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Is nationalism rising in England?
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50.       stumpy
638 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 03:10 am

Quote:oeince

Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values

 

PARIS (Reuters) - Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans debating Muslim integration to stand up more for Christian values, saying Monday the country suffered not from "too much Islam" but "too little Christianity."

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINTRE6AE3K520101115

Crazy, crazy lady! What happened to secularism chancellor?{#emotions_dlg.rant}

It is a realety that is lived pretty much in every secular society.  We have laws that had us remove any religious artifact from public and governmental buildings.  From schools, hospitals, public buildings and govermental buildings.  In a judeo-christian country, the hospitals and schools were built by the religious orders.  The nuns were the teachers and the nurses.

But people of other etnic or religious backround who imigrated to a "judeo-christian" country request to have prayer rooms in schools and us judeo-christians cannot have our crissefixes displayed.  Shi´ites can wear their kirpans to school, jews can wear their yamikas and their cross of david but we cannot say our lords prayer without offending non christians.  A veiled woman can request to have a female to give her the drivers exams to have her drivers permit.  They can ask for time off from work to go to prayer but I have to work on sundays when it is my prayer day, if their time for prayer is refused by the employer they cry out discrimination, racism and biggotry.  The same goes if the shi´ite to remove his kirpan to go to school and the same is said.  But us christians have to remove all of our religiouse icons.

Their is a limit to resonable accomodations before it become unreasonable accomodations.  Why do we have to accomodate others when they do not accomodate us in our own country.  I had to remove my gold cross from my neck because it offended some of my coworkers who were not catholics but I have to see the cross of david, the kirpan and other religious jewelry.

Just something to think about.

 

Daydreamer liked this message
51.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 05:14 am

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

 

You may also be sued and punished - if what you wish to say is an insult to someone else, according to the laws and regulations of the society you belong.

That freedom of speech is one´s right to utter absolutely anything that comes to one´s mind is not entirely correct. This is a common control mechanism to avid chaos in civilised societies and can not be construed as a violation one´s "right of self expression".

 

 

 

Well, I´ve done my fair share of protesting especially in the past year.  I have managed to stay out of jail, thus far, and have actually done some good!  The problem isn´t always in the message, Alpha...it´s in the delivery.

52.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 06:01 am

 

Quoting Elisabeth

 

 

Well, I´ve done my fair share of protesting especially in the past year.  I have managed to stay out of jail, thus far, and have actually done some good!  The problem isn´t always in the message, Alpha...it´s in the delivery.

 

Delivery is for mid-wives and pizza boys; not for AlphaF  {#emotions_dlg.nargile}

 

Elisabeth liked this message
53.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 03:50 pm

 

Quoting oeince

Merkel urges Germans: stand up for Christian values

 

PARIS (Reuters) - Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans debating Muslim integration to stand up more for Christian values, saying Monday the country suffered not from "too much Islam" but "too little Christianity."

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINTRE6AE3K520101115

Crazy, crazy lady! What happened to secularism chancellor?{#emotions_dlg.rant}

 

The CDU (which is her party) is a Christian party, so this isn´t a very shocking quote, is it? And I don´t see how this comment is a bad thing. The values she is referring to are certain basics like respect for others, helping your neighbors, etc. It´s more a comment like "why complain about other people´s religion if you don´t even know what your own religion stands for." Asking Christians to look at their own values is not the same as using Christianity to rule the country. She is still secular enough to me!

 

PS: My biggest point, she made this comment at the CDU conference, which is ofcourse a bunch of Christians. She wasn´t speaking to Germany as the chancellor. She was speaking to her Christian party as the head of that party. Being a chancellor doesn´t mean she is not allowed to be Christian! So no, she is NOT a crazy crazy lady, what a strange comment to make!

 



Edited (11/16/2010) by barba_mama

54.       oeince
582 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 08:30 pm

The matter is, the head of Christian Democrats, miss the main point that i mentioned in my previous posts. This explaination, which somehow compares two religions doesn´t work to solve the problems. Because the problemis not religion based, its based on exploitation and today its about acceptance! EU officials focus on wrong points for the solution of the problem and their claims just deepens the differences in the society level.

The ironic part of my post is because, EU officials were used to criticize Turkey about secularism. I wonder the reaction of EU officials if there were an Islamic Democrat party in Turkey and compared Cristianity and Islam.

I wish acumen for EU officials. Because they need too much nowadays.



Edited (11/16/2010) by oeince

55.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 08:52 pm

There is a difference between giving constructive criticism, and calling somebody a "crazy crazy lady" for addressing people of her own religion about that religion.

56.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 08:53 pm

Oeince, actually I think you´re missing the point here. Barba Mama explained it: the point was that people should stop picking on other religions and focus on their own. There´s nothing discriminatory about it...

And again, secularism and prohibition of talking about one´s religion are two different things.

All that being said, I agree with what Stumpy staid about immigrants claiming discrimination being given too much. It´s not fair to favour ANY religion or the lack of it.

57.       oeince
582 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 09:12 pm

OK! But just tell me, do the European people accept Muslims to take place in the society? When they were cheap labor force everythibg was OK! But their kids begin to take more important places in the society. Tell me that is acceptable for Europeans.

Europeans called these people first to their countries and now they are uncomfortable with their involvement. I think Germany made the mistake in the beginning. They were supposed to desex the migrants! If these nonsense claim race goes on, I wont be surprised if a nationalist in the Europe offers that!

In my opinion, Merkel intends, "Christians, commit on your religion more than Muslims, to show these are the lands of Christianity"

And I wonder if your comments would be the same if it was not a muslim whom you talk to?



Edited (11/16/2010) by oeince

58.       stumpy
638 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 10:22 pm

 

Quote:oeince

OK! But just tell me, do the European people accept Muslims to take place in the society? When they were cheap labor force everythibg was OK! But their kids begin to take more important places in the society. Tell me that is acceptable for Europeans.

Europeans called these people first to their countries and now they are uncomfortable with their involvement. I think Germany made the mistake in the beginning. They were supposed to desex the migrants! If these nonsense claim race goes on, I wont be surprised if a nationalist in the Europe offers that!

In my opinion, Merkel intends, "Christians, commit on your religion more than Muslims, to show these are the lands of Christianity"

And I wonder if your comments would be the same if it was not a muslim whom you talk to?

oeincy you have totally missed the point that Merkel was trying to make in her statement.

How do you expect a society to accept another when it is forced to set asside it´s own culture and religion? 

We are not permitted to speak of our religious heritage but other religions at the first chance they get throws it out their for all to see and hear.

Taken from the Merkel text:

"We expect that those who come here respect them and recognize them, while keeping their personal identity,"

Merkel said this identity did not limit religious freedom and the same principle must apply for Christians elsewhere, a clear reference to Christian minorities in Muslim countries.

 

"Of course, we´re for freedom to practice one´s faith," she said. "But that also means religious freedom cannot stop at our borders. That applies also for Christians in other countries around the world."

What Merkel says makes sense, please respect my religion because I respect yours.  We accept you immigrate to our country, you can keep your religious identety and you can pratice your religion but do not force us to forsake our religion and our practices to accomodate yours.

I am wondering what do you think christian values are?  What are christian values?

Here is what I remember learning in Catholic school about Christian values:

  • worship of God: "You shall love the Lord your God  with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" ,
  • fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder"
  • renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also",
  • renunciation of violence: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek" ,
  • forgivness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us",
  • unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

 

Correct me if I am wrong but isn´t this similar to islamic values?

 

 

59.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 10:57 pm

 

Quoting oeince

OK! But just tell me, do the European people accept Muslims to take place in the society? When they were cheap labor force everythibg was OK! But their kids begin to take more important places in the society. Tell me that is acceptable for Europeans.

Europeans called these people first to their countries and now they are uncomfortable with their involvement. I think Germany made the mistake in the beginning. They were supposed to desex the migrants! If these nonsense claim race goes on, I wont be surprised if a nationalist in the Europe offers that!

In my opinion, Merkel intends, "Christians, commit on your religion more than Muslims, to show these are the lands of Christianity"

And I wonder if your comments would be the same if it was not a muslim whom you talk to?

 

I have to say that, most of the times, Europeans are quite tolerant towards foreigners.. There might be a degree of fake political correctness in that tolerance but mainly and generically, they are more accommodating comparing to some other counties.. I think the reason might be the Europeans´ colonial past. They somehow mixed with the rest of the world in the past and they have a degree of acceptance of others  for their economical prosperity.

But their racists and nationalists are not better then our racists.. Same primitiveness, low IQ, below average education etc..

When you go to hospitals, all leaflets are written in many languages including Turkish. They are ready to provide translation services if required.. Even when celebrating Christmas, ´Merry Christmas´ is not appreciated and they say something like ´season greetings´ or ´happy holidays´ etc incase non Christians get offended..

I can not see Muslims in Muslim countries changing any of their long traditions for the idea of ´not offending non Muslims´.
Turkey and Turkish people are much more accomodating towards other religions when comparing to middle east and other countries like Pakistan. Because we deny or not or it is not the case right now but Turks lived with non muslims for centuries..Apart from nationalist elements, Turkish people are, generically speaking, relatively more advanced on this respect when compared with eastern/southern muslims.   

Daydreamer and Elisabeth liked this message
60.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 16 Nov 2010 Tue 11:24 pm

To add to what thehandsom said...I think politicians are very good at turning religion into divisive issue and the media is all to happy to add fuel to the fake hysteria. 

 

Also, when politicians belong to a specific party, they must tow the party line, which is usually what their devoted followers want to hear.  I honestly am not familiar with German politics so I can´t comment on Ms. Merkel.  I can comment on politicians in general...most of them are full of s*#t!

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