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Progressive Muslim Women
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1.       catwoman
8933 posts
 20 Jun 2008 Fri 09:55 pm

Well... I just stumbled on some material about this lady that I never heard of before - Shazia Mirza and I thought "Wow!" This is amazing! A Muslim woman, born in the UK who remained a Muslim but became a stand-up comedian (of course) against the will of her parents. She refused to be put in a box and to be told what she should believe and how she should practice her religion. She speaks her mind about arranged marriages, separation of women and men, the treatment of girls... etc. Interestingly enough, she gets harassed and abused most by Muslims, especially Muslim men!

Shazia Mirza, audio files page

If you know of some other progressive Muslim women, let us know!

2.       libralady
5152 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 01:06 am

If I am not wrong, I believe she is also working with the group that have been set up by the Government to deal with forced marriages and missing girls who would normally have been expected to enter into forced or arranged marriages.

3.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 10:55 am

Quoting tamikidakika:

One of them was even elected to presidency (which has never happened in your ultra mega progressive holy christian country)



Hey, that's not fair - I'm living in an ultra mega progressive holy christian country and the president is a woman

4.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:18 am

Quoting tamikidakika:


does that substitute the lack of woman president in Poland?



Actually the role of president in Poland is more of a representational. There's not much power president has. Yet, I don't see a woman president anytime soon in Poland. Not many women are interested in running for presidency. But the ones in Parliament are pretty influential. Besides, I don't see how being president represents progress. In Poland women are free to decide what they do for themselves, usually it is them who rule at home and nobody is surprised seeing that a woman dictates her husband what to do.

I'd hate to speak for Cat, but I guess she meant that women from traditional Muslim families have roles imposed on them and that she looks up to any woman that considers tradition and social expectations secondary to her own life-goals.

5.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:21 am

Ahm, I am googling for Turkish female presidents and ... can you give me the name, please?

6.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:27 am

Tamikidakika, I don't want to see another post of yours like that! You are entitled to your opinion, obviously, but no need to bash like that. CW post is a normal one, not a hatred carrying post. Yours, on the contrary, is.

7.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:29 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

Ahm, I am googling for Turkish female presidents and ... can you give me the name, please?



Tansu Çiller

8.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:36 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting tamikidakika:


does that substitute the lack of woman president in Poland?



Actually the role of president in Poland is more of a representational. There's not much power president has. Yet, I don't see a woman president anytime soon in Poland. Not many women are interested in running for presidency. But the ones in Parliament are pretty influential. Besides, I don't see how being president represents progress. In Poland women are free to decide what they do for themselves, usually it is them who rule at home and nobody is surprised seeing that a woman dictates her husband what to do.

I'd hate to speak for Cat, but I guess she meant that women from traditional Muslim families have roles imposed on them and that she looks up to any woman that considers tradition and social expectations secondary to her own life-goals.




No need to split the hair to defend catwoman. Anyone with an average IQ can see the poor quality sarcasm behind her post. Don`t you see that there is nothing constructive in what she says. Do you really think she admires that woman (if that is a real instance)? No she`s just making fun of her.

9.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:39 am

She wasn't president according to Wikipedia - she was a Prime Minister, that's a bit different...

And I don't think Cat is laughing at that person. Actually I am absolutely sure she isn't, I know her well enough to say it.

10.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:41 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Tamikidakika, I don't want to see another post of yours like that! You are entitled to your opinion, obviously, but no need to bash like that. CW post is a normal one, not a hatred carrying post. Yours, on the contrary, is.



cool, so is it me who is bashing people? Do you have anything to say about this statement; "If you know of some other progressive Muslim women, let us know!"

Is this what you call a "normal post"?

11.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:42 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

She wasn't president according to Wikipedia - she was a Prime Minister, that's a bit different...



Its possible I said the wrong name.. Tansu Çiller however is the first who came to my mind.

Quoting Daydreamer:


And I don't think Cat is laughing at that person. Actually I am absolutely sure she isn't, I know her well enough to say it.



+1

12.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:46 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

She wasn't president according to Wikipedia - she was a Prime Minister, that's a bit different...

And I don't think Cat is laughing at that person. Actually I am absolutely sure she isn't, I know her well enough to say it.



we don`t vote for the president in Turkey. The equivalent of "president" in Turkey is prime minister, and that`s the uppermost person people can elect.

13.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:47 am

What is wrong with asking about that? I think it's great to show any examples of women who objected to tradition and wanted to pursue their own career. If a woman coming from a strictly traditional family wants to do something for herself, it's admirable that she has enough strength to do it. It is as admirable as black women refusing to sit at the end of a bus or women who chained themselves to the gates of White House to demand the right of vote.

I don't see why talking about a progressive Muslim woman would be sarcastic.

14.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:50 am

Quoting tamikidakika:



we don`t vote for the president in Turkey. The equivalent of "president" in Turkey is prime minister, and that`s the uppermost person people can elect.



Wiki says "Prime Minister must be elected by majority of votes in the Grand National Assembly of Turkey along with other members of the Cabinet of Turkey." So, do citizens vote for Prime Minister or for the party that later elects a Prime Minister? If the latter then Poland did have a female Prime Minister as well.

15.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:01 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting tamikidakika:



we don`t vote for the president in Turkey. The equivalent of "president" in Turkey is prime minister, and that`s the uppermost person people can elect.



Wiki says "Prime Minister must be elected by majority of votes in the Grand National Assembly of Turkey along with other members of the Cabinet of Turkey." So, do citizens vote for Prime Minister or for the party that later elects a Prime Minister? If the latter then Poland did have a female Prime Minister as well.




People vote for the party, and the leader of that party becomes prime minister if he/she can get the approval of the congress after the elections.

16.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:03 pm

So it's the same in Poland. Women Prime Minister Poland vs Turkey 1:1 lol

17.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:06 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

So it's the same in Poland. Women Prime Minister Poland vs Turkey 1:1 lol




As I said, the equivalence of prime minister in Turkey is president in most of the other countries including Poland, because in Poland the president is chosen directly by people. So its still 1:0

18.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:10 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting Daydreamer:

So it's the same in Poland. Women Prime Minister Poland vs Turkey 1:1 lol




As I said, the equivalence of prime minister in Turkey is president in most of the other countries including Poland, because in Poland the president is chosen directly by people. So its still 1:0



Actually you said people choose the party, not the person. So it is the same
Turks choose the party
Poles choose the party
Turkish Party appoints the Prime Minister
Polish Party appoints the Prime Minister

It is exactly the same. If prime Minister in Turkey was subject to public elections, the matter would be different lol

Still 1:1 to me

19.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:18 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Still 1:1 to me



That's all nice and well, but I'm ashamed to say that such a progressive country as the Netherlands, has never had a female prime minister We may have a queen, but that is just a formality, so no woman has ever had the political power. There is even a party (SGP) that doesn't allow women to be a full member. The Netherlands stopped financially supporting this party because it doesnt give women the same rights as men. As a reaction, they made a declaration, but again the political power remained in the hands of men. I can't believe such a thing is possible. Their ideology is to make a theocracy of the Netherlands lol

20.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:19 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting Daydreamer:

So it's the same in Poland. Women Prime Minister Poland vs Turkey 1:1 lol




As I said, the equivalence of prime minister in Turkey is president in most of the other countries including Poland, because in Poland the president is chosen directly by people. So its still 1:0



Actually you said people choose the party, not the person. So it is the same
Turks choose the party
Poles choose the party
Turkish Party appoints the Prime Minister
Polish Party appoints the Prime Minister

It is exactly the same. If prime Minister in Turkey was subject to public elections, the matter would be different lol

Still 1:1 to me



It`s not exactly the same. The difference is, The poles have never voted for a woman for the uppermost position the y could elect. The Turks did.

and voting for the party or its leader doesn`t make any difference, at least in Turkey. Baykal for example has been the leader of CHP since the 80`s. It`s a static situation, it doesn`t change.

21.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:23 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:



That's all nice and well, but I'm ashamed to say that such a progressive country as the Netherlands, has never had a female prime minister We may have a queen, but that is just a formality, so no woman has ever had the political power. There is even a party (SGP) that doesn't allow women to be a full member. The Netherlands stopped financially supporting this party because it doesnt give women the same rights as men. As a reaction, they made a declaration, but again the political power remained in the hands of men. I can't believe such a thing is possible. Their ideology is to make a theocracy of the Netherlands lol



See - that means you are not as progressive as Turkey! Shame on you!

Theocracy? Tell me about it, that's what our former government was about to introduce. Luckily for Poland, it ended with earlier elections. Still, we have some nice things to reminiscence, Tinky Winky (a Teletubby) was recognised gay by our spokesperson of children's rights, minister of education wanted to forbid teaching about Darwinism at schools and use creationism for that purpose. Oh, sweet gone days Now it's more normal but less funny

22.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:30 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Oh, sweet gone days Now it's more normal but less funny



Hehe Well it will never get that far in the Netherlands, after all we are the kingdom of prostitution, drugs and homosexuality. And I can't be anything else but proud of it

23.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:30 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:



It`s not exactly the same. The difference is, The poles have never voted for a woman for the uppermost position the y could elect. The Turks did.




How did they do it? You said yourself that people, common citizens, vote for a party. So, unless you go to elections and put an x next to a name of a woman who is on a list among names of men, you don't vote directly for her.

If there is a party ABC and they give you 5 candidates to choose the Prime Minister from, say,
Mr D
Mr E
Mr F
Ms G
Mr H

and, you and all other citizens elect Ms G then, yes, you did elect a woman in general elections. But, if your voting list looks like

Party ABC
Party IJK
Party LMN
Party OPQ
Party RST

and you put an x next to a party whose leader happens to be a woman, then you don't choose a woman in general elections, you choose a party.

How clear was it?

Ahm..btw, you don't choose president in general elections? So, you, meaning an individual citizen, get to vote only for a party and they choose everything else themselves? What about Parliamentary Elections? Do you vote for names or parties?

24.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:36 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:



Hehe Well it will never get that far in the Netherlands, after all we are the kingdom of prostitution, drugs and homosexuality. And I can't be anything else but proud of it


Oh you, the capital of moral decay (reads DK lol). And you are the authors of Een Bussie Vol Met Polen. How can anybody dislike your way?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5qvQ_2nsVtk&feature=related

25.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:44 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Oh you, the capital of moral decay (reads DK lol). And you are the authors of Een Bussie Vol Met Polen. How can anybody dislike your way?



HAHAHHA Sounds good, DK's capital

But... Busik pełny Polaków, not my style Rather denigrating! I refuse to listen the link you gave

26.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:46 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:



But... Busik pełny Polaków, not my style



Really? I was laughing my head off when I heard it Not my choice of music but I found that funny (probably because I don't understand the lyrics hahahahah)

27.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:48 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting tamikidakika:



It`s not exactly the same. The difference is, The poles have never voted for a woman for the uppermost position the y could elect. The Turks did.




How did they do it? You said yourself that people, common citizens, vote for a party. So, unless you go to elections and put an x next to a name of a woman who is on a list among names of men, you don't vote directly for her.

If there is a party ABC and they give you 5 candidates to choose the Prime Minister from, say,
Mr D
Mr E
Mr F
Ms G
Mr H

and, you and all other citizens elect Ms G then, yes, you did elect a woman in general elections. But, if your voting list looks like

Party ABC
Party IJK
Party LMN
Party OPQ
Party RST

and you put an x next to a party whose leader happens to be a woman, then you don't choose a woman in general elections, you choose a party.

How clear was it?

Ahm..btw, you don't choose president in general elections? So, you, meaning an individual citizen, get to vote only for a party and they choose everything else themselves? What about Parliamentary Elections? Do you vote for names or parties?



We don`t vote for the representatives either individually, They are choosen by the party you`re voting for. your vote just determines how many of them will get into the parliement.

and as for choosing the prime minister, it doesn`t make any difference to vote for them directly or for their parties. When you vote for a party, you know that the leader of the party will be prime minister if the party gets enough votes. People vote for AKP to make Tayyip prime minister for example not someone who works as an accountant in AKP. If you don`t want to see the party leader as prime minister, you simply don`t vote for that party. That`s that simple.

28.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:51 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:


Really? I was laughing my head off when I heard it Not my choice of music but I found that funny



It is rather denigrating, making fun of 'Poles who rent another house with an entire group and just come here for beer and a few quid'.

But yeah, about the music, more than it shows their shortsighted view, it shows the Dutch' incompetence of making good music

29.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:53 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:


and as for choosing the prime minister, it doesn`t make any difference to vote for them directly or for their parties. When you vote for a party, you know that the leader of the party will be prime minister if the party gets enough votes. People vote for AKP to make Tayyip prime minister for example not someone who works as an accountant in AKP.



So that's the difference I was talking about - you didn't elect a woman because she was a woman, or because of her skills, qualities or whatever, you elected a party. The same way Polish Prime Minister gets elected - you choose a party and they elect one of them Prime Minister. It is impossible to compare it to presidential elections as in case of president, you vote for a name. And in Turkey you never vote for a name, thus never voting for a man or a woman. If you still cannot see a difference between direct and indirect voting systems, I'm sorry, I can't get any clearer.

Still, I see no point in debating over female prime ministers/presidents. Like DK said - the Netherlands never had one and it's really hard to consider her homeland not a progressive country

30.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:56 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:



It is rather denigrating, making fun of 'Poles who rent another house with an entire group and just come here for beer and a few quid'.



It is true in 90% cases (you don't really think Poles go there for the love of language), so why should anyone get offended? I wouldn't be surprised if that song played in Polish clubs lol

31.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:57 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

It is true in 90% cases, so why should anyone get offended? I wouldn't be surprised if that song played in Polish clubs lol



Well Im not offended But I feel it to be denigrating for people who do need that money. It is like they look down on people who work hard for just a little bit of money (whereas they get it with such an idiot song )

32.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:58 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Like DK said - the Netherlands never had one and it's really hard to consider her homeland not a progressive country



33.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 12:58 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:



Still, I see no point in debating over female prime ministers/presidents. Like DK said - the Netherlands never had one and it's really hard to consider her homeland not a progressive country



right, especially when she equates progress with prostitution and drugs. lol

34.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 01:00 pm

I have no idea how much people make in the Netherlands, but I bet it's not really "a little" for them since they do it. Let's be honest, apart from hard-working immigrants, there's a lot of guys who act like they were from the outer space - 10 people living in one house, eating cheapest food and drinking till they drop each weekend. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw some like that here. They deserved this song Plus, treat the money the Dutch guys make on it as a compensation

35.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 01:03 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:

right, especially when she equates progress with prostitution and drugs. lol



I never did that But at least people here are given a free choice, and that is progress to me.

36.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 01:03 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:



right, especially when she equates progress with prostitution and drugs. lol



It is a matter of free choice. Nobody forces you to either. What is more fair: a country that lets you decide for yourself how you want to live or a country that limits your choice? Besides, in Turkey people do have access to drugs and prostitution, degil mi? So, basically, what goes on in the Netherlands is that they limited the illegal market by legalising it. Now the country has better means of controlling it.

37.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 01:03 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

I have no idea how much people make in the Netherlands, but I bet it's not really "a little" for them since they do it. Let's be honest, apart from hard-working immigrants, there's a lot of guys who act like they were from the outer space - 10 people living in one house, eating cheapest food and drinking till they drop each weekend. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw some like that here. They deserved this song Plus, treat the money the Dutch guys make on it as a compensation



Ok ok You win I'm just immigrant-friendly

38.       libralady
5152 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 01:06 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Well... I just stumbled on some material about this lady that I never heard of before - Shazia Mirza and I thought "Wow!" This is amazing! A Muslim woman, born in the UK who remained a Muslim but became a stand-up comedian (of course) against the will of her parents. She refused to be put in a box and to be told what she should believe and how she should practice her religion. She speaks her mind about arranged marriages, separation of women and men, the treatment of girls... etc. Interestingly enough, she gets harassed and abused most by Muslims, especially Muslim men!

Shazia Mirza, audio files page

If you know of some other progressive Muslim women, let us know!



Yasmin Alibhai-Brown writes in the Independent and has some outspoken views.

39.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 05:54 pm

Thanks for posting this Catwoman. I saw this woman the other night on Last Comic Standing and she was very funny. She has great energy.

40.       catwoman
8933 posts
 21 Jun 2008 Sat 11:06 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

That's all nice and well, but I'm ashamed to say that such a progressive country as the Netherlands, has never had a female prime minister We may have a queen, but that is just a formality, so no woman has ever had the political power.


I wonder if the progressive country of Netherlands will ever allow a white man to be the queen!!! I doubt they will!

41.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 22 Jun 2008 Sun 12:40 am

Quoting catwoman:

I wonder if the progressive country of Netherlands will ever allow a white man to be the queen!!! I doubt they will!



Our white man has married a beautiful Argentinian woman a couple of years ago, but if he were married to a man he would be definietly become Queen

42.       CANLI
5084 posts
 25 Jun 2008 Wed 04:06 am

A progressive Muslim woman
http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Women/HOWomen/Famous/100103000000000002.htm
Just depends on what do you mean by progressive,thats what would i call progressive.
As you see she was born 1917,and she was Muslim,and she was a woman,and she was a nuclear researcher

43.       catwoman
8933 posts
 25 Jun 2008 Wed 05:01 am

"Progressive" may mean many different things, in general I consider it progressive when a person is breaking the accepted norms in order to better themselves or their communities. This woman, Dr Sameera Moussa, is absolutely very progressive and brilliant, being so accomplished in nuclear physics as a Muslim woman. She must have gone against lots of social pressure to pursue her dreams and talents.

"In England, she pursued her studies, devoting her efforts to make available the full peaceful use of the atom in combating cancer especially after her mother went through a fierce battle against cancer. Throughout her intensive research, she came up with a historic equation that would help break the atoms of cheap metals such as copper, paving the way for a nuclear bomb almost for free. "

44.       mltm
3690 posts
 02 Aug 2008 Sat 10:14 pm

This unusual iranian bus driver woman in Tehran represents an example of a progressive woman as well. Even in such opression in Iran, we can still meet courageous women. She even fights with other men like any other bus driver.
I think Iran sooner or later will change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ijULa1krw

45.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Aug 2008 Sat 10:35 pm

Quoting mltm:

This unusual iranian bus driver woman in Tehran represents an example of a progressive woman as well. Even in such opression in Iran, we can still meet courageous women. She even fights with other men like any other bus driver.
I think Iran sooner or later will change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ijULa1krw


Definitely a progressive, courageous woman. Isn´t it sad that in Iran you have to be a courageous woman to be a bus driver?

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