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Please explane why????
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| 50. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:12 pm |
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I do understand your point, To some degree you are right. When does a mass of "cells" become a "life"...but if you will for just one moment, think of it in other terms...when is a baby able to survive outside the womb? I have a 10 year old, he can't survive realistically without me. Do you think it is too late to change my mind..I have rights you know and he is really getting to be a bit of a pain.
Yes human life does start from a mass of cells but even from the very first cell division, there is a purpose and a genetic destiny for that "mass of cells". What would be a resonable time to say...ok, it is a human life therefore you can't have an abortion? I have ultrasound film of my son when I was 12 weeks pregnant. He already had arms, legs, hands, feet, there is brain activity and developement so there must be thought, maybe feelings however primal, a heartbeat. I think the ability to "survive outside of the womb" is probably not the best indicator or argument as to when an abortion should be deemed as inappropriate.
Of course, women should have rights to choose, but choose what? There is so much birth control available, so much education, so many people wanting to adopt, so many advances in medical science to help pregnant mothers who have health conditions, intra uterine surgery to correct so many genetic problems. I just think there are better choices. As humans we are better than this.
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| 51. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:39 pm |
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Quoting Elisabeth: I do understand your point, To some degree you are right. When does a mass of "cells" become a "life"...but if you will for just one moment, think of it in other terms...when is a baby able to survive outside the womb? I have a 10 year old, he can't survive realistically without me. Do you think it is too late to change my mind..I have rights you know and he is really getting to be a bit of a pain.
Yes human life does start from a mass of cells but even from the very first cell division, there is a purpose and a genetic destiny for that "mass of cells". What would be a resonable time to say...ok, it is a human life therefore you can't have an abortion? I have ultrasound film of my son when I was 12 weeks pregnant. He already had arms, legs, hands, feet, there is brain activity and developement so there must be thought, maybe feelings however primal, a heartbeat. I think the ability to "survive outside of the womb" is probably not the best indicator or argument as to when an abortion should be deemed as inappropriate.
Of course, women should have rights to choose, but choose what? There is so much birth control available, so much education, so many people wanting to adopt, so many advances in medical science to help pregnant mothers who have health conditions, intra uterine surgery to correct so many genetic problems. I just think there are better choices. As humans we are better than this. |
I apreciate your obviously thoughtful response and i think you do have some valid points which are worth conderation. However i do not accept your arguement about a childs inability to survive by itself with the example of your son that you quoted. I think that to think of the issue in terms of that is to open it up too much and make it too general.
The issue here is of babies or not babies yet depending upon how you view it. By survive i mean at what point does the child become viable. I would argue that if the child is not developed sufficiently that it would be not able to live then it would not be fair to keep the child alive just to satisfy its parents or indeed wider societies wants.
I understand that at a 12 weeks scan it is possible to work out arms,legs etc however to my knowledge the brain is not sufficiently deveoped and not even 'hooked up' if you will forgive my crude wording to the nervous system yet so to say that the 'baby' is thinking,feeling etc is simply not true scientifically. I suppose that is why so many countries globally use this as their cut off point. However where i live in England the cut of point is 24 weeks which is considered by some doctors to be way too late as the baby may be viable once outside the womb probably why as we speak and in the coming months there will be public and political debate about the time limit being lowered as when it was set at 24 weeks (around 1989/199 that was appropriate for the reaches of science then but it may not be now as there have been some cases recently of babies having viability who are born at 23 or 23.5 weeks.
Having said all that i would like to point out that only around 10% of terminations are carried out on or around the 24 week period so it does not account for the vast majority of women who choose to have a termination.(in the UK)
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| 52. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:40 pm |
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Quoting Elisabeth: Of course, women should have rights to choose, but choose what? There is so much birth control available, so much education, so many people wanting to adopt, so many advances in medical science to help pregnant mothers who have health conditions, intra uterine surgery to correct so many genetic problems. I just think there are better choices. As humans we are better than this. |
Your point at birth control is very true when talking about 'accidents' or even in case used birth control fails. One can use the morning-after pill to name one.
However, in case of rape or incest I think that's not an option. Neither - for me - would be adoption in that case, knowing I would have to carry a baby in my body made by violence, maybe of a man I don't know of if he has psychic/genetic diseases etc. I don't think it is fair to punish a woman with nine months pregnancy, the pain of giving birth, complications, nausea etc in cases like this.
When talking about genetic diseases and treatments of uterine surgery, there are many genetic diseases you can't treat. How about Klinefelter-syndrome, Rett-syndrome, fragile X-syndrome to name just a few?
When talking about serieus danger for the mother, what a choice: abortion or knowing the mother will probably not survive the birth of her child and making it a half-orphan from the first breath...!
Don't think I am pro-abortion, I am not. I am pro-choice! Meaning every woman should have the choice and the opportunity to an abortion if she decides so. And no-one is in my view allowed to stop her because it's her body.
And yes, if you use it as a form of birth control you are - nicely said - silly. Besides celebacy women like these should think of sterilization.
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| 53. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:45 pm |
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[QUOTE SOURCE=Trudy
And yes, if you use it as a form of birth control you are - nicely said - silly. Besides celebacy women like these should think of sterilization.
I don't think sterilisation is the answer here,i think education of children at a young enough age through school and parents on the value of contraception,how and where to get it from.Not just to protect the girls from pregnancy but also to protect them both from STI's.After all girls don't become pregnant on their own.
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| 54. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:50 pm |
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I agree with your point on being pro-choice. I don't think my views should be the burden of other women who feel they have no other choice. I was faced with the possiblity of dying during my pregnancy, but I never concidered abortion. Quite honestly, it never entered my mind. Of course, I understand how personal that decision was and many women wouldn't have made the same choice. But I was given very little hope of survival and for whatever reason, I defied my doctors and my son and I are both healthy and happy. You never know what life has in store for you and sometimes, the doctors are wrong.
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| 55. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:53 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting Elisabeth: Of course, women should have rights to choose, but choose what? There is so much birth control available, so much education, so many people wanting to adopt, so many advances in medical science to help pregnant mothers who have health conditions, intra uterine surgery to correct so many genetic problems. I just think there are better choices. As humans we are better than this. |
Your point at birth control is very true when talking about 'accidents' or even in case used birth control fails. One can use the morning-after pill to name one.
However, in case of rape or incest I think that's not an option. Neither - for me - would be adoption in that case, knowing I would have to carry a baby in my body made by violence, maybe of a man I don't know of if he has psychic/genetic diseases etc. I don't think it is fair to punish a woman with nine months pregnancy, the pain of giving birth, complications, nausea etc in cases like this.
When talking about genetic diseases and treatments of uterine surgery, there are many genetic diseases you can't treat. How about Klinefelter-syndrome, Rett-syndrome, fragile X-syndrome to name just a few?
When talking about serieus danger for the mother, what a choice: abortion or knowing the mother will probably not survive the birth of her child and making it a half-orphan from the first breath...!
Don't think I am pro-abortion, I am not. I am pro-choice! Meaning every woman should have the choice and the opportunity to an abortion if she decides so. And no-one is in my view allowed to stop her because it's her body.
And yes, if you use it as a form of birth control you are - nicely said - silly. Besides celebacy women like these should think of sterilization. |
+1000000000 
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| 56. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 06:59 pm |
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I agree women who use abortion as a form of birth control are being very careless to put in mildley but i don't think condemnation is the answer,i think education is. I am sure if you show people how to use contraception and where to get it from then they would use it. Of course to stop themselves having problems with STI's as well as to stop being in the situation where they are facing the prospect of abortion because they do not want the child.No one WANTS to be in that position.It is a very difficult place to be in i imagine and i feel very strongly that is is not up to others to sit in judgement pointing the finger.
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| 57. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 07:03 pm |
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Quoting SERA_2005: I don't think sterilisation is the answer here,i think education of children at a young enough age through school and parents on the value of contraception,how and where to get it from.Not just to protect the girls from pregnancy but also to protect them both from STI's.After all girls don't become pregnant on their own. |
True, if talking about normal pregnancies (e.g. no rape, no genetic untreatable diseases) but education won't help when a man is overpowering you. The girl/woman knows she can get pregnant or have an STD. Should she use birth control all her life in case that very bad scenario happens? Even if she does not a have a partner? Can she force him to use a condom? I don't think so. (In fact, I know she can't force him, from own experience. And I don't mean the STD!)
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| 58. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 07:05 pm |
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Quoting SERA_2005: I agree women who use abortion as a form of birth control are being very careless to put in mildley but i don't think condemnation is the answer,i think education is. I am sure if you show people how to use contraception and where to get it from then they would use it. Of course to stop themselves having problems with STI's as well as to stop being in the situation where they are facing the prospect of abortion because they do not want the child.No one WANTS to be in that position.It is a very difficult place to be in i imagine and i feel very strongly that is is not up to others to sit in judgement pointing the finger. |
I don't know how realistic it is to say not to judge people. We are all guilty of that, and in reality we are always judging situations and analyzing them from different perspectives. This forum is a good example of that. How you express your judgement is another story. You can do it in a way where you get your point across and it is constructive...or you can say it in a hurtful way where it is destructive. I always hope that my opinions give people another way of looking at things.
In saying that, I think this has been a very constructive forum.
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| 59. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 07:11 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: QUOTE]
True, if talking about normal pregnancies (e.g. no rape, no genetic untreatable diseases) but education won't help when a man is overpowering you. The girl/woman knows she can get pregnant or have an STD. Should she use birth control all her life in case that very bad scenario happens? Even if she does not a have a partner? Can she force him to use a condom? I don't think so. (In fact, I know she can't force him, from own experience. And I don't mean the STD!) |
Of course i am not saying a women should use contraception her whole life just incase she is to get attacked or raped because obviously that is absurd.What i am saying however is if a woman is in a relationship and he refuses to use a condom she needs to take matters into her own hands,realise she is in charge of her own body and go and get herself protected eg be put on the pill or injections. I would also ask what is the man thinking by refusing to use a condom,he obviously has no respect for himself or his partner and if i was in that situation that man would be kicked into touch very quickly!
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| 60. |
18 Oct 2007 Thu 07:19 pm |
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Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting SERA_2005: I agree women who use abortion as a form of birth control are being very careless to put in mildley but i don't think condemnation is the answer,i think education is. I am sure if you show people how to use contraception and where to get it from then they would use it. Of course to stop themselves having problems with STI's as well as to stop being in the situation where they are facing the prospect of abortion because they do not want the child.No one WANTS to be in that position.It is a very difficult place to be in i imagine and i feel very strongly that is is not up to others to sit in judgement pointing the finger. |
I don't know how realistic it is to say not to judge people. We are all guilty of that, and in reality we are always judging situations and analyzing them from different perspectives. This forum is a good example of that. How you express your judgement is another story. You can do it in a way where you get your point across and it is constructive...or you can say it in a hurtful way where it is destructive. I always hope that my opinions give people another way of looking at things.
In saying that, I think this has been a very constructive forum. |
I agree with you here Elizabeth,i think its important that we all feel free enough here and in the rest of society to offer up our opinion what ever that may be without fear or being shot down. It is for precicely this reason that it sadens me when i see people who offer up their problem/situation in the hope of being offered help and support by other people only to find that they are condemed and hear words such as 'murder' being thrown around as if its appropriate to damn people so absolutely with having very little or no knowledge of the situation that is real for that person at that time.
Judgeing others is so easy but the real question is would we like others to sit there and judge us so harshly.I tend to think the answer is no and i only wish some people would take that into account when they consider themselves without a second thought 'holier than thou'.
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