Rather than take the current popular post in the forum, in a new direction, I have started this one so the Armenian issue is not confused with the PKK issue.

How can the world expect Turkey to act with restraint against the PKK? This has been going on for over 30 years! Did the US use restraint when attacking Irak over 9/11? Did US ally, Israel use restraint went it leveled Beirut again over one single soldier? The problem with American diplomacy is its incredible hypocracy applied for itself and its allies.

The Republican government of USA has terrorized all the world in the name of fighting terrorism, are you calling for the same action to be done by the Turkish Army? To be with the same level with those Republican Hypocrates??
To shed blood in the name of fighting terror...
I can ask you one question and it is so easy :
If a thief entered your house and took all of your family as hostages, then could give all the right to the police to kill all of you in the sake of getting that thief arrested???

Turkey has the absolute right to defend its borders. The Republic of Turkey is being consistently attacked by members of the PKK who train and reside in Irak. Every nation in the world would protect its people and end this threat. Turkey has exercised patience to satisfy the United States long enough. Its now time for Turkey to act in its own interests and protect its people. All peoples of Turkey support this action.

So unforunately you are going after the classical games of politicians? Do you have any idea about those terrorists where are they? US Army invaded Afganistan and Iraq but what was the result??

By the way let it be clear are you speaking according to the intrests of people or the words coming out from the fat politians pockets... take care there is a big difference between these two cases. None of the politians are acting due to the what people like to make their life secure and happy! Politians saying yes for wars and sheding blood, while the majority of people on this poor earth calling for peace!!!!! And you are free to be on what side you decided.

If Turkey is able to mobilize inside the irak border, Turkey is safer. Training bases will be found and eliminated.

The US provides Turkey with 1 BILLION dollars in aid every year, which part of my tax dollars are funding their airbases. But WHERE was turkey in 2003 when we needed to use their border to open a northern front on Iraq? Not long after that Bush traveled to Turkey and paid them an
additional 2 billion + $$$$. At times I happen to believe that Turkey is only allied with the US when it is in THEIR interest.

Well, we learned yesterday just how devastating this loss of a northern base was. Because of Turkey’s antics three years ago, and the high cost of their lack of cooperation. We would have been able able to get the 4th Infantry Division into Iraq from the north, more of Saddam’s goons would have been captured or killed, and the insurgency would be far less than it was today.

Actually, it’s also possible we should be pleased that Turkey refused to allow US troops to enter Iraq from the North. As I understand it, the Turkish Parliament voted and the US proposal was defeated by only three votes. What was actually proposed was (1) for US troops to enter Kurdistan from the Turkish side, (2) move south to attack Iraqi nationalist army positions and (3) be replaced by Turkish forces, which were to occupy much of northern Iraq to “prevent Kurdish refugees from flooding into Turkey”.

The leaders of the various Kurdish militias in Northern Iraq stated, in no uncertain terms, that they WOULD treat occupation by Turkish troops as a Turkish invasion and would fight. In other words, we may have just missed kicking off an even wider war by three votes.

So now we face the dilemma that Turkey wants to interviene by uprooting the most stable part of Iraq. I'm curious, why now? If this has been going on for years....It wasn't convienent for you 4 years ago and now it is?

Several bombs set by the PKK have gone off near my home. Most notably, the HSBC Bank building at the levent metro station. I do not need a politician to tell me the PKK is a problem and we need to dismantle them. The military has known this for years and has held off because of the politicians.

OK Teaship,
Your recent history is very wrong. Turkey turned down money from the US to allow the invasion to take place from Turkish borders. Why? Because Turkey was not allowed to participate in the invasion. This would be the equivelent of the US allowing an ally to attack mexico from texas. And have the nerve to tell the US to stay out of it. Turkey acted honorably. The US money that goes to turkey for air bases is no different than the money all NATO nations receive for allowing air bases in their country. Its called rent. The pentagon considers this rent money well spent I assure you.

4 years ago, the PKK was quiet and at a truce with Turkey. In the last 4 years, they have stepped up their attacks. Turkey would have voted to allow the US access to NW Irak as I said if they were allowed to join the operation.

And your people have a right to defend themselves. I'm not disagreeing with you serdar.

I believe you serdar. Nothing about this war with the PKK is pretty.

As I said teaship, the PKK had a cease fire with turkey for several years. Since the US invasion of Irak, their suicide bombings in turkey have begun again.

And you really believe the smart thing for the Turkish people would be to cross into Iraq and fight?

Turkey's refusal to open its land for invasion of Iraq one of the most honorable act I have ever seen from Turkey.
Money? money for blood of Iraqies? Thank you!

About invading northern Iraq: I absolutely disagree with that idea. Turkey did it in past several times. PKK is still PKK. And everybody knows that the terror is not going to finish with that operation. Those operations proved to be not successful. Even the prime minister told several months ago there is no need for that.
The timing is quite interesting, however. 2/3 of American supplies are coming from Turkey through northern Iraq. That operation will hamper those supply roots. It might be Turkey's response to USA's armenian decision.
And Turkey and Iran have always been spectical about the Kurds. And I think there will be an Kerkuk referendum about in the near future.
Turkey has been warning Kurds for a long time about their treatment of Turkomans.
I dont think Americans and Turks will be fighting in northern Iraq. I doubt that kurdish pehmerges will try to stop Turkey either, if it happens.
But one thing for sure that it wont finish PKK and it may even force PKK to start active fighting again.
So the result might be more bloodshed.

Again dear Kethil!
Don't forget your words about starting this thread!Arminian+Kurds+PKK+North of Iraq= ????
what is this time can you think about clearly???

So how many more bombs need to be exploded? If not going after the PKK, then what is the answer? These attacks are not limited to tourist spots. The HSBC Bank, the british consulate, the shopping mall in Ankara. They are doing more than frightening tourists in resort areas.
For now, all the army wants to do is "hot pursuit" after an attack.

and there is credible evidence that they are linked.

to all participants in the discussion TUrkia - Iraq - PKK - USA..

1. PKK is a terrorist organisation, hitting Turkia from PKK bases in Northern Iraq. Turkia has had enough of them.

2. USA is run by conceited politicians, who do not hesitate singing disapproval to all forms of terrorism, and pledge allegiance to Turkia in a fight where terrorism appears to hurt Turkish sovereignity...yet Turkish intelligence has irrefutable proof that PKK guns are supplied by the USA (my personal opinion is that tactics used by terrorists are also supplied by either American or British staff officers) - if not directly, through mafiatic private armies run by private US firms. (one interesting point for friends in the group, can be checking who owns companies like BLACKWATER, info is available in the net)

3. The ideal solution would be for Iraq Army (as the legal sovereign power in the area)or the US ARMY (as the democracy singing bandits in power) to stop and destroy the terrorists within Iraq boundaries.. This does not seem to happen: Mainly because Iraq is temporarly incapable, and US government is run by a bunch of crooks.

Under the conditions I expect Turkia will intervene, not in hostility to a brother neighbour, but to clear the terrorist elements within reach of Turkish border. The operation will be limited and will in no way relieve Americans from the mess they got themselves into in Southern Iraq.

Anyone who wants to fight against Turkia, to protect PKK terrorism, will be more than welcome to join forces agaoinst this thoruoghly justified intervention..We shall see whether a permission from USA is required for this operation or not, when the right time comes.

Being Kurdish is not something to be frowned upon.

Be careful in differentiating terrorists and Kurdish citizens of Turkia...

It is very unfortunate that totally innocent civilians suffer in a fight with terrorists. This is the nature of terrorizm where terrorists cohabit with civilians: it sometimes becomes hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Turkish Army, if they are bombing at all, aim at very specific targets. Even Serdaro knows KANDIL MOUNTAIN houses the terrorists, and that is where the shells fall.

No terrorist group can forever hide under skirts of innocent civilians and hope to survive.

What is unfortunate is while everybody knows where the terrorist are, after scores of bombings in Turkey killing many civilians, and after Turkia declares that- in the absence of cooperation fron USA or Iraqi Government - a unilateral solution will be found to destroy the terrorists, at whatever the cost...no local authorities, neither Iraqi government nor the local bandits, appear interested to cooperate in solutions that woukd endanger less civilian lives. THAT SOLUTION CAN NOT BE "LET TERRORISTS LIVE", PKK has to go...

People here in this group can perhaps now understand why the Ottoman Empire had to force the non-terrorist Armenian citizens to leave the problem area, when rebel Armenians donned French Army uniforms/weapons and took to mountains, against their own country.

I have read this thread with great interest but its getting a little deep now for me to follow lol.

However, i will try and word this question in a way not to offend or insult anyone. Please write and tell me, if it has in any way.

Here in England, some people not all might i had, see Muslims or should i say asian people as Terrorists. This is down to lack of education about the Asian community here and peoples ignorance too

Do the Kurdish community have the same problem because of the organisations causing problems.

my question is: will turkey end the problem with pkk if it enters iraq today?
is pkk only in iraq?
what about other neighbouring countries where pkk hides?
if entering iraq solves the problem for now and ever, and pkk will disappear for ever then why not?

I hope that PKK problem will find its solution soon

We have been discussing this in other Turkish forums as well. It is a very hot topic. And, somehow, it always ends up somebody is accusing others as traitors.

First of all some facts :

-We have around 15 million kurds in Turkey.

-Their social economical conditions are pretty bad comparing to what we have in rest of Turkey. (GDP 500$ to 7.000-8.000$ in avg)

-The recent conflict started earlier around first part of 1980s (Military times! in Turkey) because of military regime was extra harsh on Kurds changing the village names, forcing the Turkish names etc. (They were harsh everywhere but specially in the southeast they really showed their teeth)

-First reaction of the military for the rebels was 'they are handful terrorists.we will finish them'

-was it finished? NO

-Later on officials tried to describe kurds by saying that 'there is no ethnic group in Turkey called Kurds. They are mountain Turks'. It was a quite pathetic description!

-Harsh approach continued towards the mountain Turks. The theme was same as today. 'There are terrorists. We dont have kurdish problem'.And PKK flourished.

-During this period, many villages, somehow, destroyed. Many cases went to EU Human rights courts. Kurdish population become thin in rural areas.

-PKK was so strong at some stage. They would stop and search coaches.

-Governments changed tactics and started to cooperate with the local tribes, arming them against pkk. The result of that was blood bath.(In the end, a huge war machine has been created with local militias and everything. Of course, each war machine needs fuel to continue!)


-Capturing their leader was a turning point in this war. Because he is the undisputed leader of pkk, he started to soften his group. (that is where my comment 'I still think pkk is in the passive/defensive position. ' is coming from!! and everybody, who has a little bit of knowledge about politics in Turkey, knows that)


-The official line has always been the same :'we have terrorism only, we dont have Kurdish problem'

-Turkey performed several incursions into Northern Iraq in the past. Did they finish the terror? NO. Did those hot pursuits damaged them? NO

And now, most of the intellectuals in Turkey realize that we have a problem.
And the problem is between our borders. Not somewhere else. The problem we have is generating the terrorism. And the terrorism wont go away unless we deal with the problem.

I am against the hot pursuit into northern Iraq because it will achieve nothing as far as the terrorism is concerned.
I simply, dont want any of my country men dying for this problem anymore. Enough is enough

Maybe my post is somehow different but I am sure it's going on the same line as this thread!
Somedays ago in one of Learning Turkish and cuture forums I suggested to post some learning materials in Turkish- Kurdish language especially for those in North Iraq that are fond of learning Turkish. But the moderators of that forum afraid and appologized that if I posted a thread in Kurdish hundreds of Turkish members will leave that forum,
Now I can ask, the Turkish Army and government saying there are about 3500 terrorists of PKK in North of Iraq. How about millions of Turkish and Kurdish in this world you want to creat enamity among them???????????????
Who will get all the benefits from that?!

i dont think that entering iraq will solve any problem. there will always be terrorists among kurdish as long as the governments ignore the problems in east. 80 % men in southeast are jobless!!! only about 10% people have computer!!! there are lots of problems...

imagine ..you are a kurdish in one of the towns in the east of Turkey and seeing beautiful lives on TV..in TV series..wonderful houses..beautiful cars..beautiful women..Istanbul..bosphorus..and you turn the TV off..and you look around..you realise how different your life is to lives you see on TV.. this make them think life in this country is unfair to them..this make them think that the state is not equal to its all citizens.

the next day..you get out of house..and suddenly a soldier or cop stops you on street and ask your ID card as if you did something wrong. he asks you questions like ' why you are here'.. then you go somehwere like cafe which all your friends ( most of them are jobless) sit until evening. you have nothing to do..no money to buy anything for your family..

i cant belive that our clever generals and politicans think the problem will be solved by a military campaign:S

This will make me the most unpopular by both sides. If countries involved cared about peace they would give the Kurdish people their own country. Kurdistan. A little bit of Turkey and a little bit of Iraq. OH NO! No one would want to do that, even though isn't it kind of the right thing to do? Not out of fear of the PKK, but aren't the Kurdish people a unique people and that is what they want? Just an idea...feel free to attack me now.

This is a very naive statement. Are you really making the proposition that Turkey, Iran and Iraq give part of their territory to make a larger Kurdistan? Do you think this will bring peace in the area? Do this simple test. Put "map of kurdistan" & "map of armenia" in Google, pick image and see what you get. Then drill down and look at the resources included in the maps. You will see the maps all go to waterfront territory and include some of the same vital resources.

What you are calling for is segregation based on ethnic background. It's the same as whites wanting to live with and go to school with "their own kind", and give them territory where then can do it. Where will this end up?

If you extrapolate, we will we be doing DNA analysis to see just who belongs to what group and then "give" them their own territory? What then?

Turkey is a democratic country that has many ethnic groups as well as people who of mixed ethnicity. No country willingly gives up territory, and in particular vital territory.

It did not take more than a few months for Indonasia and the representatives of Aceh to solve the "Aceh Problem," but it has taken more than 80 years for the Turks to recognize the very existence of the Kurdish people.

Turkey wants to become a member of the EU, but the behavior of Turkey is far from that of civilized Europe. The Turks don't even recognise the Iraqi Constitution and refuse negotiating with any Iraqi delegation with representatives of the Kurdistan Regional Government in it. If you don't negotiate with the constitutionally recognized Kurdistan Regional Government, then how can you expect them to solve your problems?!

Turks are famous for their nationalism. How does the average Turk view the possibility of getting more involved in this war?

(( Nothing Much Shameful than the Blind and Blood-Sucker Nationalism for the Humanity! ))
I mean the both sides of this crisis Turk and Kurds...
Do you want questions and answers about that?

I really dont understand anyones objections here. What would the US do if sandiego was getting attacked by terrorists in tiajuana?

As Wilhelm Reich said in his book many years ago " Listen Little Man!"
http://www.listenlittleman.com/
Here I can again tell every blind and empty prouded nationalistic from all nations " Listen Little Nationalist!"
While you are in the middle east and crying that the West World is looking down on you remember you are imitating them but with so bad timing. In Europe the Nationalistic Wars do nothing than making the people poor and backwards but after the World War II they learned the lesson very well and made the EU. But now here in the Middle-East still there are little men calling for imitating the wars done 1000 years ago.
If you are not Deaf , then listen little nationalist better to call for peace in this region than your wild shouting for more blood.

Me burro esta muerto

Britain has always invaded and pillaged places that they shouldn't had been in,I'm English(sorry British,I don't want to end up in court in some racist slur)and I can't find a reason to defend this country.
It's a bit off topic but,I heard a great story today about the 'Great Brittishness'
Politicians here are claiming upto 200K per year in expenses(aswell as their 100k per year they already earn),yet my Mother has woked for 55 years without a break,and without claiming any benefits,now she has come to retirement,she's been promised a whole 50 quid a week!Illegal immigrants coming to this country get more than this,sorry and without shame Handsom and being a native even,I agree with you and what you said,we pay the price of the greedy few above us in our illustrious history and our ever undefendable future what can we say?

Time for Iraqies to wake up....Iraq is now practically divided into three parts.

A part under Shiite control, in close ties with Iran; the Sunni part; and the bonus tentatively reserved for PKK , the Northern Iraq.

What USA is looking for is an ally in the area, for his dirty game. If Turkia agrees to support the USA's dirty game (which she will not), Americans will not hesitate to sell the PKK and the whole of the Kurdish population, in Turks favor...not for one second. But Turkish people have now sensed that there is something rotten in USA intentions. There is no civil Turkish government that can fullfil USA wishes against the better judgement of her own people.

Turkey, if she can be lured or intimidated to follow USA, against her own interests is obviously a better organised and stronger ally. But that is not how it is going to work: Syria, Turkia and Iran are now wise to the Americans game..Russia is alert...China is disturbed.

USA REPUBLICANS can start a new world war..

Good luck all!

Those who are really interested in the issue should check the international treaties as to how the sovereignity of original IRAQ and her boundaries were set up and try to see what happens if Iraq, which was a party to those treaties, ceases to exist, as defined in those treaties.

Your taxes go up and lazy people have more money then those who work because of the welfare state, nothing wrong with privatization.
I don't know about the jobs, but there's tons of immigrants in your country, so it can't be that bad! You're still richer per capita then 90% of the world!
Weather...? Give this option to anyone from sunny Antalya, let's see if they will hesitate. Please, set your priorities straight.

hmmm lazy people?we work as hard as anyone,welfare state?i refer to my first post on this subject,'nothing wrong with privatisation'?like how?Robbing native people of their jobs?the private companies paying little or if no tax into their country?Their workers?Are they paying into the U.K?
'There are tons of immigrants in the country'
1.They are driving the hourly wage down of native people,so because they work for nothing per hour in their own countries,as one of the strongest nations in the world we should have to drop our wage structure?
2.Are they not a drag on our 'ever lasting' Health system?don't they ever get ill?do they have private insurance?do they pay for medical attention when they come here?Who pays for this treatment 'them'?with their already driven down price per hour?or us paying our taxes 25% and 8% national insurance?
Sunny Antalya seems fine to me,compared to this fiasco,why arent YOU living here?There's always room for one more!

I am new to this forum but i am interested to know how the Kurdish people feel about the situation in northern Irak.

Can someone also please explain to me why some Turkish people seem not to like Kurdish people.

What does an economy sanctions mean for you? Can they control not apply that on innocent people or they are considering all who live in North of Iraq are PKK supporters?!

OUESTION
Why do Turks seem to hate Kurds?
REPLY
This is a stupid question. Equivalent to "Why do Americans hate blacks?". Turkia's problem is with PKK, not Kurds. As events become clearer, we shall see that PKK is not only Kurds.
QUESTION
Why the Kurds who are also Turkish citizens and who hold a seat in Turkish Parliment, do not openly denounce PKK as a terror group?
REPLY
You certainly got me on that question !

Then let's be clear and more open...
We are against war and killing.
Then kurds in north of Iraq fought sholder to sholder with Turkey Army against PKK in 1993 and 1996 and also 1998!
Many Kurdish families in Iraq suffered from what PKK did for their teenager when some PKK members were cheating them and made them to join that group.

I am not going to argue today because it is LOVE DAY ! However, I cannot agree with any of your statements Teaschip.

With regard to foreign aid. I didn't say it was crap. I said your comments about the USA being "kind hearted" were crap! Foreign aid is not about being kind hearted - it is not PERSONALLY donated by citizens of that country. You cannot deny that foreign aid is used as a tool. The USA rarely gives it without "conditions" to their advantage. Please check what I say next time you "google".

Incidently, when you compare the population of the UK compared to the USA, I would say that the USA are definitely not giving enough foreign aid!!!!!

Population of UK: 60,776 million - Foreign Aid: 12,607 million
Population of US: 301,139 million - Foreign Aid: 22,739 million

You do the maths!

28 Ekim 2007 tarihli Türkiye Gazetelerinden haberler=

- Başbakan, "Avrupa ülkelerinin ve ABD'nin, terrörist örgütlerle mücadelede, Türkiye'ye destek olmadıklarını," söyledi."Samimi değiller ve bir takım projeler peşindeler".

- MASAK Başkanı " Terör örgütü ile bağlantılı kimselere her saldırı için yurt dışından adam başı 150 Euro gönderildiğini saptadık," dedi.

- Eski Terörle Mücadele Koordinatörü, "Terör örgütünü kollayan ABD ve AB'dir," dedi."Uluslararası destekçileri olmasa, terör örgütü ayakta kalamaz".

- Bir Türk Vatandaşı, "Türkiye'nin iki yüzlü dostları ve müttefikleri var.Bunlar açıkça belli.Atatürk'ün dediği gibi, Türk ulusunun düşmanları, aynı zamanda insanlığın da düşmanlarıdırlar.Ama Yüce Türk milleti, Allahın izniyle, bunlara gereken cevabı ve karşılığı verecek kadar güçlüdür," dedi.