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Is nationalism rising in England?
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40.       Jocelyn
1 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 03:19 am

 

Quoting christine

TODAY IS REMEMBERENCE SUNDAY, FOR ME IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT REMEMBERING THE SOLDIERS WHO DIED IN WARS, BUT  ANYONE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES NO MATTER WHAT THEIR NATIONALITY, COLOUR,RELIGION,AGE,SEX,OR SEXUALITY.

 

R.I.P

 

 It´s also about remembering the mothers, wives, children of those killed in all wars, military and civilians alike. Those who are left bear the real sacrifice.

41.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 06:09 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

There was some slack about Western soldiers and Iraq, so I want to share a thought of mine on that You know what, I agree that the invasion of Iraq was badly planned, and had bad effects... HOWEVER (I know I will get slack for this, but I don´t care), are we forgetting that a-hole Sadam was in power there? Are we forgetting what he did in that country? I know we like to say it was all about oil, but I have the images of gassed Kurdish villages imprinted in my brain forever. Somebody had to kick Sadam out. The way in which it happened was horrible, and it shouldn´t have happened in this way AT ALL. But I get this idea that people are painting a picture of a perfect Iraq, where everybody was living in the land of milk and honey with great wealth and freedom. They were all soooo happy untilllll...the evil Westerners came! No, it wasn´t like that at all. The problem is that an army with under-trained young people, with no clear long term tactical plans was sent in, under false pretances (the famous Powell point), at the wrong point in time. The problem has nothing to do with them coming from the West, or with Iraq being the best country in the world pre-invasion time.

 

America was invading Iraq on false pretenses and Kurds tried taking advantage of an Iraq in distress. They collaborated with US against their own country. When Saddam hit them, Turkia was the only country that offered refuge to them.

What looked like Americans backing Kurds, only served to (1) bring two pro-American Kurdish clowns (Talabani and Barzani) temporarily into power but also, (2) put a wedge between the Iraqi Kurds and the rest of Iraq (mainly Arabs) ...

Now, Americans have got what they want and are pulling back (America did not want democracy for Iraq or a military victory of any kind; US was after destablizing Middle East and they have it). Those Kurds who sold Iraq to US will now lose their US backing and will have to face the rest of the Iraqies who feel deeply betrayed by Kurds.

The US game now is to persuade Turkia to act as the resident older brother, protecting North Iraqi Kurds against the wrath of Arabs - before poppies can go home. That is a tough task, because the Iraqi Kurds that Turkia sheltered against Saddam were not very grateful, were they? They have been busy collaborating with PKK and housing PKK camps in North Iraq, making a lot of noise within Turkia. Hence they no longer lead in public popularity polls in Turkia either.

You watch those Kurdish villages when US pulls out and see how the cookie will roll when the mice leave the ship. You and me will then decide whether Americans actually (1) brought peace and democracy to Iraq or (2) totally got what they wanted by destabilising the area (possibly for the oil or interests and security of Israel), but also have set Kurds up for a few dirty dollars.

I also realize that the Kurdish lives need be improved. But any improvement to their lives has to be within an overall improvement of the whole area; an aproach to secure special priviledges for Kurds will not work.

Natural partners for Kurds in improving the area are the rest of the Iraqies and other neighboring countries, who also have a vested interest in the welfare of the same area. Kurds have made a mistake partnering America who had her own (and different) interests.

 



Edited (11/15/2010) by AlphaF

42.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 02:20 pm

It wasn´t only the Kurds that suffered. I know enough refugees from Iraq that live in Holland, and none of them are Kurds. I just hate this black and white view, as if Iraq was heaven for almost all the people living there until it was invaded. It was a country ruled by a power hungry mad-man. Too bad that that power hungry mad-man was put into power there by Western forces in the first place (yes, I know my history ). I think at one point somebody had to do something. I think the timing and way was bad in this case, but I agree that Saddam had to be kicked out at one point. The problem here is that Iraq itself wasn´t ready for such a move yet.

Afghanistan is a different case in my opinion. I think for that country, the time WAS ready. However, I think the military efforts there are too much subject to political populism. Dutch troops who were there before wanted to stay there. They felt like they were making progress, and made a fragile peaceful balance in the area where they stayed. However, fragile is the keyword here. They wanted to stay, to make sure all their efforts weren´t for nothing, breaking down the peace the moment they left. However, politics, politics... The Dutch government didn´t do what was best for Afghanistan, but best for public opinion and votes. So, the troops left. They didn´t want to, but hey, in the end it got certain political parties the votes they hoped for.

43.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 10:35 pm

As for freedom of speech...I don´t think anyone disputes peoples right to protest.  Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.  However, it does work both ways.  If you protest about something you know nothing about or something I am totally against, I reserve the right to MY free speech and speak out against your protest.  (I also reserve the right not to like someone for my own reasons! {#emotions_dlg.lol_fast})



Edited (11/15/2010) by Elisabeth
Edited (11/15/2010) by Elisabeth

barba_mama liked this message
44.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 11:11 pm

 

Quoting Elisabeth

As for freedom of speech...I don´t think anyone disputes peoples right to protest.  Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.  However, it does work both ways.  If you protest about something you know nothing about or something I am totally against, I reserve the right to MY free speech and speak out against your protest.  (I also reserve the right not to like someone for my own reasons! {#emotions_dlg.lol_fast})

 

You may also be sued and punished - if what you wish to say is an insult to someone else, according to the laws and regulations of the society you belong.

That freedom of speech is one´s right to utter absolutely anything that comes to one´s mind is not entirely correct. This is a common control mechanism to avid chaos in civilised societies and can not be construed as a violation one´s "right of self expression".

 

 



Edited (11/15/2010) by AlphaF

45.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 11:36 pm

I liked the free speech message, not because I think everybody should be able to say and do anything. We live in a society with other people, not on little islands on our own. We have to live together, and respect is a big part of that. However, I liked the message because it says something about free speech going both ways. I think it is hypocrite to dislike the facebook message, but not mention the bigotry of the actual protest.

46.       oeince
582 posts
 15 Nov 2010 Mon 11:57 pm

Boob Test for Immigrants

Boobs pic.jpg(Copenhagen, Denmark) Danish People´s Party spokesman, Peter Skaarup, has proposed that extremists would be less likely to attempt entering Denmark if they had to look at naked women´s breasts.

According to Skaarup, a documentary film about Denmark that will be shown as part of an upcoming immigration test for foreigners needs to have a pair of breasts in it, to intimidate any extremists from attempting to enter the tiny Scandinavian country.

Once intimidated by exposed breasts, the extremists can apparently be identified and screened away from eligibility for immigration. I don´t know exactly how this all is supposed to happen.

These guys must be crazy!!!

http://politifi.com/news/Boob-Test-for-Immigrants-1297287.html

47.       oeince
582 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 12:05 am

Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values

 

PARIS (Reuters) - Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans debating Muslim integration to stand up more for Christian values, saying Monday the country suffered not from "too much Islam" but "too little Christianity."

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINTRE6AE3K520101115

Crazy, crazy lady! What happened to secularism chancellor?{#emotions_dlg.rant}



Edited (11/16/2010) by oeince [link]

48.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 01:23 am

 

Quoting oeince

Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values

 

PARIS (Reuters) - Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans debating Muslim integration to stand up more for Christian values, saying Monday the country suffered not from "too much Islam" but "too little Christianity."

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINTRE6AE3K520101115

Crazy, crazy lady! What happened to secularism chancellor?{#emotions_dlg.rant}

 

Isn´t Merkel a right wing plitician? If I´m not mistaken she comes from a Christian party so her words are hardly a surprise. Yet, the fact that she emphasises Judeo-Christian roots of Germany have nothing to do with being a religious country. The article you quoted says

"We expect that those who come here respect them and recognize them, while keeping their personal identity,"

Secular doesn´t mean one where religion is banned, but one where laws are made irrespective of religions and the state and religion do not have the same representatives. It is usually the case that right wing parties gain votes by appealing to religious people and conservatives and left wing parties are less, if at all, religion-oriented and more liberal.

I think law in Germany allows certain things despised/considered sin by Christianity so I wouldn´t worry about Germany staying secular

49.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 02:59 am

"I think law in Germany allows certain things despised/considered sin by Christianity so I wouldn´t worry about Germany staying secular "

daydreamer

 

This is as good a definition of secularism as it can get; A lot of religion and some atheism makes a state verticular, perpendicular and secular. 

{#emotions_dlg.alcoholics}

50.       stumpy
638 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 03:10 am

Quote:oeince

Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values

 

PARIS (Reuters) - Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans debating Muslim integration to stand up more for Christian values, saying Monday the country suffered not from "too much Islam" but "too little Christianity."

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINTRE6AE3K520101115

Crazy, crazy lady! What happened to secularism chancellor?{#emotions_dlg.rant}

It is a realety that is lived pretty much in every secular society.  We have laws that had us remove any religious artifact from public and governmental buildings.  From schools, hospitals, public buildings and govermental buildings.  In a judeo-christian country, the hospitals and schools were built by the religious orders.  The nuns were the teachers and the nurses.

But people of other etnic or religious backround who imigrated to a "judeo-christian" country request to have prayer rooms in schools and us judeo-christians cannot have our crissefixes displayed.  Shi´ites can wear their kirpans to school, jews can wear their yamikas and their cross of david but we cannot say our lords prayer without offending non christians.  A veiled woman can request to have a female to give her the drivers exams to have her drivers permit.  They can ask for time off from work to go to prayer but I have to work on sundays when it is my prayer day, if their time for prayer is refused by the employer they cry out discrimination, racism and biggotry.  The same goes if the shi´ite to remove his kirpan to go to school and the same is said.  But us christians have to remove all of our religiouse icons.

Their is a limit to resonable accomodations before it become unreasonable accomodations.  Why do we have to accomodate others when they do not accomodate us in our own country.  I had to remove my gold cross from my neck because it offended some of my coworkers who were not catholics but I have to see the cross of david, the kirpan and other religious jewelry.

Just something to think about.

 

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