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Is there no end to this madness?
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| 60. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 08:01 pm |
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Quoting incişka: I think these problems are mostly because the civil muslims are ignorant about their religions. Many of them havent read the whole Quran for themselves or never pondered over a verse from the Quran and a hadith that they read. It is all left to the religious seniors/authorities' comments and decisions, as if the other ppl dont have their own brains to think and decide. And those seniors/authorities (or whatever they can be called), carried away with the pleasure of power they have over these ignorant ppl, do whatever they want and whatever that sounds right to them! Of course, there may be points that one cannot understand without the comments of someone else, but they should be careful who they are taking the comments from. This is not only to do with Islam. Christianity experienced this case centuries ago as well, with the power of churches over ppl. The difference is that the Chritianity sorted it out but Islam still suffers it. |
A lot of good points incişka, however that problem still exists in Christianity today. All one has to do is Look at the Christian Right movement in the USA today. It also exists in India with the
BJP
who "Hindu nationalist groups continue to arm civilians in Gujarat and many other Indian states. Instead of cracking down on these groups, the Gujarat state Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government has included the distribution of arms as part of its election manifesto."
TheocracyWatch
Or look at the
Christian Zionists
I think the answer is educated and informed people, instead of lazy brainwashed propagandized people.
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| 61. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 08:01 pm |
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Quoting incişka: I think these problems are mostly because the civil muslims are ignorant about their religions. Many of them havent read the whole Quran for themselves or never pondered over a verse from the Quran and a hadith that they read. It is all left to the religious seniors/authorities' comments and decisions, as if the other ppl dont have their own brains to think and decide. And those seniors/authorities (or whatever they can be called), carried away with the pleasure of power they have over these ignorant ppl, do whatever they want and whatever that sounds right to them! Of course, there may be points that one cannot understand without the comments of someone else, but they should be careful who they are taking the comments from. This is not only to do with Islam. Christianity experienced this case centuries ago as well, with the power of churches over ppl. The difference is that the Chritianity sorted it out but Islam still suffers it. |
I agree with you inciska...I think all three of the major monotheistic religions have gone thru a similar experience. If you think about it...Islam started about 500 years after Christianity, so it needs to catch up a bit. But I think all religions have the potential for being used in a negative way...at anytime.
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| 62. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 08:05 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting incişka: Quoting KeithL: I recently read a book that made it sound as if the islam religion was made for arabs. In the book, Muhammed was quoted as saying that the Jews had their book, the Christians had their book and this was book was for the Arabs. |
what book is that? and who is the author? |
I will find it for you. It was a flattering book on Islam by the way. |
If i were you i would not try to find that FLATTERING book  
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| 63. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 08:18 pm |
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Quoting alameda: look at your post in this thread
"13. catwoman
3957 posts 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:06 am
Quoting ciko:
oki doki i went to mosque today so i feel like i have to defend Islam
So THAT'S how it works! You go to the mosque and come back brainwashed! "
I think the fact that you don't even realize or recognize how your comments are is a serious problem. You have serious issues with Islam yourself and can hardly be considered neutral participant.
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Well, alameda, I think I made a good logical point in my post. Yes, maybe I am not neutral, I have my opinions, but if somebody has a reasonable point, I do give them credit for it.
I think religious people like you just have to get used to the fact that some people don't agree with you.
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| 64. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 08:21 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: look at your post in this thread
"13. catwoman
3957 posts 01 Feb 2008 Fri 08:06 am
Quoting ciko:
oki doki i went to mosque today so i feel like i have to defend Islam
So THAT'S how it works! You go to the mosque and come back brainwashed! "
I think the fact that you don't even realize or recognize how your comments are is a serious problem. You have serious issues with Islam yourself and can hardly be considered neutral participant.
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Well, alameda, I think I made a good logical point in my post. Yes, maybe I am not neutral, I have my opinions, but if somebody has a reasonable point, I do give them credit for it.
I think religious people like you just have to get used to the fact that some people don't agree with you. |
I have never expected everyone to agree with me, I do expect to be treated with respect and dignity. As for my religiosity, that is my personal issue. I have never proclaimed here exactly what I practice, or if I even practice. My point is: mutual respect is in order, if we want a peaceful world.
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| 65. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 08:26 pm |
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Quoting alameda: I have never expected everyone to agree with me, I do expect to be treated with respect and dignity. As for my religiosity, that is my personal issue. I have never proclaimed here exactly what I practice, or if I even practice. My point is: mutual respect is in order, if we want a peaceful world. |
I would stress the word mutual here. I have not offended anybody in my post, I joked about what ciko said, maybe being a bit sarcastic about religion there, but I am free to think and say that maybe the mosque brainwashes people, don't you think? You again took it as an insult!
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| 66. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 09:12 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: ....I would stress the word mutual here. I have not offended anybody in my post, I joked about what ciko said, maybe being a bit sarcastic about religion there, but I am free to think and say that maybe the mosque brainwashes people, don't you think? You again took it as an insult! |
Your post was "So THAT'S how it works! You go to the mosque and come back brainwashed! " <--< Note: there was no maybe in it.
"I have not offended anybody in my post" <--< are you sure?
This is not a matter of what you can do in the name of "Free Speech", it's rather a matter of good manners. You know,
Etiquette
In this forum we are dealing with an international community that have different standards of social behavior. We can't expect everyone to understand sarcastic humor.
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| 67. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 11:06 pm |
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Quoting alameda: Your post was "So THAT'S how it works! You go to the mosque and come back brainwashed! " <--< Note: there was no maybe in it.
"I have not offended anybody in my post" <--< are you sure?
This is not a matter of what you can do in the name of "Free Speech", it's rather a matter of good manners. You know,
Etiquette
In this forum we are dealing with an international community that have different standards of social behavior. We can't expect everyone to understand sarcastic humor. |
Alameda, I didn't attack anybody personally. I think that we should respect people, but we should be free (in a free society) to express our views about ideologies or religions. I realize that it may hurt your feelings, but in a free society, you have to adjust to this situation and learn that I have not meant anything bad towards "good" muslims and I am criticizing those muslims who offend my values of respect towards other people.
Whenever we criticize something, we may be offending someone. However, it is my constitutional right to be able to do so and I believe that a mature person can handle criticism if it pertains to her/him, and to know when this criticism is not directed to her/him, but to other people even if it's from their group.
When I criticize certain ideas and events, I believe that I am driven by basic human decency and equality and I would hope that every decent person feels similarly about it. I think that some people have a problem being critical towards people from their own group... but that's not my problem and it will not stop me from exercising my free speech right.
Your etiquette is basically political correctness, which I don't care about.
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| 68. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 11:19 pm |
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Quoting alameda:
Your post was "So THAT'S how it works! You go to the mosque and come back brainwashed! " <--< Note: there was no maybe in it.
"I have not offended anybody in my post" <--< are you sure?
This is not a matter of what you can do in the name of "Free Speech", it's rather a matter of good manners. You know,
Etiquette
In this forum we are dealing with an international community that have different standards of social behavior. We can't expect everyone to understand sarcastic humor. |
Wouldn't you have to say that it’s all rather subjective alameda? Just because you find something offensive doesn’t mean the next person will.
A good analogy of this would be how your consistent defense of Adonis. Many of us have a completely different view on his behavior than you do. Maybe he was respectful to you…good for you….but he did not bestow that same honor on anyone who dared to disagree with him.
Anyway, if you are going to criticize one member for not following rules of etiquette then you should at least apply the same standard to everyone, otherwise it is hard to take what you say seriously.
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| 69. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 11:37 pm |
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We can find worse cases here. If you find the example between Catwoman and Ciko to be offenseive and disrespectful, I think your not reading the threads in the right context. I purposely added to this thread today because i thought it was an example of differing views that stayed non-confrontational.
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| 70. |
17 Mar 2008 Mon 11:55 pm |
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I would definitely agree that there are some examples of lack of mutual understanding (although I still would like to see what exactly they are), but what I find very strange is that Alameda keeps on talking about mutual respect... yet, she never mentions anything that the other side might have done wrong :-S. According to her they are always right about everything and it's always all our fault.... This is hardly fair and far from true.
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