this is an age old debate and will be continually debated for some time

i totally agree that in situations where the sex worker has no choice or is forcably made to work in the industry then it can be considered degrading or as a form of domination.

I have worked very closely with ladies who have chosen the sex industry as their "profession", their thoughts far from being degraded, feel that they hold the upper hand. They are in control, they make the rules, and god help the "punter" that steps out of line. The men come to them, the men pay them, the men play by their rules...... Who is the degraded one here!!. 

Some of the ladies used this job to pay their way through uni, they were smart, strong, opinionated women..... hey some even admited they liked the sex part!!!

while my heart goes out to the workers who get trapped and forced into this trade....thankfully i, personally have not come across those who have experienced this first hand

there will always be a sex trade while people want sex and are willing to pay for it!

so if a trade workers unions gives more protection then they should have it ....... but if it is anything like my union they will be screwed either way anyway!!!!

I thought I had addressed the issues you brought up...

when you bring up the word ´choice´, also check on the other options...

please, reserarch the facts about the numbers of prostitutes that are raped, abused, brutalized, traumatized... etc. Just because you know 1 or 2 prostitutes who seem to ´have the upper hand´ doesn´t mean anything.

this is what I get from the first google result!!!

For women who are prostitutes, rape is every bit as traumatic as it is for women who are not sex workers. It may even be more painful, as the act reopens old wounds and buried memories of unbearable abuse. In fact, prostitutes demonstrate many of the same characteristics as soldiers returning from the battlefield.

In the 1990s, researchers Melissa Farley and Howard Barkan conducted a study on prostitution, violence against women and post traumatic stress disorder, interviewing 130 San Francisco prostitutes. Their findings indicate assault and rape are all too commonplace:

Eighty-two percent of these respondents reported having been physically assaulted since entering prostitution. Of those who had been physically assaulted, 55% had been assaulted by customers. Eighty-eight percent had been physically threatened while in prostitution, and 83% had been physically threatened with a weapon....Sixty-eight percent...reported having been raped since entering prostitution. Forty-eight percent had been raped more than five times. Forty-six percent of those who reported rapes stated that they had been raped by customers.

Prostitution research FAQs:

- "About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape. It´s hard to talk about this because..the experience of prostitution is just like rape. Prostitutes are raped, on the average, eight to ten times per year. They are the most raped class of women in the history of our planet. "

- Other studies report 68% to 70% of women in prostitution being raped

- 78% of 55 women who sought help from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in 1991 reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns.

- 85% of prostitutes are raped by pimps.

- 62% reported having been raped in prostitution.
73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.
72% were currently or formerly homeless.
92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.

- 83% of prostitutes are victims of assault with a weapon.

- A Canadian Report on Prostitution and Pornography concluded that girls and women in prostitution have a mortality rate 40 times higher than the national average.

- Many of the health problems of women in prostitution are a direct result of violence. For example, several women had their ribs broken by the police in Istanbul, a woman in San Francisco broke her hips jumping out of a car when a john was attempting to kidnap her. Many women had their teeth knocked out by pimps and johns.

- In one study, 75% of women in escort prostitution had attempted suicide. Prostituted women comprised 15% of all completed suicides reported by hospitals.

- Like combat veterans, women in prostitution suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a psychological reaction to extreme physical and emotional trauma.

-In 1999, the Swedish Parliament put into effect a law which criminalizes the buying of sexual services but not the selling of sexual services. This is a compassionate, social interventionist legal response to the cruelty of prostitution.

- and much much more........ read on your own

 Whether or not you have addressed the issues I have brought up does not mean I loose the right to contribute to the discussion.

I am fully aware of all the dangers(and there is no denial of the statistics) that face the workers in this  industry and have been involved in educating more than just one or two .

As I said while there is a need for a service there will always be providers rightly or wrongly, I just fear if we are not more open and supportive that the need for this role exists it will be pushed underground and totally governed by the "johns" (i´ve never heard them called this) and we will cease to hear of the statistics that we do hear about.

I will reply, whether you will or not I don´t care. You seem to be only able of dramatising. Several members said they are, like me, against forced prostitution but they don´t condemn the women who have chosen this profession. They also don´t see it all as ´slavery´ or ´male domination´. You do. You can only see the traumatised stories but not, like Lesluv did, the uni-stories - and these stories are less rare then you might think. Everytime whenever it comes to the position of women, it is always in your view caused by male dominance. Women are ´internalizing male views´ and therefor always the victim of the patriarchal system. Yes, sometimes they are, but sometimes not. You don´t see (want to?) that some prostitutes are very, very strong women who defenitely can look after themselves, who don´t have or need a pimp. Those women want that job, they are aware of dangers (therefor they want a union and legalising), but surely THEY are in charge in the negotiation between them and their johns. You sound to me like the evangelising priest who is talking about hell and doom to save souls. I doubt if you ever have spoken to a prostitute in real life or if this is only ´wisdom´ out of books.

I can´t believe you replied Trudy!  How VERY dare you!

 Sorry. What is my punishment? Writing 200x ´I will not reply´?

 No dear, in fact I was going to invite you to the shallowest group of all, the NCOCP Club!!! (Nothing ´Constructive or Contributary´ Posts Club).

I have been a sole member for some time and would enjoy the company

(PS. You will have to increase your quota a bit though - maybe 100 a day? )

Kitty, every single post that I write expresses MY opinion unless I quote a source.

I don´t know how much you had to do with sex business, although I can´t say I´m paricularly interested in this issue or know a lot about it, I have met and talked to a prostitute and a former bouncer from a brothel is a good friend of mine. The prostitution you refer to is to be condemned - everybody agrees with that - sex slaves and abused women. But why do you fail to accept that not all the people in this business are there by force? Yes, some people like it, for some people it was not the last resort job, some consider themselves better than McDonald´s stuff. Your moral code is not a universal one, for some selling their bodies is less of a problem than, say, nursing old people in nursing homes. If people decide to provide sexual services they should do it in the safest way possible and trade union may help them.

 I meant male prostitutes for men (homosexuals) and male prostitutes for women (politely termed as escorts).

 Trudy, I fully agree with your post and that is why I mentioned the book "Call Me Elizabeth" the tru story (perhaps a little embelished) about a high class prostitute.

There are two facets to female prostitution as I see it,

1) forced sex slaves which I abhore

2) those who choice the profession, manage it and control it

Cat, you are very dramtic and only see the negative side, male dominated and all that, but this is not always the case.  Prostitution has been around for thousands of years and will no doubt go on, despite anything anyone tries to do about it.  It is taking peoples freedom of choice away.

One thing Vinyards mentioned about the males ability to perform with the prostitute, that is one thing that was repeated in the book above, most of the men were old, drunk, impotent or wanted buns thrown at their ****s.  No physical activity actually took place.

It is an interesting debate and interesting to see peoples views including the more radical ones.  But as far as I am concerned some of these women actually provide a very important service and are more than happy and willing to do so.  Surely it is far better to ensure that there are controls and support systems in place for those women who work at the more riskier end than trying to ban it altogether.

Although I am aware of the many dimensions into this topic, but I would like to go along with Cat.
In the end, as a man (or as a woman), you are buying a piece of flesh!! You are ´buying´ her and she has to please you during the agreed time..
It is a kind of slavery from my point of view.
Though personally I have never come a cross of a prostitute with upper hand, but I trust the post from lesluv. But, kk, they may determine the rules, price, what will be the agreed performance etc., in the end they are the ones whose service is bought..I can not see very much upper hand in that situation really.
I am sure there are many women out there who might have need more of it for their satisfaction and they might think that they would like to earn some money while doing it but I dont think I will ever come to think that selling sex is the right thing to do..(it might be possible in Europe but to be honest, in counties like my own country the sex workers are mainly low IQ women whom abused and used by their pimps and their clients) And I am sure those ´willingly doing it´ are quite marginal as far as the number are concerned but I would respect their choice of freedom.
And having union for these women in Turkey  might sound a good thing..But, personally, I find it hard to believe it is going to change anything for them at all..(I always thought that their relations with their pimps are quite primitive. That is the reason why I am spectical about a good out come )
I agree with cat about criminalizing it .. It should be criminalized for the people who are paying for it.
Although knowing the fact that it is not going to happen soon but, somebody, sometimes, should always tell ´what needs to be done´ and ´how it should be´..
Cat has been doing this on this topic, I think..