General/Off-topic |
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Marriage between two faiths
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 06:31 pm |
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Quoting mltm: I hope we will always have things that we do not agree on, because the day I can not find anthing to disagree on with you, my existance in the forum won't have the meaning it has today 
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Hehehehe! Ditto
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 06:38 pm |
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Your implying is silly. I taught a lot Turkish to the user Deli and Lady in Red and Yabanci09 (an old timer) for instance. I also posted several explanations regarding the Turkish grammar. I did a lot of translations. And I helped many foreigners in the chat room. FOR FREE. Besides my existense here is not worthy of drawing attention. I am a very ordinary Turkish member here. And probably not different than any other Turkish male members who check "member profiles".
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 06:43 pm |
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Quoting Gizli Yuz: Your implying is silly. I taught a lot Turkish to the user Deli and Lady in Red and Yabanci09 (an old timer) for instance. I also posted several explanations regarding the Turkish grammar. I did a lot of translations. And I helped many foreigners in the chat room. FOR FREE. |
Aferin sana 
Quoting Gizli Yuz: And probably not different than any other Turkish male members who check "member profiles".
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Yes, there ARE rather a lot of you 
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 07:36 pm |
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Quoting bydand: As I said before the main reason I left was because I was about to be deleted. |
You had no evidence to think so whatsoever, it was purely your own assumption (especially that I had apologized to you "if you felt like I was making personal comments" after that argument).
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 07:39 pm |
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Quoting Gizli Yuz: "All you want to hear is praise and admiration for your country and for "Turkishness".
I am afraid, that's the feeling of a big majority Turks. |
That is OK, but I can criticize it.
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 07:51 pm |
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Quoting mltm: But on the contrary, I felt insulted in the name of the modern people of Turkey.
(...)
My reactions could be extreme for some, it might be true because I am sensible about Turkey in the international platform more than certain maybe. |
You are NOT sensible, more like over-sensitive and nationalistic. I know that you probably take it as an asset that you "feel for the nation", but I think it's quite a primitive tribal behavior. You should only take responsibility for yourself and not for the whole nation. Belonging and conformity to a certain tribe might give you security, but your unconditional admiration of it sounds a lot like a communism style philosophy.
There may be certain things that are misunderstood about your country, but some facts really speak for themselves.
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 07:56 pm |
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Quoting Gizli Yuz: Quoting aenigma x: You are on a good website then. People are here because they love Turkey. There are many many threads here where people praise the beautiful things about Turkey. Enjoy. |
Actually that's why I am trying to understand Catwoman's existence in this website. There's a contradiction between the nature of this website (As you stated above) and Catwoman's behaviour. |
You completely misunderstood Aenigma's point....! She wanted to say that you don't need to feel insecure about being criticized here, because the sole fact that we are here shows that we find something worthy about your country. You can also see that in countless threads in which there's lots of praise, which you can go ahead and enjoy...
However, (I know it's not a norm in your country), but in a free world, it's OK to express criticism, so, sorry... you gotta get used to it. Even if I had no other reasons, my sole desire to criticize Turkey would be enough of a reason for me to be here. I don't need your approval to say what I want to say  .
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 08:03 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: You are NOT sensible, more like over-sensitive and nationalistic. I know that you probably take it as an asset that you "feel for the nation", but I think it's quite a primitive tribal behavior. You should only take responsibility for yourself and not for the whole nation. Belonging and conformity to a certain tribe might give you security, but your unconditional admiration of it sounds a lot like a communism style philosophy.
There may be certain things that are misunderstood about your country, but some facts really speak for themselves. |
super! nothing to add!
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 08:07 pm |
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Ok, criticize Turkey but also be aware that you will always find someone who will object to it when they think it's not the way it's.
It's not a tribal behaviour, it's patriotism, and nationalism and they're the qualifications which have made turkish nation strong and united for thousands of years. And this frustrates very much EU and USA.
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 08:19 pm |
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Quoting mltm: I do not understand why this turned to such a big debate. |
Heh? Then what are you arguing here?
Quoting mltm: What me and Gizliyuz did was to correct a possible misunderstanding. If here was a place where just turkish people visited, I wouldn't worry too much about such small statements on Turkey, and I would focus on other things, but as here is a place where people from all over the world visit with little or without knowledge about Turkey, we try to make everything clear to the eyes of the foreigners. |
I think you're again forgetting that what "foreigners" think of your country is much more dependent on your behavior and type of arguments you make then what you actually say. They really don't need your opinions to judge for themselves what goes on in Turkey. They are very much used to having their own opinions and looking for evidence before making judgments. So your "defence" of Turkey is what I (and probably many others) see like a nationalistic trait.
Quoting mltm: Aslı is from Istanbul, but so are me and Gizliyüz. We did not claim that she lied, but I had just wanted to correct one of her statements which looked like a very small detail, but for me an important one, but later it turned to such a big deal as if I was trying to hide the truths about Turkey. |
Maybe you didn't intend to make it sound like "you know better" and "she shouldn't say such things about Turkey", but you actually did.
Quoting mltm: I do not and can never deny that backward traditions exist in Turkey, and women are subjected to second class traitments, what I was not ok with was the image given to educated and cultured people. As if the mentality of vast turkish people consisted of backward things. |
This is what you should have said instead of your previous comments.
Quoting mltm: If it were like this, if the modern people of Turkey were just a negligible minority, Turkey wouldn't be this Turkey today. It would be one of the backward Islamic countries in the middle-east. We wouldn't find the millions to manifest against the gouvernement. |
That is true, and that is acknowledged. However, Turkey still has a long way to go but without self reflection and criticism, it will not get too far.
Quoting mltm: So, it has nothing to do with not being able to stand any criticism, but rather to make things about Turkey clear. |
This is what you think, but that's not true. There's countless evidence to prove it.
Quoting mltm: In a germany forum or in an english forum, it's true you wouldn't find people worrying about the image of their countries so much, because they don't need to worry about it, as they are a part of the European Union which rules the world together with the USA today and they are not muslim. So, why would the power holders worry about their image? They are not the ones who are subjected to unfairnesses and regional dirty games. |
That is surely part of it. However, not all powers in the history were so self-critical and healthily confident. Many great powers did not accept self criticism and that's one of the reasons that led to their collapse. The deeper reason is the type of social structures that today's powers have become. They are plural, liberal democracies - so far this is the best possible system on Earth. It is one of the things that make them so good. Instead of whining, as they do now, countries that strive to become better should start behaving better instead of constantly justifying their rather backward traditions by their inferior economies.
Do not revert into the position of an innocent victim, because you're not one. Whenever Turkey has power over other groups, they use it unethically, they do not behave like the developed world which (according to you) accepts criticism from those who are seen as inferior.
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09 Jul 2007 Mon 08:28 pm |
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Quoting mltm: Ok, criticize Turkey but also be aware that you will always find someone who will object to it when they think it's not the way it's. |
Quoting mltm: It's not a tribal behaviour, it's patriotism, and nationalism and they're the qualifications which have made turkish nation strong and united for thousands of years. And this frustrates very much EU and USA. |
There is a difference between healthy patriotism (where you criticize bad things because you care that they get better) and nationalism (where you think that any criticism is bad).
I think your belief that nationalism frustrates US and EU is very much of a feel-good rationalization of your attitude. I don't think you actually examined this belief. It's some sort of reasonable-sounding explanation that fits your desires.. .
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