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Turkish Poetry and Literature

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Nobel price to Orhan Pamuk!!!
(49 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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40.       Elisa
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 12:28 pm

For those who want to know more, here's an article from Wikipedia on the subject.

41.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 01:17 pm

if any kind of genocide was happened in Turkey,any other nations wouldnt exist in Turkey now...thousands armenians live in Turkey now...

Orhan pamuk is like a politician ..he didnt manage to be famous with his books but he is known by his lies about genocide..all turkish would support him if he would win these award by his success in writing books...he will live with his lies and award in solutide without Turkish people's support..

42.       aslan2
507 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 01:53 pm

Quoting Elisa:

For those who want to know more, here's an article from Wikipedia on the subject.


It's a biased article. It tries to present Armenian allegations of genocide as historical facts, totally ignoring

• Turkish suffering
• Armenian terrorism (then and now, in Anatolia and in America and elsewhere)
• The role of Armenian church in cultivating and financing terrorism,
• Roles of imperialist powers of the time to ethnically cleans the Turks, using Armenian nationalists,
• Armenian rebellions,
• Armenian atrocities committed under Russian uniforms,
• Armenian atrocities committed under French uniforms,
• Courts (Malta & Istanbul) acquitting the Ottoman officials,
• Statements signed by 70 historians in 1985 contradicting Armenian allegations of genocide
• Statements signed by 300+ Turkish scholars in 2001 contradicting Armenian allegations of genocide
• Large body of Ottoman archives, as well as British & American Archives contradicting Armenian allegations of genocide (see for example, www.stjohnpress.com, "Armenia: The Great Deceit. Secrets of A 'Christian' Terrorist Nation".)

The Armenian allegations are carefully packaged into otherwise undisputed Jewish Holocaust and other undisputed genocides, and truth is deliberately misrepresented in this article.

43.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 02:39 pm

Im completely agree with you Aslan2...the article was published in wikipedia is prejudiced...thak you very much for your information..

44.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 03:10 pm

Has it ever occured to any of the Turkish minds that the informaion that YOU receive ın YOUR country might be prejudice?

I for myself do not believe there has been a genocide like many European ( such as the french..) believe. I really dont think so. But I am a hundred percent sure that the information given at Turkish highschools in history lessons about this topic is faaar away from the truth.

However, what has just happened in France, is unacceptable. EVEN if it was a fact that there definately has been a genocide, it is still unbelievable that such a law can be accepted. It takes the right away for people to judge about situations for themselves and takes away their right to speak their mind (be it without harming anyone).

to cut a long story short.. I think in Europe most people look rather one-sided to the Armenian genocide. I think that what Lapinkulta says about Europe being against Turkey is very overdone, but I understand that point of view because in some aspects its true. On the other hand, I think it is about time that Turkish people also start to see that the information they generally read, is not always true. As a kid I was tought that usually the harder someone is defending himself, the more he has to hide..

I realize that in Turkey there is rather an abstract way of thinking: ıf something is not A, ıt means it is B.

But simply saying there was no genocide doesnt mean that Turkish people in the past didnt do horrible things! Saying that Turkish people did horrible things şn the past, doesnt mean Armenians didnt do horrible things! I believe there was a situation of mutual horrifying actions like they happen in (civil) wars. Probably both are to blame in the past. And if not in the past, then nowadays. For sticking so strict to the own ideas without leaving space for the other.

45.       aenigma x
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 03:38 pm

I totally agree with Deli Kizin. I find it so hard to debate issues here because of this “brick wall” that I encounter. The motto seems to be “attack is the best form of defence”. As Deli Kizin says, countries all have a history of good and bad. To list a violent history of Armenian atrocities as evidence of Turkish “innocence” is nonsense. What does it prove?

I too, do NOT believe in the mass genocide allegations, but I do believe there has been a violent history, as with most countries. Your denial of any Turkish wrongdoing throughout history does nothing to support your argument – it has the reverse effect!

Incidentally Aslan 2, you call the Jewish holocaust “undisputed”. It may interest you to know that there is in fact a large section of people who deny the Jewish holocaust! Despite eyewitness, film and material evidence, they deny THAT ever happened too!

This “brick wall” thinking completely amazes me!

46.       Jorge
3 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 05:56 pm

I'd like to give my opinion about this subject, after having read all your posts, as well as different points of view on the Turkish-Armenian stuff.

First of all, this "genocide" looks very much like the clashes between nationalists and republicans in the Spanish Civil War. If you accept the republican version, then they didn't commit any atrocity and all the murders came from the nationalist side, and viceversa for the nationalist version.

This said, it seems to me (I don't know as much about the conflict between the Ottoman Empire and Armenia as about the Spanish Civil War cause neither Turkey nor Armenia are my country) that this is exactly the same: both versions are clearly biased. The Turkish Government version isn't true nor the Armenian one: in a war, by definition of the word 'war', every side commits atrocites: it's simply too naïve to think that any Turk didn't slaughter and also that no Armenian annihilated Turk soldiers...

But don't misinterpret me, those bad acts which were commited by our ancestors don't justify in any case an affirmation nowadays such as "All Turks are cruel" or "Armenians suck". It's as if I were despised since my ancestors conquered for Spain and slaughtered in America. Nobody can blame me personally for what people who lived decades or centuries before me did. That attitude is nothing but silly and absurdly generalizing.

What is also unacceptable is any restrain to the freedom of speech: that Turkish law under which any insult to the Republic (such as suggesting the "genocide") can make you go to prison is totalitary and absurdly limiting, as the French proposal of law to go to prison for exactly the opposite reason (negating it) is. We should leave those matters for historians and politicians had better concentrate on current problems, not on remote ones.

Some Turk may post some reply at this point telling me that their Government has made archives available for historians so they can see that Turks were all good. Beforehand, I tend to think that those who were unclassified were the documents which don't give a bad image of Turkey. Secondly, even though all the archive were unclassified, normally the atrocities are not registered at all: in Spain for example many of those massacres commited between 1936 and 1939 are being discovered now, when corpses appear all together in a miserable hole... So a national archive isn't a really objective source, is it that bad to admit that your ancestors commited despisable actions? I have perfectly assumed that mine slaughtered in America, of course I'm not proud of it but I'm not ashamed of it either... It doesn't concern me actually, it's not my fault!

To end with, Orhan Pamuk is a very good writer. He supported the Armenian point of view, which you know now for me is biased exactly as the Turkish one is, so this was an arguable move by him. Anyway, want it or not, his books make Turkey increasingly popular and help your country. What it doesn't help Turkey at all is that you don't appreciate your only Nobel Prize so far and that he nearly got into prison for supporting a point of view as biased as yours. Any individual should be free to think what he/she considers is more appropriate, especially about problems which don't have a closed or mathematical solution (ethical, religious, ...). And from a literary point of view he definitely deserves this prize, as many of you have remarked in your posts. If you don't want this prize to be a political one, why don't you concentrate just on his undoubted literary skills?

47.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 05:58 pm

every country has a bad or good sides.but Turkey is the country that accepted jews who were under pressure of racism...turkish were killed in world war 1 during we are fighting against italian,greeks,british,french armenians...if somepeople think that we did genocide.they have to explain their attacks to innocent turkish people...armenian genocide allegations are just advertisements which presented in the world for ages.we dont need any other attack to refuse or prevent them...people who dont like turks know very well what will happen after they try to invasion to Turkey..French,accept it or not..your government are thieves,liar and miserable...try to do smtg for your society,forget turks..it is not your business...we dont look like algerian and african that you killed.you know turks very well.. and Antep's name was changed to Gaziantep after Turks kicked their ass in the south of Turkey...
remember these?

48.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 06:25 pm

ARMENIAN TERROR

Following the Lausanne Treaty, the 'Armenian Issue' ceased to exist. However, the Armenians of Diaspora, clinging firmly to their allegations, unleashed a series of terrorist attacks on Turkish diplomatic missions abroad as of 1970. All these attacks were masterminded by ASALA for short, the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia. Under a mask of independence, ASALA carried out ruthless and dastardly attacks. Psychologically and logistically supported by the Hinchaks, ASALA engaged in acts of terror against Turkish diplomats, representation offices and other organizations. These armed assaults rapidly escalated in a short period of time. Armenians who had assured bases for their activities in both Europe and the East, Syria and Lebanon in particular, continued their acts of terror in collaboration with Greeks and Greek Cypriots. As a result of the world wide repercussion of these armed attacks on Turkish diplomats, Armenian terror organizations changed tactics in the 1980's and began this time to collaborate with the separatist terror organizaion PKK, and later abandoned the scene to this organization.

Having proclaimed the period between April 21 and 28, 1980 as the 'Red Week', the PKK started organizing meetings to commemorate April 24 as the so-called 'Armenian Genocide Day'. At a joint press conference held in the Lebanese City of Sidon, the two terror organizations made public a joint declaration. When this initiative aroused reaction, the PKK and ASALA decided to maintain secret ties in their illegal activities. In fact, these two organizations assumed responsibility for the bomb attacks perpetrated on November 9 of the same year on the Turkish Consulate General in Strasbourg and on November 19th on the Tukish Airlines offices in Rome. Honorary membership of the Association of Armenian Writers was conferred upon separatist terrorist leader Abdullah Ocalan for his 'contributions to the idea of a Greater Armenia'.

49.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 14 Oct 2006 Sat 06:27 pm

ARMENIAN REBELLIONS AND MASSACRES

The first rebellion erupted in Erzurum, in 1890, followed by the Kumkapi demonstrations that same year; the Kayseri, Yozgat, Corum and Merzifon incidents of 1892 and 1893; the Sasun revolt of 1894; the Sublime Porte demonstration and the Zeytun rebellion that same year; the Van uprising and the occupation of the Ottoman Bank, followed by the Second Sasun revolt of 1903; the attempt on the life of Sultan Abdulhamid in 1905 and the Adana rebellion of 1909. As a result of Armenian atrocities, 100 Turks were killed in Zeytun in 1914, close on 3 thousand in the Van incidents of 1915 and some 20 thousand in the Mus incidents of 1914 and 1915.

The quelling of these rebellions by the Ottoman army was deliberately reflected to world public opinion as 'the massacre of Christians by Muslims', this as part of their propaganda to ensure that the Armenian issue acquired an international dimension. In fact, reports drawn up by British and Russian diplomatic representatives of the time, indicate that the objective of the Armenian revolutionaries was, 'to create turmoil and to trigger a reprisal by the Ottomans, thus securing the intervention of foreign countries to the goings on.' On the other hand, the diplomatic representatives of colonialist states, along with Christian missionaries dispersed throughout Anatolia, played a significant part in transmitting Armenian propaganda to Western public opinion, and on its adoption. By far, the greatest damage was wrought on the Turks by the massacres perpetrated by Armenians during World War I. During that period, Armenians were engaged in acts of espionage on behalf of Russians, evaded the call to take up arms as forseen by the declaration of mobilization, and those who had enrolled, committed 'high treason' by joining the ranks of the Russian army, not forgetting to take their arms with them as they fled. From the very outset of mobilization, Armenian gangs engaged in whole scale massacres against Turkish units; raided Turkish villages, inflicting heavy damage on the civilian population. For example, all the inhabitants of Van's Zeve village were killed by Armenians, with no discrimination whatsoever between women, children and the elderly.

In other words, committees such as Hinchak and Tashnak, and numerous terror organizations set up outside Anatolia by Britain and Russia, incited the Armenian people conducting a peaceful life in Anatolia to take action.


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