News articles, events, announcements |
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Turkey´s sex workers seek to establish a union
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50. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 10:42 pm |
Of course it´s not the women who should be condemned here, they are just like sweatshot workers who find themselves in the system that oppresses and sells women. It is the system that has to be changed, and that is guilty for this. It´s not the women who are often forced and fooled into this kind of ´job´ who are to be blamed here. Selling human sexuality is quite unexcusable in the 21st century in a developed country. Of course it´s unacceptable anywhere, anytime.
The fact taht some women choose or even enjoy it is not an argument at all. It doesn´t change what prostitution is and what it means in our patriarchal society, male dominated power structure and misogynistic ideology. It does not change the fact that prostitution in the world is a result of women´s lower status, poverty, sexual abuse, women not being empowered in the society, at homes and not having full control over hteir own bodies, and women being taught that sexual exploitation of women´s bodies is something women should internalize as their natural role. Prostitution is not an individual liberty issue.
I do agee with some of what you are saying but how do you view male prostitution? Male on male and then the male escort for the affluent female? There are many facets to prostitution and not always degrading.
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51. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 10:50 pm |
You are way too feministic here. The women who choose that work voluntarily do not think about ´internalizing sexual exploitation´. They think about their job as a job, they want to make money. When it is a job choosen in liberty, I DO think it is an individial issue.
You should read this: http://www.rodedraad.nl/index.php?id=221 the site of De Rode Draad, Dutch union of sex workers. Especially on the left hand side the part ´Why domestic work is not always...´ (Site is in English)
+1
I agree. And the idea that sexuality cannot be sold? Why not? Why can I sell my thoughts or get paid for working in a factory, or get paid for having a beautiful voice, but then when I decide I want to make money from my sexual ´expertise´, it suddenly is unexcusable? I really don´t see why. It sort of sounds like sex is something holy and that women should understand it as such. And thinking of it that way sounds either religious or patriarchal ´woman needs to stay virgin till marriage´.
And you forget that there are also men selling themselves.
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52. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 10:52 pm |
You are way too feministic here. The women who choose that work voluntarily do not think about ´internalizing sexual exploitation´. They think about their job as a job, they want to make money. When it is a job choosen in liberty, I DO think it is an individial issue.
You should read this: http://www.rodedraad.nl/index.php?id=221 the site of De Rode Draad, Dutch union of sex workers. Especially on the left hand side the part ´Why domestic work is not always...´ (Site is in English)
Trudy, do not label me as "feministic" please. These are my views that simply stem from logic and humanity. If a job can put you at risk of being killed, brutalized, get serious diseases, you do not say "oh, but some people don´t get killed in this job", right? Why is it that you consider prostitution as a normal ´job´, but you have no concern for the hazards of it? Where do you think these hazards come from? These hazards in fact are part of what the johns are buying here. And you are completely ignoring the larger context, you are talking exactly like slavery supporters did back in the day.
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53. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 10:56 pm |
I do agee with some of what you are saying but how do you view male prostitution? Male on male and then the male escort for the affluent female? There are many facets to prostitution and not always degrading.
I don´t know enough about male on male escorts to comment about it.
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54. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 11:09 pm |
Trudy, do not label me as "feministic" please. These are my views that simply stem from logic and humanity. If a job can put you at risk of being killed, brutalized, get serious diseases, you do not say "oh, but some people don´t get killed in this job", right? Why is it that you consider prostitution as a normal ´job´, but you have no concern for the hazards of it? Where do you think these hazards come from? These hazards in fact are part of what the johns are buying here. And you are completely ignoring the larger context, you are talking exactly like slavery supporters did back in the day.
First: I DO see the hazards, that´s why I support a union for women that have choosen the job themselves. Views like yours make that this job will never be accepted so dangers will always be there. Besides, if dangers make a job unacceptable, I know many more jobs that are.
Second: Thanks for calling me a slavery supporter.
Third: Your own quote from a couple of weeks back about you being a feminist was:
And why would I deny that I´m a feminist and that I encourage feminism?
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55. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 11:19 pm |
Quoting Trudy
First: I DO see the hazards, that´s why I support a union for women that have choosen the job themselves. Views like yours make that this job will never be accepted so dangers will always be there. Besides, if dangers make a job unacceptable, I know many more jobs that are.
Second: Thanks for calling me a slavery supporter.
Third: Your own quote from a couple of weeks back about you being a feminist was:
First: you do not see the fact taht what johns are buying IS domination and all the things that pose risk to the women. Even if you make a union for women, it will not eliminate the root of the problem, it will only make it worse.
Second: I apologize if my comment came across as calling you a slavery supporter. What I meant is that your reasoning is similar to those of slavery supporters, which is basically -- rationalization.
Third: I call myself a feminist and feminism supporter, but you don´t know what my views are and how I define my feminism. I don´t like you calling my views ´feministic´ because you are making feminism a divisive issue by doing this, and you are discarding my arguments by labeling it in a way that will turn off many people from engaging in a conversation. This conversation has nothing to do with the feminist ideology or feminist theory, it is simply a conversation about humanity, society and equality in it. So please, stay away from labeling me.
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56. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 11:24 pm |
how I define my feminism.
I don´t KNOW, that´s true. Though I have the idea you define your ´feminism´ in a way that suits you and only when you like it. Labeling? Sorry, I was only using my freedom of speech and opinion.
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57. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 11:25 pm |
First: you do not see the fact taht what johns are buying IS domination and all the things that pose risk to the women. Even if you make a union for women, it will not eliminate the root of the problem, it will only make it worse.
No I don´t see how a john buys domination from a woman if she is willing to spread her legs as long as he pays. Where exactly is the domination? The domination is there when your definition of female sexuality involves male domination.
Like I said before: why can I sell my voice on a cd, but if I want to sell my body it´s unexcusable?
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58. |
08 Nov 2008 Sat 11:31 pm |
No I don´t see how a john buys domination from a woman if she is willing to spread her legs as long as he pays. Where exactly is the domination? The domination is there when your definition of female sexuality involves male domination.
Like I said before: why can I sell my voice on a cd, but if I want to sell my body it´s unexcusable?
Very well said!
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59. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 12:15 am |
I don´t KNOW, that´s true. Though I have the idea you define your ´feminism´ in a way that suits you and only when you like it. Labeling? Sorry, I was only using my freedom of speech and opinion.
well... what is it that you are trying to say here dear Trudy? nothing constructive I´m afraid, nothing contributory. go ahead and use your freedom of speech the way you want, I just won´t bother replying.
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60. |
09 Nov 2008 Sun 12:18 am |
No I don´t see how a john buys domination from a woman if she is willing to spread her legs as long as he pays. Where exactly is the domination? The domination is there when your definition of female sexuality involves male domination.
Like I said before: why can I sell my voice on a cd, but if I want to sell my body it´s unexcusable?
Ok, DK you just proved your ignorance of the issue. There are many reasons why these women ´spread their legs´ and many reasons why a man might want to purchase that, one of them is a very degrading towards women perception of human sexuality that´s based on domination and banging a woman who is in pain while he´s doing that.
Please, how can you compare selling your sexuality to selling your talent and creativity and self realization?
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