Turkey |
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Turkey in EU
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| 40. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 03:56 am |
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robyn  ?
What do you mean by İslamic country ?
İs it bad to be İslamic country ?!
For example Egypt is an İslamic country,but it even has Muslims less than Türkiya has,we have many Christians Egyptians,not knowing the percentage exactly,but maybe %25,%30 of Egyptians are Christians.
There are lots of women wearing scarves,but again woman in islamic dress can sit next to a woman in a miniskirt and low cut top without passing comment,
And,here too,if u only have an islamic marriage it is not legally binding.it is also necessary to have a registry office/formal ceremony.
But here,only for Muslims,the law allow bigamy because İslam allowing up to four wives if each accepts it and is provided for adequately.
But for none Muslims,Christians i mean,the law is not allowing it cause its not in their religion.
So that makes it İslamic country or not then ?
So i don't understand what you mean by İslamic country.
İ'm not criticizing,i am inquiring to know what does West means by islamic country?
We are İslamic,but we are having it this way.
And what is haram meat,which is not pork ?
Only pork is haram as i know,what is haram beaf and so ?
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| 41. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 04:13 am |
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Canli, you are intriguing a religious discussion. This is not only not allowed here, but also what you're saying is not the topic of this thread. Some people are critical of religious/Islamic laws, and as you said yourself, you have to accept that. I don't see a reason why this discussion should continue. This thread is to discuss Turkey and the EU, not Turkey and Islam or Egypt and Islam.
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| 42. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 05:43 am |
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Well,its not a religion discussion catwoman,its a question about something she'd said in her post,and i didn't understand it.
And as i said in my post i am not criticizing,or anything,not even discussing,but i am inquiring some information about what she said,or the Western understanding about what she said.
And i wasn't talking about Egypt and İslam,it was a comparison,about almost similar stiuation,and different understanding.
Ofcourse everyone is entitled to his opinion,but i was trying to understand her opinion first.
Being drift away from the main topic of the thread,is TC habit 
But İ was not guilty about it this time,i didn't do start it ..lol
But you are right,such a discussion is away from the main topic of this thread,and continuing in it will drive it further more.
So,roben if you can pm about my question,i would appreciated it.
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| 43. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 07:16 am |
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After Turkey became a fully westernized country in early 1900, she has been allowed to be a respected member of any organization of Western civilization, NATO membership, which is IMHO the hardest thing to be, included.
Always keep in mind that modern Turkey is widely accepted as a member of western civilization, even though she's traditionally not European. Just like Russia, Japan, or Israel.
As for the EU membership, It would be nice, as Cetin Altan says, If we were to talk about the Europe of, for instance, Golettes, Paul Eluards, Picassos who were all great personalities whose ideas still enlighten the entire world. But thanks to the Internet, we see how conservative and middle age minded the working classes of Europe are.
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| 44. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 08:37 am |
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Quoting Gizli Yuz: After Turkey became a fully westernized country in early 1900, she has been allowed to be a respected member of any organization of Western civilization, NATO membership, which is IMHO the hardest thing to be, included.
Always keep in mind that modern Turkey is widely accepted as a member of western civilization, even though she's traditionally not European. Just like Russia, Japan, or Israel.
As for the EU membership, It would be nice, as Cetin Altan says, If we were to talk about the Europe of, for instance, Golettes, Paul Eluards, Picassos who were all great personalities whose ideas still enlighten the entire world. But thanks to the Internet, we see how conservative and middle age minded the working classes of Europe are. |
What are the examples of 'middle age mindedness' of working class Europe? Let's not get emotional here, but talk with reason and facts.
There are some things I agree with you on. The EU is not all-good and all-perfect. BUT, it has the best developed economy and most freedom, tolerance, laws that are reasonable and enforced - basically it is civilized. It is not perfect and bad things are happening there, the system doesn't work all the time, but it is so far the best system possible in the human societies.
Turkey is a great candidate for membership mainly because it is based on capitalistic economy. This is what makes Turkey better then other middle-eastern countries. Also, as in western countries, Turkey is supposed to be secular. It is striving to be, but not always is and it's actually less and less so. The government must be constantly reminded by the army of keeping religion out. This is not an acceptable thing in a modern, democratic country. Society - is intolerant towards other religions or atheism, other sexual orientations, and they don't form a true democracy. Society is manipulated and brainwashed by the media and government and lacks independent opinion, it does not constitute a check and balance force for the government. Women and minorities don't have equal rights. And a lot of the country is underdeveloped. Places outside Istanbul and the west coast are really in miserable condition. No good roads, nor jobs, no education, no law enforcement and no appropriate health care. In the eastern lands, there is still feudal system.
Religious radicals and nationalism are becoming more popular and these two are a serious threat to the society.
I think that Turkey needs a lot of changes and improvement which can only make it better and have nothing to do with losing values or traditions. I think it has a lot of potential and is one of few countries in the world that are so much on the right path to a better future. I hope it won't be stopped by Turkish pride and stubbornness or by Europeans' playing political games.
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| 45. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 08:39 am |
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Quoting CANLI: robyn ?
What do you mean by İslamic country ?
İs it bad to be İslamic country ?!
For example Egypt is an İslamic country,but it even has Muslims less than Türkiya has,we have many Christians Egyptians,not knowing the percentage exactly,but maybe %25,%30 of Egyptians are Christians.
There are lots of women wearing scarves,but again woman in islamic dress can sit next to a woman in a miniskirt and low cut top without passing comment,
And,here too,if u only have an islamic marriage it is not legally binding.it is also necessary to have a registry office/formal ceremony.
But here,only for Muslims,the law allow bigamy because İslam allowing up to four wives if each accepts it and is provided for adequately.
But for none Muslims,Christians i mean,the law is not allowing it cause its not in their religion.
So that makes it İslamic country or not then ?
So i don't understand what you mean by İslamic country.
İ'm not criticizing,i am inquiring to know what does West means by islamic country?
We are İslamic,but we are having it this way.
And what is haram meat,which is not pork ?
Only pork is haram as i know,what is haram beaf and so ? |
meat that is not prepared in the correct manner is also known as haram..theres nothing wrong with islamic countries....im muslim too...to be honest this post has got way out of hand with people attacking eastern and western thinking...in western thinking an islamic country is one what is perceived(whether wrongly or rightly)as a country whereby the majority of women wear headscarves..like i said before i wasn't saying its a bad thing..just making a point that its a misconception about turkey..
femmefatal..i dont know what your problem is with the eastern way of thinking either, its not wrong to possess pride,stubbornness and ignorance are different matters, it seems to me that you are involving them into your definition of pride, also can i just ask that if you don't like turkey why you choose to use this website...
i never said turkey was a paradise and yes its economy is growing faster than countries in the eu.im sure you are more than capable of doing research in this area..
at the end of the day this post was just a translation of an interview given by a turkish person..it expresses opinion and it has the support of some(not all) turkish people..
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| 46. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 08:42 am |
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Quoting CANLI: robyn ?
What do you mean by İslamic country ?
İs it bad to be İslamic country ?!
For example Egypt is an İslamic country,but it even has Muslims less than Türkiya has,we have many Christians Egyptians,not knowing the percentage exactly,but maybe %25,%30 of Egyptians are Christians.
There are lots of women wearing scarves,but again woman in islamic dress can sit next to a woman in a miniskirt and low cut top without passing comment,
And,here too,if u only have an islamic marriage it is not legally binding.it is also necessary to have a registry office/formal ceremony.
But here,only for Muslims,the law allow bigamy because İslam allowing up to four wives if each accepts it and is provided for adequately.
But for none Muslims,Christians i mean,the law is not allowing it cause its not in their religion.
So that makes it İslamic country or not then ?
So i don't understand what you mean by İslamic country.
İ'm not criticizing,i am inquiring to know what does West means by islamic country?
We are İslamic,but we are having it this way.
And what is haram meat,which is not pork ?
Only pork is haram as i know,what is haram beaf and so ? |
and yes i view egypt as an islamic country and so do most people that i know..if bigamy is allowed for muslims but not for others then that also supports that..i'd like to know if the situation is the same in regards to christian marriages..do u need a seperate legal marriage for that too?you don't in england..anyway thats not the point here so i'll let other people carry on the rest of the debate about turkey and the eu
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| 48. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 08:46 am |
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Quoting robyn : the majority also do not follow this in the same way that an arabic or strict muslim does,many women do not wear headscarves for example,alcohol is drunk(the quantity of which is irrelevant), haram meat is eaten. |
FACT: 69% of Turkish women wear headscarfs to some level
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| 49. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 08:48 am |
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Even though Turkish economy is growing faster then other EU countries, people there are much better off then they are in Turkey. It's not this growth that's the ultimate measure of being a developed country. When a country is starting its infrastructure and modernization, it's normal that it will grow faster then the established economies.
I think what femme_fatal was referring to speaking of eastern ways of thinking, was the fact that they seem to value pride and nationalism more then reason and open-mindedness. In "eastern" ways of thinking there are certain set, untouchable rules and hierarchies that are often wrong and harmful and should be re-evaluated in a reasonable way. I think that's what she was referring to. It is possible though to have religious, traditional values and be a thinking, open-minded person, and there are such people, so I don't think that she was criticizing all of them.
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| 50. |
15 Dec 2006 Fri 08:50 am |
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Quoting femme_fatal: Quoting arabianofelix: Quoting femme_fatal: lapinkulta
i didnt understand ur post (mainly due to ur english).
u love such texts, dont u? texts full of emotions.
if a person not from turkey takes serious this sort of opinions of such turks, he/she may think that turkey is a victim of all the nations in this world. eu humiliates turkey, greece is an enemy, armenians are evil, all the central asian countries (so falsely called cousins) do not support turkey (so they automatically become traitors), russia is a monster, usa not helpful enough. these are words i hear everytime i talk a turk. i am tired of conspiracy theories.
a turk is too much proud to join eu, even though he/she is keen on being in eu. this type of thinking is very typical to the eastern mentality: i am a proud turk, proud azer, proud kazak, etc!
i wonder if people are aware of that pride brings u nowhere. it is not a positive value that could help u build a strong society. pride = emptiness! |
I totally disagree with this meaningless wording...
THE MOST UNIQUE THING ABOUT TURKS ARE THEIR PRIDE... WHO ELSE IN THE WORLD HAS SUCH PRIDE? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT PRIDE MEANS? ANY country would envy the Turks of such a charicteristic... IT'S HONOR and DIGNITY... it seems these days no one knows the meaning of these three words...and this is the 3rd time i mention the word dignity...
If we want a free and peaceful world, if we want to make the deserts bloom and man grow to greater dignity as a human being-we can do it.
--- Eleanor Roosevelt
Our dignity is not in what we do, but what we understand.
--- George Santayana
Human rights rest on human dignity. The dignity of man is an ideal worth fighting for and worth dying for.
--- Robert Maynard
Dignity consists not in possessing honors, but in the consciousness that we deserve them.
--- Aristotle
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tell me dear, how can a pride be unique? what is its value? what does it give u? a feeling that u r better than others? lets say u r a proud person, what r u proud of? r u better than me or others?
well, i ll keep to my conclusion: pride makes u stupid and gives u nothing except for the empty feeling that makes u blind to ur own faults.
why did u quote mrs roosevelt? i dont see anyconnection of her words to the pride or honor of turks.
or is it just a show off that u know a few words of wisdom?
sorry, human dignity? i totally disagree with that quotation.
i dont agree with such philosophy, its too much abstractive, not pragmatic.
honors? honor of what? honor for what?
i dont either need any type of honors,
since i dont need to honor anything or anybody, and ohh, hmmm, dont honor me too.
i live a simple life, i live on earth as a simple human being, not up high in the sky with all the honors and pride or dignity and other blah-blah. no wonder that some nations dont cope here on earth because of living in their world of imagination.
well, what can i say? keep up to ur honors and pride and all the fantasies.
cheers |
first of all, i asked that you first look athe meaning of the three words... NOT in a mini dictionary, in an encyclopedia... a human is nothing without them!
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sorry canli..i answered here..hope i will be excused from detention 