After killing of a 15 years old boy by the police, in Greece, Riots are still going on..

It is quite interesting to watch them from Turkish point of view because we are a country where police kills a boy because (he did not stop after he was told ´to stop´ and then his father gets arrested because he protests afterwards. (http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_30006)

We are almost in the same place on this earth. Forget what the racists say, we lived hundreds of years together with those guys. We shared many things with them.

If we are talking about army interventions, they had it as well..They had their share of military regime between 1967 and 1974.(In fact, we Turks are a bit proud the fact that Turkey´s 1974 Cyprus intervention caused the downfall of their military regime. We brought them the democracy )

(After reading this http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10551371.asp?scr=1 )

The question is how come two similar cultures, two similar people differ at this point? 

interesting post.. but I am not sure what you are referring to that is different between Turkey and Greece..

May be I could not make it clear..

If only one killing is making the entire Greek people riot because of police violence, why nothing is hapenning in Turkey when there is a huge list of  people got killed unlawfully by the police..

do you think Turkish people like killed by the police?

do you think after this riot in Greece police will get away with that killing?

Are Those riots part of the democracy?

And why on earth we, turks, still have that huge list?

Such a nice way of protesting the police yes!

Burning cars, damaging the shops... making people worried and sad!! very well... very well...

Police can make wrong... but this never gives you a right to harm other people...

but hairy, you forgot to add some facts that i pasted below. right, ok, the boy was an anarchist and was a threat to the citizens. he was shot while he was throwing a bomb. if i were police i would do the same.

i know, i know, you are talking about the justice system, democracy (greek word) and the difference.

but government in turkey apologising to simple people? you must be

***

The teenage was rushed to a nearby hospital but doctors could only confirm his death.

The news enraged hundreds of youths in the neighbourhood, who began attacking police cars with stones and firebombs, burning dozens of cars and smashing shop windows.

"Hundreds of them hit the streets, probably for revenge ... Dozens of police units are gathering to try to control the situation," a police official, who declined to be named, said.

Police responded by firing tear gas at the crowd, evacuating some restaurants in the area, and closing several streets to all traffic.

Hundreds of youths also took to the streets in Thessaloniki, Greece´s second largest city, after the news of the shooting was reported.

The protests soon spread to the northern cities of Komotini and Ioannina and the Cretan city of Hania.

Government apology

Several hours after the incident, Prokopis Pavlopoulos, the interior minister, appologised for the incident on private Mega TV.

"On behalf of the government and the prime minister, I express my sorrow for the incident and especially the death of the young boy," Pavlopoulos said.

"An investigation to clarify the situation has already begun. There will be an exemplary punishment and measures will be taken so that such a thing will not be repeated." He added.

Police sources also said that two police officers were arrested and were being questioned over the incident.

Riots have broken out across Greece after police shot dead a 15-year-old boy in Athens.

Police said the teenager was shot in the traditionally left-wing Exarchia district of the Greek capital on Saturday after the boy tried to throw a firebomb at a patrol car.

 you are right, i hate that kind of protest. i would support such actions only in case of regime and neverending dictatorship. people overuse the freedom.

but sui such riots do also happen in turkey, esp. when theres a need to "defend" an image of a certain "peaceful" religion.

what?

Any 15 yo, labeled as anarchist should be killed at the spot?

Where are courts, basic human rights  etc etc?

Th police does NOT have right to kill anybody unecessarly..

In the end , citizens pay their taxes and police is being ´paid´ by those taxes..

This is the report from theindependant:

The two officers involved in Saturday´s shooting have been arrested and charged, one with premeditated manslaughter and the illegal use of a weapon, and the other as an accomplice. They are to appear before a court Wednesday. They and the Exarchia precinct police chief have been suspended.

Interior Minister Prokopis Pavlopoulos, whose offer to resign was rejected yesterday, has promised a thorough investigation

I am not advocating that directly..

But democracy does not come as easily as a  guest into any country...

There is always a price to pay..You pay it sooner or later.

But once it is there  it calls ´a stupid police´ into account like that..

And as far as Turkey is concerned, I wish we would burn the cars and riot when police kills innocent people by stupid mistake so that it NEVER happens again..

But look at the list I gave up there..Such a shame..

 I completely agree...

People seem to forget that police are "human" too and have all human failings.  They should be punished when they take the law into their own hands.  It is for judges and jurys to decide punishments.  So many police are completely power crazy...

 what? you two are crazy!

if i were police and if anyone was aiming at me, i will definetly shoot first. and if he has a bomb i will not think a second.

the democracy is not that you come out and do whatever you want to, killing and demolishing.

now, having said all above, i cant give any definite opinion about the situation in greece, i read different sources and opinions.

 wow wow wow!!!

now i am sure again that i was right whilist choosing you as a First Lady!!

 I think the problem is that we don´t know all the detail.  However, shoot first, ask questions later is the first way to a police state.  Sui, I don´t expect you to agree because you cannot be objective on this subject.

Well..thanks god you are not one..

First of all police is there to PROTECT everybody..

Police can not be/should not be trigger happy..And I think it is much much better the police do not carry gun at all..

I think, in generic terms, I would give the british police as an example about how it should be..

But anyway..This is not the gist of the topic.

In democracies, police can NOT kill people without a serious reason..

If they do, they get the punisment. 

After those riots I think a greek police will think twice or three times before it pulls the trigger..

And the sad thing is in my country, sometimes, they dont even think a split second..They just kill..

And this is the list from 2008 only:

February 8: 17-year-old Emrah Derviþoðlu who had allegedly been involved in the theft of a car in Istanbul, was shot for ignoring a police warning and died. 

February 15: 16-year-old Yahya Menekþe died when he was crushed under a police vehicle in a demonstration in Cizre. 

March 22: Police shot dead Zeki Erik during the Nevruz celebrations and Ramazan Dal was taken to intensive care after being beaten by police. Dal died 10 days later. 

May 1: Daily Cumhuriyet correspondents Ali Deniz Uslu and Esra Açýkgöz were seriously injured as a result of the actions of police in a May Day rally in Istanbul, while they were working. 

Aug. 27: Stopped by police in Balýkesir for driving under the influence of alcohol, Halil Bulut, while trying to get in his car to escape police, was shot in the heart by police and died. 

Aug. 30: A fight broke out between police and civilians when civilians ignored police warnings to stop. A passerby, Aziz Yargý, unaware of what was happening, was shot dead as a result of a stray bullet fired by police. 

Oct. 10: Engin Çeber died from injuries he received at Metris Prison in Istanbul. 

Oct. 20: Ahmet Özhan died as a result of police firing into a demonstration in eastern Anatolia. The protest was staged due to claims the leader of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, Abdullah Öcalan, was under pressure in Ýmralý, an island near Istanbul where he is serving a prison sentence. 

Oct. 27: A police officer shot dead 18-year-old Çaðdaþ Gemik because he disobeyed a warning to stop. 

Nov. 11: As a result of not adhering to the police warning to stop, 14-year-old Ahmet Yýldýrým sustained back injuries as a result of police firing a shot. The police officer claimed Yýldýrým had stolen a motorcycle in a southern Adana province. 

Nov. 19: Soner Çankal, suspected of theft, was shot in the head and died in the Altýndað district of Ankarafor ignoring a police warning. 

Nov. 25: 20-year-old Baran Tursun was shot in the head by police while driving after failing to comply with a warning to stop.

btw..this is only 2008..10-20 years ago the list was much bigger for each year.. (so we are a bit better..)

I dont really care if i answer your expectations or not... And are you the judge of being objective? that you can decide if i am objective or not...

I also say my words to police officers where they do not behave... and i dont need to prove these to you!

 right, and having a bomb is not a serious reason?

the police to protect us without guns? are you joking? are they supposed to protect us by farting then?

give me a break, hairy!

I am still insisting that they should not carry guns..

Most of the british police do not carry guns ..

And in fact, most of them does not want to carry guns.

So it is possible to protect people without KILLING and carrying guns..

 Again I am forced to agree with you completely !!!

You are just looking to the point one sidedly...

Will the anarchy stop if they dont carry guns? Oh come on! be more realistic!!

 Well, with respect, so are you Sui

 sorry fella, i completly disagree with you.

if there are criminals around my house terrorising us (having all various guns) how do you expect the gunless police to protect us?

 But they are NOT outside your house doing that.  If the police carried guns routinely, then you would find MORE people would carry guns also.

 Offfff I can´t quote your post!!!

Well, it is proven Femme.   In places where police routinely carry guns, the number of citizens carrying guns increases too. 

A good example for you Femme. The number of people in California who own and carry guns is now 32% of the population.

Can you IMAGINE such a thing here?

 i dont know how to quiote properly

how is it proven? it is not about gunless police or with guns. its the matter of matureness of the society. in some western countries it took years of education, mutual cooperation with the help of mass media, lots of social work efforts etc etc.

the police must protect citizens from criminals and i exclude criminals from being citizens.

and you and hairy are suggesting that the police should protect everyone even the criminal. yes, there are also a list of policemen who died because they didnt have enough equippment to protect themselves.

 Look Aenigma,

it is very blind to say people carry guns because police carry guns, what is the relation? Are you protecting yourself from police?

To my point of view, for a peace or beautiful life, citizens has to obey social rules and police has to behave according to laws...

And if there are some emptiness or discussable points in the laws it is the politicians duty to solve it...

You are not supposed to bring democracy or show the truth with using guns and creating anarchy, then would you be different than that police shot that young boy? Never!

If you think that is wrong... ask for new elections... why are you burning the car of your citizen who maybe worked years to buy it?

As you see... i look from two sides

 After you click "quote" just copy and past the quoted message to amend

 YES!  The police SHOULD protect everyone, including the criminal, otherwise we have a very different society.  The law in this country is still "innocent until proven guilty" and it is not for police to judge.  Also... imagine one day one of your family is shot "by mistake" or because of "mistaken identity" or maybe they just looked as if they were going to get a gun from their pocket, but they were not. 

Being a policeman is a dangerous job yes, policeman have been killed throughout history while carrying out their duties.  However, it is still a rare occurance.

 well said and agree with exception to the bolded one.

it is also my duty to change the law that is idiotic, by taking part in discussions, writing articles in newspapers, using internet , calling people to protest etc etc.

 Yes.

I agree, you don´t always get the leader that you want.  And...since when has a burnt car been the same price as a life?

Well

I guess what greeks are doing right now..And it can be called democracy..

 I agree with this ....

I was brought up in Ireland when and the police were armed it is about the matiurity of the society.....

between the period of 1971 and 1982 only 11 died by gunshot by the hands of police (officialy)

 hey, you are walking away from the point. the boy seemed to be from left-wing anarchist political group (im not so sure though) and he was throwing a bomb. thats more than enough obvious what you should do. i wouldnt shoot him to kill but shoot enough to paralise him.

in this case it is obvious enough. or do you expect him bomb you and your colleagues?

if any criminal is gunning down everyone in the street must be put down. and theres no such a thing innocent until proven in that sequence of crime.

and right, with the mistakes or brutality of the police i agree with you.

 well, i didnt mean come out to streets and demolish the city disturbing a peaceful life.

Femme

you ignored my quote from the papers:

The two officers involved in Saturday´s shooting have been arrested and charged, one with premeditated manslaughter and the illegal use of a weapon, and the other as an accomplice. They are to appear before a court Wednesday. They and the Exarchia precinct police chief have been suspended.

Interior Minister Prokopis Pavlopoulos, whose offer to resign was rejected yesterday, has promised a thorough investigation

Ok they (the police) are innocent until proven guilty.

But the judge thinks that there is enough evidence to charge them!!

Well

I wish my own country´s people came out to streets and disturbed the peaceful life years ago and we had not had hundreds of people got killed by police bullets!!

 tell me what your point is? do i disagree with the judging system in greece or what?

the boy came out with a bomb, they shot him down, and now they are charged with manslaughter. it shows that in greece they have a law that also can be used in the case of police.

 yeah, maybe you are right, but your people will come out maybe 500 years later?

thats what i also say about my own country "quiet brainless sheep".

You do not exaggerate!!

Well as far as the democracy is concerned, we were almost at the same level in 1970s with Greece. We have almost identical culture.

That was my question in the first place:

What went wrong or what went missing or what they did but we did NOT? 

 i know, but i will not tell you.

and i dont exaggerate. how come the honor killings from hundreds years are still in effect in this 21 century?

You wanna know somethign about the police in Egypt?

Police here are feared by all, because of whats happening you can hardly trust them , because of thsi emergency law that ha sbeen going on for almost 30 years!!!!

This law gives the police to arrest anyone without any reason, people get scraed to got o the police stationa dn these things, because they get tortured in there and hit etc etc (even if theyd dint do anythign wrong!)

A policeman can arrest you if for example you didnt give him some money at the checking point.

I mean how can you trust the police if theyre harrasing girls in the streets and do things for money only?

I hate the egyptian police!

And ifyou know soembody that works oin the police (somebody fo a high rank) you can almost get away with anythign!!!

Like thsi one lady a couple of days ago, who was driving really fast and hit a guy (and witnesses say that even thoguh she saw him,, she made no effort to slow down) she hit the guy and he broke all these thinsg and paid the hospital 15000 pounds, and she got out with a 200 pound bail! (She probably ahd them in her purse!!!)

Almost anyone with power can egt away from anythiin, and the poorer you are, the more they hit you(These thinsg come oin the papers)

So sad right???

 a corrupt sick mentality.

our hearts with innocent Greek people on this tragic and sad democracy fight,and we wish Greek people and all countries can fix democracy problems by more harmless methods...And every events show us all globe needs new solutions  for creat more livable world by the hugging all social and economical classes..

I know! Itsa ll the goverments fault too!

They should make tests for the police before putting them on the streets and this whole "emergency law" should end!!!

But you know , this doesnt mean that theyre all bad!

There aes ome taht afe still good, but the things  that teh goverment provides them with really arent helping them live, iv eheard that they get some of the loest salaries and have like really bad pensions etc etc, so how are they supposed to live and stuff without money?

Id also liek toa dd taht they walk arpund with their guns and stuff even off duty and like to show them to people so no one would tell the  anythign and to scare people, they think fear=respect1

IM SO MAAAAAAAAAD!

The police is very much like that almost everywhere in the world. It is just the amount of hypocrisy that changes. 

So those who agree with you are the objective ones?

I am sure Ireland will catch up with the democracy one day too!!

I don´t understand why the police uses real bullets instead of simply knocking out people.. Wouldn´t it make more sense that way?

 nah the police didn´t need to ....they were too busy killing each other!!

 I think you misunderstood my comment.  I was merely saying that if a member of MY family was a policeman/woman I would also find it hard to be objective...

 I know in ireland they used rubber bullets but later changed to plastic ones (after a number of people died from injuries caused by the rubber ones)...the training also included that the knee or below should be the target...to maim rather than to kill

you`re simply trying to prove your flawed point using rhetoric but it doesn`t work. if you say that greece is so democratic because you watched a mob going on there last night on tv, you`re just being funny. how many people join the may day demonstrations in greece? there are tens of greek orthodox churches just in istanbul, but there is not even one single turkish mosque in this "so democratic" country although there are thousands of Turks living there because it`s forbidden. is this what you call democracy?

I`m not saying Turkey is more democratic or not. I`m just saying that things are not so black and white like how your simple mind works.

 Ouh you should visit the UK then Tam.  We are proud of our elaborate mosques.  We have more mosques than churches!

thanks but all those mosques they have in europe look like ghetto slums. filled with crappy people.

they are more muslims than any of the eastern country people man..

you dont know what you are talking about

 Don´t tell that here... it was chosen as the most beautiful building of Rotterdam in 2006. (It´s about 1 km from my house).

I guess it is becoming a custom for add ´so´ infront of the words which considered to be embarresing for some of my country´s undoubtedly ´sophisticated´ people.

Are you sure about those ´none existent mosques´ or ´turkish mosques´ which are forbidded?

But however, you have a point there..

The point is, only some of my "genious" country men can go on a mission to defend the Turks all around the world and at the same time  look down at all its ethnic minorites in Turkey. You are a great example of that.

I remember reading some articles about compulsory classes given by the state for the students who are about to go to foreign countries for education..

They were trying to ´educate´ (not going to say brain washing here ) these clueless young minds about the Turkish thesis ranging from Armenian issue to Cyprus.

My guess is, you were sitting at the front bench, listening carefully as if your life depended on what the teacher was saying and lifting your hand with passion to ask questions to learn more and more.. 

Anyway, back to the topic: I think you should read a bit more about Greece and make parallel comparisons with Turkey especially starting from the time line of 1970´s to see what ´did NOT happen´ in Turkey and why. 

 cut the crap down, and dont expose how your simple mind works displaying the average turkish mind.

now, those orthodox churches existed there before your ancestors galopped on horses from central asia. and remember your ancestors faught against arabs. as soon as the sword of allah chopped off enough turkish and greek heads you turned all the churches into mosques. because how could central asians or arabs from wild deserts would know how to build fabulous buildings without the knowledge heritage of persians, greeks, jews and romans?

and if there was no mosque in greece it simply means that greece was never first islamic then christian.

 that s an interesting description

i cant see whats so beutiful with this thing. It looks like the work of a laz muteahit. maybe it`s because there isn`t anything better in this place you called Rotterdam

yes I`m 100% sure about that. Show me one single Turkish mosque in Greece and I`ll apologise, but you can`t cause they don`t allow that. how democratic isn`t it?

hiiihhihi femme the brainwashed christian missionary, none of these crap you mentioned changes the fact that it`d forbidden to build a Turkish mosque in greece.

Tami! Flowers will be nice

MOsques in Greece

I especially like this fragment:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s1135414.htm

Dr Altana Filos(translation): But it’s not true that there is no mosque in Greece. There are over 300 mosques in Greece overall, but not a mosque in Athens, that was not the case. The mosques are there where there is a large part of the population being Moslems, and this is the case in Northern Greece.

 There´s also (at least) one in Kos. I visited it last October.

I didn`t say there isn`t any mosque in greece, I said there isn`t any Turkish mosque in greece because it`s banned whereas there are tens of greek orthodox churches in Turkey.

Aslan Pasha sounds Turkish bence

haha

You mean built by Turkish construction companies with Turkish cement and sand?

ha ha

hihihii unless, it has this phrase "the Turkish mosque of" in front of the name it is not a Turkish mosque.

The fact is it`s banned to call anything Turkish in greece, so you can`t have a Turkish mosque there.

no I just mean a mosque whose name is "Turkish mosque of whatever". it`s banned in Greece.

http://www.iskecemuftulugu.org/gallery/camiler.php

if you select a name from the drop down menu in the middle, you can see some ´non Turkish´    mosques..

Don´t you think that the problem here is the name of religion? There is Greek-Catholic Church but there´s not Turkish Islam. I´m sure if there was Turkish Islam there´d be Turkish mosques. There are no Polish Catholic churches in Turkey or Serbian Orthodox Churches either. You have Greek churches because that´s the name of RELIGION not COUNTRY

That`s exactly what I`m talking about. "non Turkish"

There isn`t a different sect called greek orthodox, an othodox is orthodox. you can see lot`s of armenian orthodox churches too in Turkey. does that mean there is a different sect called armenian Orthodoxy?

 Yes! In Istanbul there is the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate (a beautiful building inside with gorgeous icons). You should learn more about your own country, Tami.

Edit: there are several ´sects´ of Orthodox churches: Russian, Serbian, Greek, Armenian, Bulgarian and probably more.

Nope, but there´s a huge denomination called Greek Catholic

from Wikipedia":

Greek Catholic Church is a term which refers to the Eastern Catholic Churches which follow the Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition. It can also refer to the Roman Catholic Church in Greece.

I think also calling the mosques as ´Turkish mosque´ would be politically incorrect because Turk is the name of an ethnic group considered the people have been living there for a long time, possibly not pure Turks..

Why should they call it ´Turkish mosque´ and take the risk of  upsetting others?

ha ha.

Trudy and daydreamer, an orthodox is orthodox, and the partriarch of all the orthodox over the world is in Istanbul.

There is a Dutch chapel in Istanbul Trudy, does that mean the Dutch have a different religion?

http://www.searchturkey.com/istanbul/Culture/istanbul_churches_and_synagogues.htm

The problem here is that Greece legally forbids calling a mosque or any other thing Turkish.

NOT true. The patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox church resides in Damascus, not in Istanbul. Sorry to disturb your view of the world, how lovely Istanbul is, it´s not always the center of the earth.

About that Dutch chapel, probably not, probably only protestant services in Dutch language though there IS a protestant sect called ´Dutch-reformed´ - quite different from other protestant churches.

Nope, it´s like saying Sunni and Shi´a are the same.

 And Alevi and Ahmaddhya and Sufi´s and Druze etc etc.

The partriarch in Istanbul claims authority on all the orthodox over the world. That`s not my claim or view of the world, if you have a problem with his claim, you better talk to the guy called partriarch, Trudy.

as I said the problem here is that calling anything Turkish is banned In Greece, not just the mosques but also schools, or anything you can think of.

Suppose I formed a new sect called called Turkish sunni, I will not be able to call my mosque Turkish mosque in greece, because it`s banned. It has nothing to do with your notion that there isn`t a Turkish sect of Islam though there are lots of different sects or Islam formed in Turkey.

 Then he is wrong and so are you.

suppose it`s so. in what way does that affect the fact that calling anything Turkish is banned in Greece? forget about the mosques you can`t call anything Turkish in Greece. there are numerous Greek highschools in Istanbul, but it`s banned to have a Turkish school in Greece. That`s what I`m talking about. how is this so democratic?

Tami

Look..I think you should give Greek democracy a bit of credit there..

At least they are letting their ethnic minorities have their mosques and pray freely..

At least they did not try to erase every single non greeks from their own country..

At least they did not cut the throats of muslims like we did in Turkey..

Before trying to find spots in your ´eternal enemies´, you just look around abit..

is that the reason why there are only a a couple thusands of Turks left in Greece. how about the genocide they carried out in Cyprus against Muslims?

I`m not saying its all bad in Greece. it`s you who says that for Turkey.

You mean because Greeks have been killing all the Turks there?

You have to seriously check the definition of genocide if you ask me.. I am worried you will be using it for ´street fights´ very soon..

Anyway..You completely managed the topic again..

Do you have anything to say to my original question?

does that change the fact that the Greek wanted to genocide all the Turks in Cyprus and managed to murder thousands of Turks there? if it wasn`t for the Turkish operation, all the Turks there would have been killed by the greek. they wanted to kill all the Turks, but they couldn`t manage to do it. That`s called a genocide in legal terms, because there was an intention for genocide.

as for the original topic, I think I have proven that things are not so black and white as you see them.

 different people have different tastes right as you have said earlier "crappy people"  make crappy things.

so what is your point?

 and who are you? an immature boy who wished to study in the west to get more education?

thats even good that greece forbids turkishness, enough, theres a huge plague of mosques now going all across western europe.

we should get back to the topic when the most of middle eastern countries allow non-muslims to openly declare their religions.

you`re just proving who you are. a brainwashed fascist christian missionary... enjoy it. I will not get into a debate with you.

 bravo bravo!

what a wonderful contribution to the discussion.

i suppose no one will rush to protest against your nice post: including LIR, our well mannered vineyards, all knowing alameda, and all the lovely ladies from the west

actually, you keep promising me not to debate with me. you even dont hold to your words.

you come out with a personal insult because you have no good argument, and you get so furious just like all turkish men. hidious. immature.

I wonder what you think you have proved up there

And regarding black and white thing, are you sure about that? is it your idea or someone else´s

Anyway, as I mentioned before if some of my country men spent the same  energy which they have been spending to ´cover up´ our own mistakes, for trying to correct the wrong things in our country, we would not be talking here  about ´why Turkish people are too scared to give a shit for the others killed by Turkish police or the army´ and ´roits in Greece after police killing only ONE boy´..

I was reading the articles about Greece and I came across the statement from the students:

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2008/12/12/..-image-from-the-future/

And their statement started with a poem from Nazim Hikmet:

If I do not burn

If you do not burn

If we do not burn

How will darkness come to light?

(Nazim Hikmet, “Like Kerem&rdquo