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Şark Islahat Planı 1925
(43 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 06 Apr 2008 Sun 11:41 am

Şark Islahat Planı 1925
I never knew this document existed (shame on me!!). But, I came across when I was reading one of my favorite teacher/politician/academic baskin oran's articles.
"Şark Islahat Planı 1925" can be translated as "plan for eastern restoration/rehabilitation 1925".

I wont go and try to translate every item of it but I think some of them needs translation to make kurdish issue, we are facing right now, more clear and stop the confusion about if there was an asimilation or we/Turks what mistakes we made about it etc.


Actually, a very similar plan is prepared during army intervention during 1960s..(I am sure it was followed by the generals and the deep state during 1980s)
Anyway the gist of it:

asimilation: it wants the assimilation of kurds.

item 14: it mentions what needs to be done for temassul (means assimilation): opening 'Türk Ocakları-racist/turk associations/clubs-, mükemmel kız mektepleri-perfect girls schools-, leyli iptidailer-boarding schools '

colonization
item 5: immigrants from Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Azerbaycan and plus laz population were going to sent to kurdish areas
migration:
item numbers 5., 9. and 15: say that kurds should be moved with their families to the places where turks live.
abstraction:
item 2: it says that east should have 5 different areas and item nimber 25 says that foreigners should not be let enter the area without permission
missionaries:
item 15: ..recommends that boys and girls should be raised as missionaries and they should be supported for higher education

and also in the plan at 1960, they added something to what we had in 1925
- teaching kurds that they are turks
-explaining the intellects of the world that turkey does not have kurdish problem
-and establishing anew institute which will prove that kurts are actually 'mountain turks'

sourcesturkish)
http://nedir.net/sark-islahat-plani.html
http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.php?ek=r2&haberno=7931

2.       incişka
746 posts
 23 Apr 2008 Wed 11:36 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

- teaching kurds that they are turks
-and establishing anew institute which will prove that kurts are actually 'mountain turks'



How stupid! Let them be Kurds! What's wrong with that? Does everyone living in Turkey have to be Turk? If I were a Kurd, I would never want to say "I am a Turk". I would only say "I'm a citizen of Turkey".

3.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 02:18 am

Quoting incişka:

Quoting thehandsom:

- teaching kurds that they are turks
-and establishing anew institute which will prove that kurts are actually 'mountain turks'



How stupid! Let them be Kurds! What's wrong with that? Does everyone living in Turkey have to be Turk? If I were a Kurd, I would never want to say "I am a Turk". I would only say "I'm a citizen of Turkey".


incişka, thank you for posting something to this.
Somehow, nobody wanted to say anything about it.

BUT, actually, in fact, those documents are a serious blow and a slap on the face to anybody who insists that we treated kurds fairly and equally.

When you hear people are saying 'ah no. there was no assimilation at all. The problem is just the terrorism.' etc, i really think those people dont know much about what the real problem is!!

4.       gernas
58 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 02:43 am

thanks handsome for the useful information, enlightening how organized the republic of (only) turks has been beginning from the very early days even ottoman days...

enlightenment started in 17th century for the civilized people of the world (though some faced the shame hitler and musollini caused, but they almost overcame it)... what a pity some are still late for that! still many defending those stupid "secret" plans, see şemdinli bombing by state forces to a bookstore run by a kurd as a most recent act accordingly or fresh statements of the head of turkish history institution (türk tarih kurumu)claiming kurds arent still kurds (this institution calls armenians to handle the issue of genocide in an impartial, objective meeting), or the turkish prime minister not saying hi to the kurdish parliamentarian at the 23rd april reception...

how many more years, how many more centuries will it be like this!

i honestly want a noah's flood for my country! and honestly i want to be the first to get drowned for sake of better generations who truly deserve taking breath and drink water on these beautiful land!

5.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 10:21 am

Cheers Handsom, that surely shed some light on the non-existent Kurdish problem. I'm waiting to hear opinions on the source - I'm betting on Kurdish provocation

There are two ways to brainwash everybody - one is by constantly repeating there are no Kurds in Turkey and I'm sure this one can be proven (throughout history bigger lies found scientific explanations); the other by making society believe they are threatened by Kurds. Here, PKK paradoxically does a good job to the Turkish government because they can use it as proof of Kurdish violence against the republic Turks love so much.

Too bad those means work and we see Turks saying they have no problem with Kurds, that it's Kurds who have a problem with Turkey for no reason. The beasts.

6.       janissary
0 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 01:41 pm

At last, you will get a big zero. u are trying to satisfy urself but in turkey everything is not as u told to foreign ppl. we know this. I dont care what others and europen Union thinks. coz there is one thing that all ppl when come to turkey forgets what u post here and sees the reality. the modern Turkey. it wont work, keep working! Im just laughing at you. but I DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THİNG. HOW COME u all hate turkey, come together on this language site.

7.       janissary
0 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 01:46 pm

""""Şark Islahat Planı 1925 """"

thank you. I didnt know this coz my history teacher was pregnant when we came to this topic... what is the other subject? Big miedle east project??? btw where where u from handsom in turkey????????????

8.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 05:25 pm

Quoting janissary:

""""Şark Islahat Planı 1925 """"

thank you. I didnt know this coz my history teacher was pregnant when we came to this topic... what is the other subject? Big miedle east project??? btw where where u from handsom in turkey????????????


Haha..
Well..I dont think the result will be much different if your teacher was pregnant or 'in process of getting pregnant' at the time of that topic.
You would not get it anyway! lol

9.       incişka
746 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 07:10 pm


Quoting thehandsom:


Haha..
Well..I dont think the result will be much different if your teacher was pregnant or 'in process of getting pregnant' at the time of that topic.
You would not get it anyway! lol

10.       incişka
746 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 07:16 pm

Quoting janissary:

""""Şark Islahat Planı 1925 """"

thank you. I didnt know this coz my history teacher was pregnant when we came to this topic... what is the other subject? Big miedle east project??? btw where where u from handsom in turkey????????????



Do u think that EVERYTHING is written in history books? If there was such a plan, it would of course be a secret one. At least, Handsom has got references to it. And he wanted to share. Have u got references to support yourself too? I will never be sure on some historical issues cos they are presented to us in the way "some" people want. But that doesnt mean this şark ıslahat planı should be a lie. It is all matter of history now anyway... It was in 1925 We better look at present and to the future.

11.       janissary
0 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 07:43 pm

Quoting incişka:

Quoting janissary:

""""Şark Islahat Planı 1925 """"

thank you. I didnt know this coz my history teacher was pregnant when we came to this topic... what is the other subject? Big miedle east project??? btw where where u from handsom in turkey????????????



Do u think that EVERYTHING is written in history books? If there was such a plan, it would of course be a secret one. At least, Handsom has got references to it. And he wanted to share. Have u got references to support yourself too? I will never be sure on some historical issues cos they are presented to us in the way "some" people want. But that doesnt mean this şark ıslahat planı should be a lie. It is all matter of history now anyway... It was in 1925 We better look at present and to the future.



ah I see inçiska, good point I look at present and to future like you. and I see none of these. I havent seen any immigration to east of turkey from other places to change kurdish ppl. now istanbul, izmir, mersin are the most crowded kurdish cities like east of turkey. no immigration, no assimilation but there are many maps which show kurdish states. I dont take serious this man who started this topic, he is such a man talks about kurdish ppl and their rights but he cant not say where he is from is he kurdish or not?

12.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 08:04 pm

we are not talking about history of 100 years here.
We are talking about our recent history and the present time here.
Just look at the events of last 25 years, look at what we have been doing in the east..
Are we not the people said in 1980's that 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? eh?

13.       janissary
0 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 08:16 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

we are not talking about history of 100 years here.
We are talking about our recent history and the present time here.
Just look at the events of last 25 years, look at what we have been doing in the east..
Are we not the people said in 1980's that 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? eh?



yes Im looking of events of last 25 years, for you last 50 years. what changed? kurdish ppl are more crowded in their cities. even the biggest cities of turkey are most crowded kurdish cities. what happened if someone said 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? just something changed some ppl prefered terrorism, coz they used this issue for their aims and claimed same things as u did now. I know u like searching history, search from a different view, u will find enough documents about games that some contries play in this region...

14.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 08:29 pm

Quoting janissary:

Quoting thehandsom:

we are not talking about history of 100 years here.
We are talking about our recent history and the present time here.
Just look at the events of last 25 years, look at what we have been doing in the east..
Are we not the people said in 1980's that 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? eh?



yes Im looking of events of last 25 years, for you last 50 years. what changed? kurdish ppl are more crowded in their cities. even the biggest cities of turkey are most crowded kurdish cities. what happened if someone said 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? just something changed some ppl prefered terrorism, coz they used this issue for their aims and claimed same things as u did now. I know u like searching history, search from a different view, u will find enough documents about games that some contries play in this region...


What?
would you accept if someone said to you 'there is no such a thing called Turkish?'

There might be some games..I do accept that..
But you have to accept the fact that the biggest game is played in our borders!!

The problem is IN Turkey. Not in Norther Iraq or in EU or in USA.
And the biggest problem is our oppressing nationalism.

Why do you think the western cities populated heavily with the kurds? do you have any idea?
have you ever accured to you that it might be related to 'we emptied more than 4000 villages (mainly burnt) there? or we made the life hell for them in the east'?

Do you know how many turture case being recorded from that area?

Do you know anything about what happened in diyarbakir jail in 1980s?

Do you have any idea how many kurds got killed by our own army or by militias during this last 25 years?

How many rapes, how many turtures? any idea?

How many people dissapeared?

Whatever angle you want me to look, no angle will justify what we have been doing there for last 25 years.


15.       janissary
0 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 08:41 pm

what??? u mean terrorists are all right, are u defending terrorism? (Sorry moderators, I didnt mean something personal attack, just asking)

why didnt u count what terrorists did last 25 years? they burnt villages, killed children, women,,, fired houses, fired buses with innocent ppl in, killed teachers, nurses, doctors who came there for serving, prevented children to go to schools, forced kurdish ppl for helping them. bombed big cities without looking there turk, kurd, laz, english around. so turkey is guilty coz Turkey tries to defend civilians? only turkey is guilty. but Terrorists come to villages with flowers???

16.       gernas
58 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 08:45 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

Quoting thehandsom:

we are not talking about history of 100 years here.
We are talking about our recent history and the present time here.
Just look at the events of last 25 years, look at what we have been doing in the east..
Are we not the people said in 1980's that 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? eh?



yes Im looking of events of last 25 years, for you last 50 years. what changed? kurdish ppl are more crowded in their cities. even the biggest cities of turkey are most crowded kurdish cities. what happened if someone said 'there is no such a thing called kurd'? just something changed some ppl prefered terrorism, coz they used this issue for their aims and claimed same things as u did now. I know u like searching history, search from a different view, u will find enough documents about games that some contries play in this region...


What?
would you accept if someone said to you 'there is no such a thing called Turkish?'

There might be some games..I do accept that..
But you have to accept the fact that the biggest game is played in our borders!!

The problem is IN Turkey. Not in Norther Iraq or in EU or in USA.
And the biggest problem is our oppressing nationalism.

Why do you think the western cities populated heavily with the kurds? do you have any idea?
have you ever accured to you that it might be related to 'we emptied more than 4000 villages (mainly burnt) there? or we made the life hell for them in the east'?

Do you know how many turture case being recorded from that area?

Do you know anything about what happened in diyarbakir jail in 1980s?

Do you have any idea how many kurds got killed by our own army or by militias during this last 25 years?

How many rapes, how many turtures? any idea?

How many people dissapeared?

Whatever angle you want me to look, no angle will justify what we have been doing there for last 25 years.




well i dont like this + 100000 thing much but i have nothing to add nor object in this... you just put it very clearly and truly so;
+10000000000000000000000000

17.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 08:53 pm

Quoting janissary:

what??? u mean terrorists are all right, are u defending terrorism? (Sorry moderators, I didnt mean something personal attack, just asking)

why didnt u count what terrorists did last 25 years? they burnt villages, killed children, women,,, fired houses, fired buses with innocent ppl in, killed teachers, nurses, doctors who came there for serving, prevented children to go to schools, forced kurdish ppl for helping them. bombed big cities without looking there turk, kurd, laz, english around. so turkey is guilty coz Turkey tries to defend civilians? only turkey is guilty. but Terrorists come to villages with flowers???



Can you see anything BUT ANYTHING in what I wrote, says that I am supporting or defending terorism?

I am telling you what has been hapening.

How come you always come up with this bizzare idea that 'supporting terrorism' when somebody tells you the things which are more different than what you hear in news channels in Turkey?

18.       incişka
746 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 09:02 pm

Quoting janissary:


ah I see inçiska, good point I look at present and to future like you. and I see none of these. I havent seen any immigration to east of turkey from other places to change kurdish ppl. now istanbul, izmir, mersin are the most crowded kurdish cities like east of turkey. no immigration, no assimilation but there are many maps which show kurdish states. I dont take serious this man who started this topic, he is such a man talks about kurdish ppl and their rights but he cant not say where he is from is he kurdish or not?



That the immigration to the east didnt take place doesnt prove that this PLAN didnt exist. It only proves it didnt work well maybe?

19.       janissary
0 posts
 24 Apr 2008 Thu 11:34 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

what??? u mean terrorists are all right, are u defending terrorism? (Sorry moderators, I didnt mean something personal attack, just asking)

why didnt u count what terrorists did last 25 years? they burnt villages, killed children, women,,, fired houses, fired buses with innocent ppl in, killed teachers, nurses, doctors who came there for serving, prevented children to go to schools, forced kurdish ppl for helping them. bombed big cities without looking there turk, kurd, laz, english around. so turkey is guilty coz Turkey tries to defend civilians? only turkey is guilty. but Terrorists come to villages with flowers???



Can you see anything BUT ANYTHING in what I wrote, says that I am supporting or defending terorism?

I am telling you what has been hapening.

How come you always come up with this bizzare idea that 'supporting terrorism' when somebody tells you the things which are more different than what you hear in news channels in Turkey?



BECAUSE u are one sided. u only say that turkey is guilty. but I havent heard anything from you that what did terrorism cause in this region. why u pass what terrorist did??? we dont learn everything from news as you. coz we have many friends who had military duty there, we hear all these from ppl who lived these. so how come u claim u know everything about this, have u ever been there or are u one of the people, lived these??? are u living in this region now? why are you trying to provoke foreign ppl against turkey with ur one sided thoughts??? Really what is ur problem with Turkey?

you and ur friends call me racist, but when I call u sympathzer coz of your one sided thoughts, I m being warned by ur moderator friends.

20.       incişka
746 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 11:06 am

Handsom, Now I wish I hadnt replied to your topic The topic has turned into something else than its main point now :-S

21.       janissary
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 11:44 am

Quoting incişka:

Handsom, Now I wish I hadnt replied to your topic The topic has turned into something else than its main point now :-S



we already know what is the main point of this topic. They are trying to do something but cant say it openly. with his posts he tries to show he is objective, but when u look at carefully, he always gives examples from one side. and always topics about kurdish and turkey. he doesnt say anything whether he is kurdish or not, coz he tries to show himself very objective about things. if he said where he was from his posts wont take much attention. it s really interesting that he behaves as if he is foreigner and learn everything with others. it s sad that some foreign friends cant see that, I m sure someone who lived in turkey for a while, would see that most of his told u are untrue. I advice u to look at around when u come to turkey again, u will see kurdish ppl around everywhere, working, studying with others. Im sure that if u all foreign ppl believed what handsom said about turkey, u wouldnt like to come turkey.

22.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 01:12 pm

Quoting janissary:

Quoting inciska:

handsom, now i wish i hadnt replied to your topic the topic has turned into something else than its main point now :-s



we already know what is the main point of this topic. they are trying to do something but cant say it openly. with his posts he tries to show he is objective, but when u look at carefully, he always gives examples from one side. and always topics about kurdish and turkey. he doesnt say anything whether he is kurdish or not, coz he tries to show himself very objective about things. if he said where he was from his posts wont take much attention. it s really interesting that he behaves as if he is foreigner and learn everything with others. it s sad that some foreign friends cant see that, i m sure someone who lived in turkey for a while, would see that most of his told u are untrue. i advice u to look at around when u come to turkey again, u will see kurdish ppl around everywhere, working, studying with others. im sure that if u all foreign ppl believed what handsom said about turkey, u wouldnt like to come turkey.



Look now janissary, you are making it personal towards me.

Stop being paranoid and try to look at the things from wider angle. other wise you will stay as thick as a log like most common racists, with nationalism as an icing, do. (i am sorry but you are forcing me to write these things and i am hating to write like this )

I am not the person ALWAYS opening kurdish subject. This topic was a response to some of the posts mentioning 'there was never ever an asimilation or bad treatment toward kurds'.
This post, I was hoping, would silence them and let them know that THERE WAS. And it is documented.

The idea of this post was a message to those: 'with less lies we live with is better'

I quite like to think that I am objective. I am trying at least.

I am not a foreigner.

I am a Turk. I am not behaving like as if I am a foreigner either. I already mentioned in previous posts that I am trying to be quite mild here.
When I was in Turkey, I would simple brush all the racist and nationalist elements as being fascists and not worthy of talking to them. I would criticize the government/ the police, the army with really harsh words.

You keep saying that what I write here is untrue. Look at your posts here.
Did you write anything about if this document existed or not?
Did you argue anything about what was written on those documents?
The answer is NO. because you have no argument. you have nothing to say..
Just accusing people being enemy of Turkey.. that is all.

And it is myth that criticizing your country (or telling the truth about your country) will stop making people love Turkey.

However, if you keep posting these so called nationalist feelings, everybody will start to think Turkey is full of racists people, which I dont want to believe, is the case.

But in the end,
we all grew up with the poems in primary schools like:
'Atalarim gökten yere indirmisler ayyildizi
Bir buluta sarmislar ki, rengi safaktan kirmizi'
translation is ======
'my ancestors brought down the crescent and the star, from sky to earth
they wrapped them into a cloud redder than dawn'

So, I dont think it is surprising to see some of us, who grew up with these poems, getting angry with the people whom they think, they are 'the enemy' and attack them 'heroically'..

I will repeat again:
less lies we live with is better

23.       magnadea
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 01:28 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

And it is myth that criticizing your country (or telling the truth about your country) will stop making people love Turkey.

However, if you keep posting these so called nationalist feelings, everybody will start to think Turkey is full of racists people, which I dont want to believe, is the case.



This is so true. Humour, open mindedness and rationality certainly sell it to me better than blind intolerance, hate, rudeness and inability to stand criticism.

Great post thehandsome

24.       libralady
5152 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 02:46 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Quoting thehandsom:

And it is myth that criticizing your country (or telling the truth about your country) will stop making people love Turkey.

However, if you keep posting these so called nationalist feelings, everybody will start to think Turkey is full of racists people, which I dont want to believe, is the case.



This is so true. Humour, open mindedness and rationality certainly sell it to me better than blind intolerance, hate, rudeness and inability to stand criticism.

Great post thehandsome



Thank you for bring a certain "status quo" back into this thread.

I love Turkey and and the Turkish people I know and undoubtedly they have political views that I would not necessarily agree with or understand, just the same as I have friends in the UK whose politics I do not agree with and likewise they would not agree with mine. We cannot agree with everyone all of the time about everything, but that does not make one right or the other wrong. Also it does not (or should not) stop people from being friends.

Nothing that is said above would stop most people coming to Turkey, they make their own minds up and generally when you visit a country it is for reasons other than politics.

25.       janissary
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 02:50 pm

Whatever I posted is not a personal attack. I just want ppl see why u always post these? why u are one sided. about documents. I dont need any document to show you, coz I have realities, not papers. I have friends, students, neighbors. when I look at around I see that u are just trying to provoke! dont worry if this is a personal attack, moderators will warn me as usual. Im not racist or nationalist, I m just trying to show what s going on turkey and what some ppl who live abroad tell foreign ppl about turkey. in school, we learnt to love our country and work for it. if this is nastionlism, nationalism is the best thing in the world. u start this topics then u say I dont open this subjects, u are very interesting! I post a song, then u say it s stolen even our national anthem is stolen. what it changes if the music is belongs to someone else. once I thought u will say " I wrote national anthem, not mehmet akif ersoy" ) u are just trying to be oblective but u are not. u have anger in ur mind. that s why u try to offend turkish ppl with these posts.

26.       magnadea
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 02:56 pm

Of course it is good to love your country, but loving it also means you care about the WRONGS as well as the RIGHTS? Maybe you DO care, and you DO see faults, but you think that you must only present your country's good side to non-Turkish people

27.       janissary
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 03:23 pm

Quoting magnadea:

Of course it is good to love your country, but loving it also means you care about the WRONGS as well as the RIGHTS? Maybe you DO care, and you DO see faults, but you think that you must only present your country's good side to non-Turkish people




do u think those ppl care about their WRONGS??? no... of course there are wrong things in turkey, I accept this, here is not heaven! I try to show beauties of turkey and beauties of differences in turkey. But some ppl just try to show bad things, not good things. I havent heard any good thing from them, they always criticize culture, festivals, anthems, songs, state, ,Ataturk, our history,,,etc. what does it mean then? why nobody say them especially Admin or moderator, stop being offend others????

28.       magnadea
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 03:27 pm

Quoting janissary:

do u think those ppl care about their WRONGS??? no... of course there are wrong things in turkey, I accept this, here is not heaven! I try to show beauties of turkey and beauties of differences in turkey. But some ppl just try to show bad things, not good things. I havent heard any good thing from them, they always criticize culture, festivals, anthems, songs, state, ,Ataturk, our history,,,etc. what does it mean then? why nobody say them especially Admin or moderator, stop being offend others????



I have seen "those people" post positive things about culture, festivals, songs, history etc.

Maybe you can only remember the posts which criticise Turkey because those are the ones which, for some strange reason, make you so angry? I find your patriotism rather fanatical. I love my country too and could talk endlessly about its beauty, but I am also happy to discuss it's many faults!

I think you would prefer Turkish Class to be state-run

29.       azade
1606 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 03:58 pm

janis has it never crossed your mind that maybe we criticize some things about Turkey because we want them to change, to benefit all the citizens in the country? This is the way problems are dealt with. In a supposedly democratic country there shold be no need to stress this point, as it should be natural.
If you keep closing your eyes and denying the past (and present might I add), the problem will never be solved. It has been escalating for so long now, it's time to something about it. Don't you see it's tearing up the country? It is for your own good that you face up to reality and show willingness to make peace. The kurds who want to break free of Turkey are never going to put their arms down, and regular kurds are never going to have respect and acknowledge turkish rule when the wrongs that have so obviouusly been done to them are not being recognised even today.
This is something for all hardcore nationalists to chew on.

30.       janissary
0 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 04:31 pm

Quoting azade:

janis has it never crossed your mind that maybe we criticize some things about Turkey because we want them to change, to benefit all the citizens in the country? This is the way problems are dealt with. In a supposedly democratic country there shold be no need to stress this point, as it should be natural.
If you keep closing your eyes and denying the past (and present might I add), the problem will never be solved. It has been escalating for so long now, it's time to something about it. Don't you see it's tearing up the country? It is for your own good that you face up to reality and show willingness to make peace. The kurds who want to break free of Turkey are never going to put their arms down, and regular kurds are never going to have respect and acknowledge turkish rule when the wrongs that have so obviouusly been done to them are not being recognised even today.
This is something for all hardcore nationalists to chew on.




I dont think u have enough knowledge about all turkey. u just tell what u hear from ur kurdish friends. u say different in ur fisrt post then u change ur mind I say a different thing. I havent said anything wrong to kurdish ppl on this site. before criticizing me, first read what I post. u dont read anything then u blame me as being racist. I always said that kurdish ppl are one of the elements of this country, turkey has differences in it. and these differiences creates turkey beauty (turkish, kurdish, laz, etc). Im not against other nations. I just say main problem is TERRORİSM, not kurdish ppl, terrorism is the enemy of humanity not ony turkish ppl, terrorism kill kurdish ppl also. why u dont wanna understand????? if someone supports terrorism u can not talk with him or solve any problems, at first ppl must choose a peace way, without any weapon, u can not get any right with bombing cities. Al-qaide bombed tower, what they got, NOTHİNG!!! they did the worst thing for islam and muslims! there are injustice for everybody in turkey,, not only for kurdish ppl, there are in justice for me too, but nothing give anyone to kill innocent ppl. if u wanna solve problems, there is democracy and a parlimenters in Assembly. I distinguish TERRORİSM AND KURDİSH PPL, Im just against terrorism nothing else. please dont show me racist to others.

31.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 04:40 pm

Quoting janissary:

Quoting azade:

janis has it never crossed your mind that maybe we criticize some things about Turkey because we want them to change, to benefit all the citizens in the country? This is the way problems are dealt with. In a supposedly democratic country there shold be no need to stress this point, as it should be natural.
If you keep closing your eyes and denying the past (and present might I add), the problem will never be solved. It has been escalating for so long now, it's time to something about it. Don't you see it's tearing up the country? It is for your own good that you face up to reality and show willingness to make peace. The kurds who want to break free of Turkey are never going to put their arms down, and regular kurds are never going to have respect and acknowledge turkish rule when the wrongs that have so obviouusly been done to them are not being recognised even today.
This is something for all hardcore nationalists to chew on.




I dont think u have enough knowledge about all turkey. u just tell what u hear from ur kurdish friends. u say different in ur fisrt post then u change ur mind I say a different thing. I havent said anything wrong to kurdish ppl on this site. before criticizing me, first read what I post. u dont read anything then u blame me as being racist. I always said that kurdish ppl are one of the elements of this country, turkey has differences in it. and these differiences creates turkey beauty (turkish, kurdish, laz, etc). Im not against other nations. I just say main problem is TERRORİSM, not kurdish ppl, terrorism is the enemy of humanity not ony turkish ppl, terrorism kill kurdish ppl also. why u dont wanna understand????? if someone supports terrorism u can not talk with him or solve any problems, at first ppl must choose a peace way, without any weapon, u can not get any right with bombing cities. Al-qaide bombed tower, what they got, NOTHİNG!!! they did the worst thing for islam and muslims! there are injustice for everybody in turkey,, not only for kurdish ppl, there are in justice for me too, but nothing give anyone to kill innocent ppl. if u wanna solve problems, there is democracy and a parlimenters in Assembly. I distinguish TERRORİSM AND KURDİSH PPL, Im just against terrorism nothing else. please dont show me racist to others.



Do you have any idea how many times kurdish politicians were put in jail and how many years they spent there?

I dont think you have enough knowledge about the events of the country WE ARE LIVING IN.

Terrorism did not come into its existence in a night in the east of Turkey out of nothing.

Or they did not decide one night( they got bored) and said 'oh ..well..lets be terrorist then'. did they?

32.       azade
1606 posts
 25 Apr 2008 Fri 06:10 pm

janis why don't you take a stand to what I am saying and the facts which thehandsom has laid out? Instead of addressing the problem you continue in the same dreadful track of accusations.
Look kardeşim, the terrorism (very bad thing, yes we all know) we see in Turkey is highly likely a result of the politics which has been led by the government, proved by the initial post in this thread. Just take a stand already instead of accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of being supporters of terrorism.

What if the tables were turned? Say you lived in another country, any country, and the government, the people there tried to make you forget your heritage, language, etc. and did dreadful things to you if you didn't comply, would you not rebel? Would you not stand up for yourself, your rights, your people and fight those wanting to oppress you?

33.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 01:34 am

Ok handsom,im curious to know what do you think is the right way Türkiye should do to fix this problem
We already know what Jan think

He says, ''we maybe Turk,we maybe Kurd,Greek,Arab,parasian...or whatever
But we all are Turkish ''btw,Turkish in the word which describe Citizen of Türkiye,as Turkish is the name of the language too,its not as preffering one side over the other'' live in same ONE country which is Türkiye ''
That is always his main argument.

On the other side some Kurds,and many mambers here arguing that,Türkiye should give some land to the Kurd,and have some understanding in living together some how,of course on the long run say few years later if not sooner,the demands will move another step to be 1 Kurdistan...but never mind this now,its not our issue

This issue has been over discussed here,and you've always joint the other side ''not Jan's i mean'
So,as Turkish ''which again means citizen of Türkiye'' what do you think ?
You demand Türkiye to give Kurds some land also ?!

34.       janissary
0 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 01:46 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ok handsom,im curious to know what do you think is the right way Türkiye should do to fix this problem
We already know what Jan think

He says, ''we maybe Turk,we maybe Kurd,Greek,Arab,parasian...or whatever
But we all are Turkish ''btw,Turkish in the word which describe Citizen of Türkiye,as Turkish is the name of the language too,its not as preffering one side over the other'' live in same ONE country which is Türkiye ''
That is always his main argument.

On the other side some Kurds,and many mambers here arguing that,Türkiye should give some land to the Kurd,and have some understanding in living together some how,of course on the long run say few years later if not sooner,the demands will move another step to be 1 Kurdistan...but never mind this now,its not our issue

This issue has been over discussed here,and you've always joint the other side ''not Jan's i mean'
So,as Turkish ''which again means citizen of Türkiye'' what do you think ?
You demand Türkiye to give Kurds some land also ?!




+1 Some kurdish u mentioned doesnt want just understandding. today they talk about it they say we dont want manythings BUT in another place other kurdish parlimenters says we want a seperate "kurdistan"how will we know what they want exactly??? last year turkish governmet accepted to open "kurdish courses" in some cities. after a few months later all of them closed coz nobody interested to join. main problem is what some ppl want to do? As a turkish citizen, we all want only one turkey.

35.       janissary
0 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 01:53 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

Quoting azade:

janis has it never crossed your mind that maybe we criticize some things about Turkey because we want them to change, to benefit all the citizens in the country? This is the way problems are dealt with. In a supposedly democratic country there shold be no need to stress this point, as it should be natural.
If you keep closing your eyes and denying the past (and present might I add), the problem will never be solved. It has been escalating for so long now, it's time to something about it. Don't you see it's tearing up the country? It is for your own good that you face up to reality and show willingness to make peace. The kurds who want to break free of Turkey are never going to put their arms down, and regular kurds are never going to have respect and acknowledge turkish rule when the wrongs that have so obviouusly been done to them are not being recognised even today.
This is something for all hardcore nationalists to chew on.




I dont think u have enough knowledge about all turkey. u just tell what u hear from ur kurdish friends. u say different in ur fisrt post then u change ur mind I say a different thing. I havent said anything wrong to kurdish ppl on this site. before criticizing me, first read what I post. u dont read anything then u blame me as being racist. I always said that kurdish ppl are one of the elements of this country, turkey has differences in it. and these differiences creates turkey beauty (turkish, kurdish, laz, etc). Im not against other nations. I just say main problem is TERRORİSM, not kurdish ppl, terrorism is the enemy of humanity not ony turkish ppl, terrorism kill kurdish ppl also. why u dont wanna understand????? if someone supports terrorism u can not talk with him or solve any problems, at first ppl must choose a peace way, without any weapon, u can not get any right with bombing cities. Al-qaide bombed tower, what they got, NOTHİNG!!! they did the worst thing for islam and muslims! there are injustice for everybody in turkey,, not only for kurdish ppl, there are in justice for me too, but nothing give anyone to kill innocent ppl. if u wanna solve problems, there is democracy and a parlimenters in Assembly. I distinguish TERRORİSM AND KURDİSH PPL, Im just against terrorism nothing else. please dont show me racist to others.



Do you have any idea how many times kurdish politicians were put in jail and how many years they spent there?

I dont think you have enough knowledge about the events of the country WE ARE LIVING IN.

Terrorism did not come into its existence in a night in the east of Turkey out of nothing.

Or they did not decide one night( they got bored) and said 'oh ..well..lets be terrorist then'. did they?



we already know some kurdish ppl didnt want LAND in one night or a seperate kurdistan...not only them, there are some groups too, armenians also. we aware of them. before, they couldnt find enough support, now they find from europe and USA. that s why there is terrorism.

maybe we are a few on TC, but Im not only the one think like that. we are millions of Turkish Youth in turkey.

36.       catwoman
8933 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 03:21 pm

Quoting incişka:

Do u think that EVERYTHING is written in history books? If there was such a plan, it would of course be a secret one. At least, Handsom has got references to it. And he wanted to share. Have u got references to support yourself too? I will never be sure on some historical issues cos they are presented to us in the way "some" people want. But that doesnt mean this şark ıslahat planı should be a lie. It is all matter of history now anyway... It was in 1925 We better look at present and to the future.


You are such a reasonable woman, Incişka!

37.       lady in red
6947 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 04:04 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting incişka:

Do u think that EVERYTHING is written in history books? If there was such a plan, it would of course be a secret one. At least, Handsom has got references to it. And he wanted to share. Have u got references to support yourself too? I will never be sure on some historical issues cos they are presented to us in the way "some" people want. But that doesnt mean this şark ıslahat planı should be a lie. It is all matter of history now anyway... It was in 1925 We better look at present and to the future.


You are such a reasonable woman, Incişka!



Like most young, educated, Turkish WOMEN I think!!

38.       incişka
746 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 04:08 pm

awwwww thank u both catwoman and lady

39.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 05:35 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ok handsom,im curious to know what do you think is the right way Türkiye should do to fix this problem


I think, first of all, we have to accept the mistakes we have made in the past.

And then we should be talking about what needs to be done in order to achive the ultimate goal of living together peacefully.

100 years ago nationalism and asimilation were the way to keep nations alive but now, nations can only survive if you make your minorities satisfied!!
I am a bit sorry to say, but, my country got stuck into last century's way of surviving.

We have to look at how national sovereignty is being percieved by some of the citizens.

If dominant group forces its values to non-dominant groups, you are creating some 'forced citizens' and I dont think we can survive with those.

In order to survive, you have to have 'voluntary citizens' and this can be achived by respecting everybody's identity in a real uniterian nation!!

I think I explained before but nationalism in Turkey right now is a nationalism with racism as an icing on top of it. It has been hijacked by the racists. (btw. the hijacking started in 1940s , with Nihal Atsiz) It is nothing to do with nationalism from Ataturk's time.

Apart from 'ne mutlu turkum diyene', almost all our sayings, almost all our proverbs are refering to an ethnic identity, a race when we say 'turk'.

It is not turkishness, which would represent a citizen of Turkey, we are talking about here. Although I am a Turk, but I can understand why some of people might be offended by forcing them to say they are turks..(Forcing a scot or irish in the uk to call himself english will be an insult for example. But they are bound to the country by being british which is not an ethnic identity. But 'Turk' is an ethnic identity)

Anyway as a solution, first of all this oppressing nationalism should be weakened in Turkey.

People should accept that problem is inside of Turkey..Not in EU or USA.

Many things from andimiz*** to constitution should be changed.

We should talk to them.

We should let them come to the parliment.**

Well in the end, I would say that we have to create a 'JUST' turkey in a way that nobody will want to leave.

Actually..just ask kurds:
-if they are allowed to come to a place in the state with their 'kurdish identity'?
-if they are allowed to elect their own governor (vali) in a proper uniter Turkey?
-are they allowed to speak kurdish in local governments/ are they allowed to learn and teach kurdish language as an option in schools/ are they allowed to use kurdish in tvs/radios/papers? in a country that has the officila language as turkish?
-if there is an insult or anything , as kurds are they allowed to take them to court and get penalized?

when they say yes to above, we dont have kurdish problem anymore.

ps..giving a piece of land from turkey to anybody has never ever came into my mind as a solution. It is not a solution..

***(Just think of it: turks in greece, in primary schools, turkish childeren saying ' I am Greek, I am honest, I am hard working... May my existence be a gift to the Greek existence' .
why would turks should be forced to say that?
But why are we forcing Kurds to say that?
ridiculous !!)

** (Look at this list: 1971 TİP, 1980 TEP, 1991 TBKP, 1992 SP, 1993 HEP, 1993 ÖZDEP, 1993 STP, 1994 DEP, 1997 EP, 1999 DKP, 2003 HADEP..these are the parties that talked about kurdish rights and they were all closed!!
So far, by closing their parties, we gave the kurds two options only:
1- Be assimilated and become a turk
2- rebel and go to mountains.)

40.       CANLI
5084 posts
 26 Apr 2008 Sat 11:37 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting CANLI:

Ok handsom,im curious to know what do you think is the right way Türkiye should do to fix this problem



Actually..just ask kurds:
-if they are allowed to come to a place in the state with their 'kurdish identity'?
-if they are allowed to elect their own governor (vali) in a proper uniter Turkey?
-are they allowed to speak kurdish in local governments/ are they allowed to learn and teach kurdish language as an option in schools/ are they allowed to use kurdish in tvs/radios/papers? in a country that has the officila language as turkish?
-if there is an insult or anything , as kurds are they allowed to take them to court and get penalized?

when they say yes to above, we dont have kurdish problem anymore.

ps..giving a piece of land from turkey to anybody has never ever came into my mind as a solution. It is not a solution..


***(Just think of it: turks in greece, in primary schools, turkish childeren saying ' I am Greek, I am honest, I am hard working... May my existence be a gift to the Greek existence' .
why would turks should be forced to say that?
But why are we forcing Kurds to say that?
ridiculous !!)

** (Look at this list: 1971 TİP, 1980 TEP, 1991 TBKP, 1992 SP, 1993 HEP, 1993 ÖZDEP, 1993 STP, 1994 DEP, 1997 EP, 1999 DKP, 2003 HADEP..these are the parties that talked about kurdish rights and they were all closed!!
So far, by closing their parties, we gave the kurds two options only:
1- Be assimilated and become a turk
2- rebel and go to mountains.)



İ dont understand how do you compare Turk in Greece by Kurd in Türkiye?!
Greece not the Turks country,its the greeks country,but Türkiye is Kurd's country as they are Turkish citizen
Dont you consider them part of your society ?
Do you see them as same as turks in Greece or Turk is USA or whatever ?!!!

We are talking about citizens of the same country here,and in that country

İ dont understand,do you think that Kurds should have a kurdish identity not a Turkish one ?!
You are in UK as i understood,do you see British citizens have another identity apart from being british?!
The language of the country is Turkish,so how can they talk kurdish in local governments?
İ mean in UK is it acceptable that peple talk French or Arabic in local governmets?!
Or the language of the country is English,so they use it in formal levels,and who want to speak other language they can do it unformaly?!
You are talking as if they are another people,in another country inside Türkiye ?!

Well,i guess that is not acceptable in any country,that some group of people,no matter small or big,can form small country inside
But,
İf the majority of the city,or köyler are Kurds,and if they elected another Kurd as Mayor or something,of course they should be allowed to that
İts their right as citizens of the country
İf they want to learn Kurdish language as second language or third language in school,they also should be allowed,but of course beside learning their first laguage which is Turkish,the formal language of the country..

they should have their rights as any citizen of the country.

And saying...'ne mutlu turkum diyene'
İsnt that mean,happy who say im Turkish ?!
Arent they Turkish citizens ?!

İn my opinion,they should melt in the community as Turkish citizens while keeping their identity,and demand their rights as Turkish citizens also.
İf their parts won in the elections then its their right to have them as any Turkish citizen.

İts not something you or anyone give to them,they must know this,and Turk must know this also,it is their RİGHTS as Turkish citizens...
Being citizen of the country has its rights and its duties,and so they have it also..
And one of them to elect who they want,but as being Turkish citizens,and from here they can improve their stiuations in the country, build new schools,hospitals,gain more rights..ect as any part who serve the people who elected them

But speaking about Kurds identity,or using Kurds language in formal is not normal inside united country
Or else it would be fair also that Arab and Persian and Greek will come and demand to speak their languages and have their own identities as Arab,Persian,and Greeks,...ect
Then Türkiye will be a hotle that contain different people living together not a United country with 1 identity and one language as any other country


41.       MrX67
2540 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 12:41 am

if thats a freedoms and rights topic,i'm afraid who defending some ethnicty they r not honest,and thats such a big shame to make policies about ethnicities on this modern age??noone of us never can defend any privilage or superitory to any ethnicity in modern and democratical countries,but thats really very danger tool when using with bad aimed hands...

42.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 01:03 am

Quoting CANLI:



İ dont understand how do you compare Turk in Greece by Kurd in Türkiye?!

Greece not the Turks country,its the greeks country,but Türkiye is Kurd's country as they are Turkish citizen
Dont you consider them part of your society ?
Do you see them as same as turks in Greece or Turk is USA or whatever ?!!!
We are talking about citizens of the same country here,and in that country


Exactly..
We have ethnically turks living in Greece (in Bulgaria, in Iraq, in Cyprus etc). They have been living there hundreds of years. They are greeks citizens but they are Turks. And Greece is their country.
I am not talking about the Turks in USA.

Quoting CANLI:


İ dont understand,do you think that Kurds should have a kurdish identity not a Turkish one ?!


I did not say that Canli. I was trying to say that' we dont want greece to assimilate the turkish minority' for example. They call themselves Turks..Not Greeks. But they are still greek citizens..
Being a citizen is different than your ethnic identity..
Scots dont call them british for example..but so what?

Quoting CANLI:


You are in UK as i understood,do you see British citizens have another identity apart from being british?!
The language of the country is Turkish,so how can they talk kurdish in local governments?
İ mean in UK is it acceptable that peple talk French or Arabic in local governmets?!
Or the language of the country is English,so they use it in formal levels,and who want to speak other language they can do it unformaly?!


In the uk, it is allowed to speak welsh in welshistan for example. Or when you say you dont know english they will provide you a translater.

Quote:


And saying...'ne mutlu turkum diyene'
İsnt that mean,happy who say im Turkish ?!
Arent they Turkish citizens ?!


Some of our citizens dont like saying that..
Main reason for that is our dividing nationalism I am afraid (when you say 'there is no such a think called kurd' to kurdish people and then force them to say 'ne mutlu turkum diyene' is not nice and here is the result basically).
But what are you going to do if they dont want to say that? Kill them?
Shall we accept for the Turks in Greece if they are forced to say 'ne mutlu Greek diyene'?

Quote:


But speaking about Kurds identity,or using Kurds language in formal is not normal inside united country


I said they should be allowed to use their language as a second language where as official language is Turkish.
(There are many kurdish who dont speak Turkish fluently)

43.       alameda
3499 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 10:22 pm

It's an old game, Divide and Rule

Why don't we take a look at all the people who have wanted that part of Turkey that just happens to have an interest:
The Treaty of Sevres

Let's then take a look at:

Headwaters of the Tigress and Euphrates

I wonder what's going on here? It looks to me like a lot of people are being duped.

If you are a citizen of Turkey, you are a Turk and should support and work with the existing system. If you don't like it, work to change it within the system. To do otherwise is to be a traitor. Anyway, that's what it looks like to me.

I think the problem is what it has always been, control of vital resources and outside manipulation for the control of those resources.

Again:

Divide and Rule

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