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Forum Messages Posted by ikicihan

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Thread: ....the problem is that...

441.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 06:33 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

ikicihan,

Senin şarkıyı söyleyenler Mehter takımı esvabını giydiler ve Hilafet Ordusuna katıldılar.

Türk milletine de bir faydaları olmadı....

 

Gerçek millet Kuva-i Milliyeye katıldı ve milletin düşmanlarıo ile döğüştü, seninkiler de milletle döğüştüler.

 

 

We support kuvva-i milliye. If i had lived at that time, i would join kuvva-i milliye without hesitating.
Hilafet is out of topic but if you want to know the khaliph support the kuvva-i milliye, too.
Not only language was corrupted, history corrupted much more. I recommend this book about the history subject. Sarıklı Mücahidler / Kurtuluş Savaşında  by Kadir Mısıroğlu. also you can read ilber ortaylı for non-ideologic but scientific good history.



Thread: ....the problem is that...

442.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 06:16 pm

We are always talking about what had done to Turkish in the past.
I am wondering what is the current stuation in state and TDK.
Any official from TDK may enlighten us, tabii tenezzül ederlerse.

 

We give the name osmanlıca to a language used in sometime in the past.
At that time they dont call it osmanlıca, so we cant blame them they call it osmanlıca.
Official name was lisan-ı osmani meaning the official language in ottoman territory. That doesnt mean it is not turkish. for example we can call "American dili" or "America Birleşik Devletleri Dili" That doesnt mean its not english.

gokuyum liked this message


Thread: ....the problem is that...

443.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 04:15 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

 

Those who consider themselves Turkish must be aware thatothers who ran a Empre in a made up language they called "Osmanlıca" never called themselves Turks.

The name they chose to give to those other then their own kind, especially those with  Turkish ethnic origins, was "etrak-ı biidrak".

If I am a proud Turkish citizen today, with a developing modern language and literature based on my own roots ...why should I try to keep connected to a culture that disowned me ? Unless Ottomans were right to call Turks "senseless".

 

long time propoganda and misinformation worked well. i am not surprised to hear these above. starting from the primary school i heard these hundreds, maybe thousands of times.

 

"etrak-ı biidrak" lardan günümüzde de bol miktarda var. bunlardan her ülkede ve her millette mutlaka bulunur. Özellikle türk diye belirtilmemesi (corrected, misstype again, sorry) muhtemelen osmanli devletinin çok milliyetli olmasından kaynaklanmakta.

Considering someone turk or not is their own choise. racially turkey is less than %50 turk according to researchers. being a turk is more culturel than racial. ottomans were an empire with multi ethnical and cultural society. that is normal for them not to emphasize being turk. but of course they consider themselves as turks.

 

Türk milleti!, Türk milleti!;
Aşk ile sev milliyeti,
Kahret vatan düşmanını, çeksin o mel´un zilleti.

which can be translated in English as:

(Seek) Your ancestors, your grandfathers, your generation, your father
The Turkish nation has always been valiant.
Your armies, many times, have been renowned throughout the world.

Lyrics from Ottoman military band



Edited (1/9/2013) by ikicihan
Edited (1/9/2013) by ikicihan



Thread: ....the problem is that...

444.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 08 Jan 2013 Tue 08:53 pm

a sample text from ottoman era, simple at that time, heavy for us now.:

 

 

Bir Guguklu Saatin Azizliği

Dışarıda yağmur, çamur, soğuk, ziyfos ve karanlık vardı; berbad bir kış akşamıydı. Halbuki içeride salonlar ılık, temiz, aydınlık ve pür
-neş´e idi; çay veriliyordu.
Ben de bu aleme dahildim.

Fakat nedense melul, mahzun bir günümdü... Nezaketle hazırunı selamlamış, birkaç nazikane cümle sarfetmiş ve usulcacık bir köşeye yollanıp orada, ayakta bir süslü masaya dayanub tahayyüle dalmışdım. Ah, hiç şübhe yok ki, şu salonda her şey ve herkes, ilk nazarda, pek hoş, pek cazibedar, pek kaygusuz ve pek asude görünüyordu. Sanki hepimiz bütün işlerimizi yoluna koymuş, iradımızı masrafımıza uydurmuş, kendimizin ve çocuklarımızın istikbalini te´min etmiş, hayatımızı taht-ı emniyete almış, şimdi buraya havaî sohbetler yapmağa, eğlenmeğe gelmişdik. Ev sahibleri, dudaklarında mes´ud tebessümler yapıyorlar, modadan bahs olunuyor, Avrupa´dan dem vuruluyor, yazın yapılacak eğlencelerle bahara çıkılacak seyahatlerin projelerinden konuşuluyor, hülasa müreffeh, mes´ud, tali´li adamlar gibi bu zümre en latif hasbihallerle ne tatlı vakit...

---

There are more words should be selected in the text but i cant find them. The bold lettered words should be eliminated by TDK! 



Thread: ....the problem is that...

445.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 08 Jan 2013 Tue 06:55 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

Here a paragraph from  Turkish novel called Araba Sevdası written in 1898 ;

not even 160 years ago. You can see the real extremness here. 

 

 

"Burası (Çamlıca Bahçesi) namiyle İstanbul´da en evvel tanzim ve küşad olunmuş olan bahçedir. Birkaç zamandan beri rağbet-i ammeden bütün bütün mehcur olduğu cihetle, ekser eyyamda kapıları kapalı durur .

Yazın ve bahusus baharlarda bu bahçeyi açtırıp da aşağıki kapıdan içerisine girerseniz, beş on kadem ilerleyerek etrafınıza bir nazar ediverince muazzam ve mamur bir ravza-i dilküşa içinde bulunduğunuza derhal kaail olursunuz.

 

 

küşad and ravza-i dilküşa words, i dont know these, all other understandable for me. yes, it is a heavy text. but it is a literature text, not a public language. We dont know whether the people at that time understand this or not, no one still alive.

 

after getting arabic education, it is not hard to understand. if i got farsi education besides i think i would understand the full text. in olden times arabic and farsi lessons are in all school and all educated people know and understand these words. These books written for them and at that time there was no communication problem with writers and educated people. un-educated people then and still dont read books. texts for all public has siplier language than literature books such as newspapers.

We dont understand these books now and we think that at the time the book written people dont understand, too. this is our prejudice. We dont understand these books know due to the fact that arabic and persian lessons were removed from public schools except some special schools and a long period of time exreme purification processs.



Edited (1/8/2013) by ikicihan
Edited (1/8/2013) by ikicihan



Thread: ....the problem is that...

446.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 08 Jan 2013 Tue 06:35 pm

Pazartesi gününün Eski Türkçe adı İkinç tir.
Salı gün adı dilimize iki ayrı dilden gelmiştir; ilki Arapça üçüncü gün anlamında Sellase, Selase ثلاثة sözcüğü, ikincisi de Farsça-Süryanice gene üçüncü gün anlamında Seşenbe sözcüğüdür.
Çarşamba Sözcük, Farsça-Süryanice dördüncü gün anlamında "çıhar-şenbe/ çeharşenbe/çarşanba" sözcüğünden gelir. Eski Türkçe´de bu günün adı Törtünç > Dördüncü dür.
Perşembe, Farsça-Süryanice beşinci gün anlamındaki "Penc-şenbe" sözcüğünden gelir, "Çarşamba" sözcüğüne uyaklı olarak "Perşembe" olarak söylenir. Eski Türkçedeki ismi Beşünç´tür.
Cuma sözcüğünün kökünün Arapça olduğu varsayımına göre Kur´an bu günü haftalık toplantı günü sayması ile de uyuşarak "جمع CM´A" "toplanmak" kökünden gelir. Bu günün Türkçe adı, Altıncı Gün, Eski Türkçe Altınç tır.
Cumartesi. Bu günün Eski Türkçe´deki anlamı Şanba´dır. Şanba kelimesi Türkiye dışındaki bütün Türki cumhuriyetlerde cumartesi olarak kullanılmaktadır. Eski Türkçe´de bu günün adı Yetinç/Yedinci dir.


Old Turkic:
birinç kün   
ikinç kün   
üçünç kün   
törtinç kün   
beşinç kün   
altınç kün   
yetinç kün

Turkish:
Pazartesi
Salı
Çarşamba
Perşembe
Cuma
Cumartesi
Pazar


Azərbaycan dili:   
Bazar ertəsi
Çərşənbə axşamı
Çərşənbə
Cümə axşamı
Cümə
Şənbə
Bazar

For English:

•    Sunday: Old English Sunnandæg (pronounced [sun.nan.dæg] or [sun.nan.dæj), meaning "sun´s day". This is a translation of the Latin phrase dies Solis. English, like most of the Germanic languages, preserves the original pagan/sun associations of the day. Many other European languages, including all of the Romance languages, have changed its name to the equivalent of "the Lord´s day" (based on Ecclesiastical Latin dies Dominica). In both West Germanic and North Germanic mythology the Sun is personified as a goddess, Sunna/Sól.
•    Monday: Old English Mōnandæg (pronounced [mon.nan.dæg] or [mon.nan.dæj´, meaning "Moon´s day". This is likely based on a translation of the Latin name dies lunae. In North Germanic mythology, the Moon is personified as a god, Máni.
•    Tuesday: Old English Tīwesdæg (pronounced [ti.wes.dæg] or [ti.wes.dæj], meaning "Tiw´s day." Tiw (Norse Týr) was a one-handed god associated with single combat and pledges in Norse mythology and also attested prominently in wider Germanic paganism. The name of the day is based on Latin dies Martis, "Day of Mars" (the Roman war god).
•    Wednesday: Old English Wōdnesdæg (pronounced [woːd.nes.dæg] or [woːd.nes.dæj) meaning the day of the Germanic god Wodan (known as Óðinn among the North Germanic peoples), and a prominent god of the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanic peoples) in England until about the seventh century. It is based on Latin dies Mercurii, "Day of Mercury". The connection between Mercury and Odin is more strained than the other syncretic connections. The usual explanation is that both Wodan and Mercury were considered psychopomps, or leaders of souls, in their respective mythologies; both are also associated with poetic and musical inspiration. The Icelandic Miðviku, German Mittwoch and Finnish keskiviikko all mean ´mid-week´.
•    Thursday: Old English Þūnresdæg (pronounced [θuːn.res.dæg] or [θuːn.res.dæj]), meaning ´Þunor´s day´. Þunor means thunder or its personification, the Norse god known in Modern English as Thor. Similarly German Donnerstag (´thunder´s day´ and Scandinavian Torsdag (´Thor´s day´. Thor´s day corresponds to Latin dies Iovis, "day of Jupiter", the chief of the Roman gods, wielder of the thunderbolt.
•    Friday: Old English Frīgedæg (pronounced [fri.je.dæg] or [fri.je.dæj]), meaning the day of the Norse goddess Fríge. The Norse name for the planet Venus was Friggjarstjarna, ´Frigg´s star´. It is based on the Latin dies Veneris, "Day of Venus". Venus was the Roman goddess of beauty, love and sex.
•    Saturday: the only day of the week to retain its Roman origin in English, named after the Roman god Saturn associated with the Titan Cronus, father of Zeus and many Olympians. Its original Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg (pronounced [sæ.tur.nes.dæg] or [sæ.tur.nes.dæj]). In Latin it was dies Saturni, "Day of Saturn". The Scandinavian Lørdag/Lördag deviates significantly as it has no reference to either the Norse or the Roman pantheon; it derives from old Norse laugardagr, literally ´washing-day´.



Edited (1/8/2013) by ikicihan



Thread: ....the problem is that...

447.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 08 Jan 2013 Tue 05:01 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

Of course it is understandable. Because in that old English text, there is not non-English words. Are they ? If there is, may be one or two. Unlike Ottoman literature dominated by foreign origin words.There is no complicated half german - half french compound structures in their language as in Ottoman language had arabic and farsi compounds which would kill not only non-Turkish learners but also ordinary Turks to understand. Simple is that. 

============================================

When it comes to the richness, Turkish is as rich as English, if it wasn´t been ignored by our "elites".

 

what is english words? the words known and used by english speaking people or the words originates from english only? i read history of english and i think the first one is right. english is dominated by french german and many other words. but if someone offers to get rid of these foreign originated words in english, people call him crazy...

i dont support extreme usage of persian arabic words and compounds, and actually they are used in only some literature text, in official documents. people always have spoken understandable turkish with all its loan words throughout turkish history. but after french revolution nationatistic ideas were widespread. in the first half of the 20th century these ideas got out of control in many countries. in german, state heads thought of pure german race; in turkey, state heads thought pure turkish lnaguage, in some other countries some other oddness took place...



Thread: ....the problem is that...

448.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 08 Jan 2013 Tue 05:23 am

Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë, published on 16 October 1847.

second page, second paragraph as an example

"A breakfast-room adjoined the drawing-room, I slipped
in there. It contained a bookcase: I soon possessed myself
of a volume, taking care that it should be one stored with
pictures. I mounted into the window-seat: gathering up my
feet, I sat cross-legged, like a Turk; and, having drawn the
red moreen curtain nearly close, I was shrined in double
retirement."

Even if more than 160 years passed since it was written and it is being read by a non native english reader it still has a good, rich and understandable language.



Thread: the plurar of words

449.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 08 Jan 2013 Tue 04:30 am

you are right about -lar, -ler suffix but where is "y"



Thread: ....the problem is that...

450.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 07 Jan 2013 Mon 10:39 pm

my artificial definition is may be different than most people.

if one person or a group of experts got together and produce a word, i call this artificial. it doesnt mean always bad, it is sometimes good if based on certain valid rules. and someof this artificial words become natural if accepted by most of the public.

if artificial words produced for already known and widespread old words, i ask, wait a minute, what are you trying to do. if good artificial words produced for new words, new invented things mostly technological, new foreign words; no problem, go on working, it is good.

 

TDK (Turkish Language Association) did not accepted the harm they caused, did not give up the controversial language purification process even if they stopped now temporarily. If one day, TDK officials say that we did such and such things, they were wrong, sorry about that, we will no longer continue to this elimination process, instead of this we will work on projects good for turkish; at that day they will deserve my respect otherwise i will continue trying to reduce their harm!



Edited (1/7/2013) by ikicihan
Edited (1/7/2013) by ikicihan [mistyped words corrected]



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