The way I understood you, benefits of the family outrate benefits of individual. Right? So, it can be interpreted like: it doesn´t matter if you are happy in your marriage as long as you see to all the duties you agreed to, be it cooking or earning money.

 

I objected to your estimating the happiness of marriage by referring to the small number of divorces. We´ve already discussed that and i´m afraid we´ll have to agree to differ here, I still abide by the thought that "not getting a divorce doesn´t mean you´re happy."

OK here goes again:

 

First of all I see some people are viewing this issue through "European" glasses which actually makes them blind, you can not have an objective discussion if you are so dogmatically convinced you have achieved higher moral standards.

 

There isn´t empirical data that shows arranged marriages are worse than so called love marriages, social and psycologic stuff don´t work like physics. And on the contrary one would see lower divorce rates for arranged marriages anyway. Of course that is a result of social structure however what I am trying to say is please get off your high horses and stop acting like you are the judicator of a universal truth.

 

Women being suppressed doesn´t have much to do with the marriage being arranged or not. Oppression of women is about education, wealth, social status etc. rather than how those two people got married.

 

And finally this is why arranged marriages worked beautifully in the past: "Nikahta keramet vardır". Means there is wonders in marriage. People were married off at an early age. They would be virgins, both physically and mentally. Thus they would be very speacial for each other. Add the fact that agricultural lifestyle needs man and woman work side by side they would become friends, coworkers etc. Add the experience of raising children together, rather than dumping them in some daycare center.

When I look at my elderly relatives, I see purity, and a lifelong companionship which people lack nowadays. I don´t want so called European values seep into the minds of my people and poision them, turning them into Dudu seeking empty shells at the age of 40.

 

 

no, not really. Among my Turkish friends it was only the guys who cheated, never the gals - but I´m talking about my group of friends, not about objective statistics

OK here goes again:

 

First of all I see some people are viewing this issue through "European" glasses which actually makes them blind, you can not have an objective discussion if you are so dogmatically convinced you have achieved higher moral standards.

 

Likewise it can be said that some other people are viewing thius issue through "non-European" glasses which actually makes them blind and you can´t have an objective discussion if you are so dogmatically convinced you have achieved higher moral standards

 

There isn´t empirical data that shows arranged marriages are worse than so called love marriages, social and psycologic stuff don´t work like physics. And on the contrary one would see lower divorce rates for arranged marriages anyway. Of course that is a result of social structure however what I am trying to say is please get off your high horses and stop acting like you are the judicator of a universal truth.

 

I don´t think anyone here believes they´ve grasped universal truth, what we do is present our point of view based on our experience and perception of the world. I said before that the rate of divorce cannot be considered as point of reference. In Ireland divorces were legalised in 1995. It doesn´t mean all the marriages before were successful.

 

Women being suppressed doesn´t have much to do with the marriage being arranged or not. Oppression of women is about education, wealth, social status etc. rather than how those two people got married.

 

There are numerous factors that influence supression of women. In societies where marriage is considered a duty, women are more likely to persevere just for the sake of social opinion.

 

(...)

When I look at my elderly relatives, I see purity, and a lifelong companionship which people lack nowadays. I don´t want so called European values seep into the minds of my people and poision them, turning them into Dudu seeking empty shells at the age of 40.

 

My family is European and I see how beautiful their relationships are for some. Among my parents´ brothers and sisters (6 on my father´s side and 1 on my mother´s) all marriages have been wonderful but for two. These two aunts had to put up with abusive husbands their parents made them marry. they wouldn´t divorce them because back in the day it was considered improper.

 

I don´t understand your dislike for women wanting to have some fun at 40. What´s wrong with that? I see you´re a traditionalist who believes that women should marry, stay at home and raise children instead of dropping them off to daytime care. If that´s what floats your boat, fine. Just don´t assume that´s what everyone wants. You´re accusing evil westerners of believing to have achieved higher moral ground, while you´re doing the same.

 

 

theory of probability advises us that at least some of such men should cheat with married women... Maybe you just dont know everything about your friends?

 

 

That is absurd.  What is being happy? Some people are never happy as their expectations are unreasonable and unrealistic.  They are always looking to other fields, or greener pastures.  Very few are able to appreciate the gifts they already have. How many ever savor the moment, pass beautiful fragrant roses by and never realize they have passed a truly ecstatic etherial moment? 

 

Exactly what I said - definitions of happiness vary. For some it´s a husband/wife and children, for some it´s money and career, for some it´s an open relationship, or homosexual one, or a partnership. Some like to dominate, some prefer being submissive etc. The point is how can you assume that parents know what´s best for their children. Sure, it works when the children are not mature yet. However, once they grow up they become individual people with their own needs, desires and ethics. They say you raise your kids just to let them go at one point. That´s why I believe that they should be given freedom in deciding whom to marry or what career to choose. I don´t see what is wrong with that.

 

Of course one should honor their committments.....isn´t that why you make them?  You seem to have such a gloomy view of things. How about thinking promise, vow, committment...expressing love to another instead of performing a duty.  I guess you see cooking as something horrible?  Some consider it an art form.

 

I agree about honouring committments that you make. But people change and circumstances change. If you liked something at 20 doesn´t mean you still like it at 40. I can´t agree that you should stick by your word regardless of situation. If you promise to be a good wife/husband but later on learn something about your spouse that is against your system of values, why should you still want to be in that marriage? Don´t forget it takes two to tango, if one side breaks their committment, doesn´t it mean the other side is free from their promise?

 

As for cooking - that´s definitely something I don´t enjoy. I don´t mind eating though especially if somebody else cooks

OK here goes again:

 

First of all I see some people are viewing this issue through "European" glasses which actually makes them blind, you can not have an objective discussion if you are so dogmatically convinced you have achieved higher moral standards.

 

There isn´t empirical data that shows arranged marriages are worse than so called love marriages, social and psycologic stuff don´t work like physics. And on the contrary one would see lower divorce rates for arranged marriages anyway. Of course that is a result of social structure however what I am trying to say is please get off your high horses and stop acting like you are the judicator of a universal truth.

 

Women being suppressed doesn´t have much to do with the marriage being arranged or not. Oppression of women is about education, wealth, social status etc. rather than how those two people got married.

 

And finally this is why arranged marriages worked beautifully in the past: "Nikahta keramet vardır". Means there is wonders in marriage. People were married off at an early age. They would be virgins, both physically and mentally. Thus they would be very speacial for each other. Add the fact that agricultural lifestyle needs man and woman work side by side they would become friends, coworkers etc. Add the experience of raising children together, rather than dumping them in some daycare center.

When I look at my elderly relatives, I see purity, and a lifelong companionship which people lack nowadays. I don´t want so called European values seep into the minds of my people and poision them, turning them into Dudu seeking empty shells at the age of 40.

 I truelly agree with what you have written, especially the fact that rest of the world´s customes, cultures and other civilization habits are being judged through european eyes. I come from South Africa, where women and men have different statuses and marriage all together is seen differently and is valued differently than in the western culture, but for some odd reason we get labelled that our traditions are "babaric" or "uncivilized"... but the question is "according to who are they uncivilized?

 

according to those who had more power and money at the moment of setting definitions. all other will have either to prove that they can belong to that top caste or create own scale and become strong enough to play some role.

 

Because I also look at my great elders and they have been married since they were very young and still are. Unlike the western worlds where people are changing their partners every 5 seconds and divorcing as if it is going out of fashion.

 

we all may find polarities in cultures and discuss them till the end of the world. and it is non-productive. Indeed we may show others the good side of any custom and rule and it will be uniting origin. Though, there really are some rules, traditions and customs that just lost the sense over time.

 

I don´t think it is a problem merely the eastern world is facing, but rather every world that is non-european.

 

  I know I am going off the topic a little  bit, but my point is that people should really stop with judging other cultures, because your judgement will ALWAYS be biast. 

 

judgement is always biased bec it is based on smth and we may always doubt that base. 

 

A women who has gotten dowry and has a different cultural marriage has nothing to do with her social status, her education nor the strength of her mind.

 

of course nothing to do with all of that. it originates from ancient believes, rules and traditions. Maybe people that time knew more, were more connected to nature, God or whatever you call it. Or maybe just knew less. But for sure that lived in different environment and had to fit.

So what if you are in an arrangement marriage? So what if you choose your own partner?

 

nothing bad in any way. just if it is your decision, it is your responsibility. that is what it is about. but from other hand - you can blame yourself only. and that is hard, painful and scaring.

 

It doesn´t make your marriage more significant than the other. Yes, it is different and yes it is a foreign concept for your european brain, but it does not make it any less loving, faithful, caring, compassionate and most of all superior than any other marriage.

That is all I have to say,  I completely agree with Yersu, totally