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What is wrong with Muslims?
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190.       catwoman
8933 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 10:18 pm

Quoting peacetrain:


1.These are my views and they obviously differ to yours, so we better recognise that now and leave it at that. As with other threads here, this could run and run in circles.

2.And of course that makes all Muslims liers. Lovely.


1. I think this is very important in terms of what kind of solutions the muslim community needs to come up with. Of course, I have no interest in running in circles

2. When did I say that?

191.       bydand
751 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 10:38 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting bydand:

peacetrain it is obvious from the title of this thread and her opening diatribe where catwoman is coming from.Even her fellow admin appeared surprised on page 5. Is this the type of thread an admin should introduce in a forum such as this?


Deep philosophical questions canim. Not your cup of tea.



Fair enough catwoman I may be an old man and not had the education some of you young people have. Times were different when I was young. But I still stand by what I said in the above post.

192.       alameda
3499 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 01:35 am

Quoting peacetrain:

Yes I say 'so-called Muslim' because I believe the moment they planned and did what they did they ceased to become Muslim. I've no doubt they thought they were Muslims, I'm not disputing that. My own opinion though is that they are not and they damage the very faith they commit atrocities in the name of. And of course there are those non muslims who will never ever choose to believe that the terrorists are not true Muslims because that wouldn't fit in with their own agendas.



Peacetrain, I don't think you or anyone can say they were not Muslims. If they professed the Tevhit “La illaha ill Allah, Muhammadur Rasul Allah” (said and believed in the unity of Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet), they were. If they were, they were bad Muslims. They were ignorant and exploited Muslims.

What we do know is that what they did was contrary to Islamic teaching of compassion and respect for all of Allah's creation.

193.       catwoman
8933 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 03:29 am

Quoting alameda:

Peacetrain, I don't think you or anyone can say they were not Muslims. If they professed the Tevhit “La illaha ill Allah, Muhammadur Rasul Allah” (said and believed in the unity of Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet), they were. If they were, they were bad Muslims. They were ignorant and exploited Muslims.


+1

(Do you realize that we agreed second time in just a week?! )

Quoting alameda:

What we do know is that what they did was contrary to Islamic teaching of compassion and respect for all of Allah's creation.


This is again only your own choice of interpretation. There are some interpretations of Islam that profess certain crimes to be legitimate.

194.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 03:20 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting peacetrain:

Yes I say 'so-called Muslim' because I believe the moment they planned and did what they did they ceased to become Muslim. I've no doubt they thought they were Muslims, I'm not disputing that. My own opinion though is that they are not and they damage the very faith they commit atrocities in the name of. And of course there are those non muslims who will never ever choose to believe that the terrorists are not true Muslims because that wouldn't fit in with their own agendas.



Peacetrain, I don't think you or anyone can say they were not Muslims. If they professed the Tevhit “La illaha ill Allah, Muhammadur Rasul Allah” (said and believed in the unity of Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet), they were. If they were, they were bad Muslims. They were ignorant and exploited Muslims.

What we do know is that what they did was contrary to Islamic teaching of compassion and respect for all of Allah's creation.



Seems I don't choose my words carefully enough . OK in my opinion people who commit atrocities in the name of Islam are BAD Muslims.

I read somewhere that the 7/7 bombers had actually banned from the Mosque in Leeds, prior to their actions. The Guardian also printed an article on 14 Feb 2006 reporting that Ali Hamid was being investigated by the West Yorkshire Police for the alleged comments he made. I can't yet find an article that follows this up to find out what the outcome was.

I've also read about the way the incident reported in the Times and it takes me back to the issue of how Islam is representred in the press in order to make it newsworthy. Journalists will often have an agenda before reporting on something and they often only "quote" comments that are going to sell newspapers and/or cement their preformed ideas. I think I would prefer to read what's actually been left out or watch documentaries made from what's been left on the cutting room floor.

195.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 04:35 pm

To give a balance to the style of reporting as shown in the Times article posted by Catwoman, I give this article from the Guardian/Observer and written by a female Muslim Journalist, Urmee Khan. She was also 'under cover' of sorts but her coverage is completely different and her reason for visiting the community in Leeds, much more positive and well intentioned.

Please be clear . . . I am not defending terrorism, I have already stated my disgust. My issue is about reporting styles and how the media is often not interested in what good intentions the majority of Muslims have; not interested in showing Muslims as decent human beings.

Catwoman you can shout from the rafters as loudly as you wish about Muslims not denouncing acts of atrocity or not doing enough to integrate. I don't think what you say is entirely correct, the issue is far more complicated and what is more, I think you know that. We can all find something on the net to support what we want to say.

Here is the article, it is very long because it is more of a journal, I've provided some excerpts too:

Young, British and Muslim: one woman's journey to the home of the 7/7 bombers. June 18, 2006

I'd like to quote the end of the article first:

'At the end of my month in Beeston, I come to some conclusions about being a Muslim in a place that entered the public consciousness for all the wrong reasons, like Dunblane or Lockerbie. Famous because it had some link to tragic events.

This impoverished community has warmth, hospitality and a decency that is never reported. I went to Beeston looking for signs of trauma. They are there, of course - but I came to see it as a neighbourhood, not as the vehicle for events that happened 200 miles to the south.
...
As I painted henna tattoos at the mela - including such names as Courtney and Connor - I had to remind myself that this park was the place where Tanweer had played cricket, a place that had sent a shudder through me on my first visit. Beeston is in fact much bigger than those four individuals, and so is Islam.

This journey has been hard for a British Muslim from the edge of London. The events of 7 July left me sick in the stomach, shocked and angry at the ideological rubbish which had allowed four so-called Muslim men to unleash carnage in the name of religion. Our religion.

In Beeston I found kind, decent people: young mums, bored kids, community cohesion, an interfaith set-up which was the pride of northern England. I came looking for mullahs bent on destruction. All I found was mothers. I came looking for answers to explain 7/7 and ended up realising that, just as in every community, there are complexities here that cannot be explained simply. Yes, some people are angry. But most are just trying to get on with their lives.

The first anniversary of the July bombings falls in just over a fortnight's time, and hard, blank faces will greet the inevitable new media intrusions. We'll get yet more descriptions of a 'closed community', full of danger and an 'it could happen again' mentality. Such descriptions, however, would be wrong.'


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/jun/18/july7.uk

Excerpts

Next month is the anniversary of the attacks on London. Three of the terrorists came from Leeds, two from the suburb of Beeston. Here, writer Urmee Khan reveals her remarkable experience living with the community which was home to the men who killed in the name of religion.

-------
To get under the skin of a community is hard. When it is scarred as badly as Beeston - home to two of the 7 July terrorists, with a third from nearby - it becomes almost impossible. This area of Leeds, in the LS11 postcode with about 5,000 people, has had the world's press gawp and shudder at the place which 'produced the monsters' that killed 52 people and injured hundreds more.

For months afterwards, TV cameras zoomed in on the terrace houses as correspondents announced: 'I'm standing in front of where the youngest suicide bomber lived. As you can see this is an area of deprivation and...' Their grave tones cemented an image of an area full of angry people, people who would give succour to terrorists. Despite such intensive exposure there has never been a real insight into a place often accused of being 'closed'. We have never heard the voices and aspirations of people such as Imran.
----------

Premises that used to house the area's only dedicated youth club were boarded up after it was reported that the bombers used to hang out there.
-----

Imran is about 6ft and quite heavy-looking. He is unshaven and has a big square diamond stud in his ear. He looks much older than his 28 years. 'I was on heroin and I used to deal but I've been clean for the past five years,' he says. 'My mates helped me. I was taken to another mosque, and while the others prayed my teeth were clattering as I went cold [turkey].'

The boys who helped him get off the drug included 'Kaka [baby] Shehzad Tanweer. The Aldgate bomber was a good friend of mine,' Imran says.

He goes a bit quiet and says: 'Kasme [promise] you're not secret service?' I promise and he continues: 'He wasn't a bad lad, you know.' Both Tanweer and Khan were part of the 'Mullah Crew' who helped local boys to get off drugs and embrace Islam again.

Imran looks in his rear-view mirror. 'These gora [white people] exaggerate stuff and we're all suddenly baddies.' It's been especially bad for his mother. He looks sad. 'She's frazzled. She just can't believe it. Those fucking journalists have made it hard to live around here.'
-------

I realise that many of the young men here are no more religiously observant than an equivalent group of white men.
---------

I came here expecting lots of angry young men. When the press came here last July, we were all told about 'disillusioned, young thugs'. And to a certain extent, there were lads milling about looking, well, pretty disillusioned. A large number get sucked into the boy racer scene, or use hard drugs. But anger was not something I experienced: there was not one Free Palestine flag in sight.

Real life is far more neutral
----------

The Asha Centre sits on Stratford Street, about three doors from the vaguely marked Stratford Street mosque. The only thing distinguishing it from a similar terrace house nearby is a bright yellow bit of canvas pinned above the door which says: 'Asha Centre 20 Years'.

This street was a particular focus of newspaper attention following 7/7. The mosque was reported to be radical . But both the Stratford Street and Hardy Street mosques had banned the bombers from worshipping, and worked closely with the police.
---------

It is the week of the Forest Gate raid, where two Muslim men are detained as police storm a house in east London. There are lurid tales in the papers that a chemical attack has been foiled. One of the brothers is shot in the shoulder.

I ask people in Beeston what they think as the headlines again use imagery of Muslim people as an enemy within, terrorists. 'Oh the stuff going on in east London, it's happening again,' one woman says. 'Obviously they got it wrong, like they got it wrong in Iraq, like they killed that boy in London, I don't trust these people - MFI, FBI, IE, EF whatever their funny organisations are. They need to work to reassure the Muslim communities they are not unfairly under fire.'

Another woman says: 'They have so much dodgy information, but they have to act on it to protect us. Maybe it's the price we have to pay for living in these times.' The first woman looked unconvinced, bit into her sandwich and said: 'We'll see'. These debates are happening in kitchens all over the country, including here. The men were later released without charge. There was no chemical plot.
---------

On Saturday, England play Jamaica in a friendly ahead of the World Cup finals. In Beeston, England flags flutter sporadically on the streets. The TVs in most houses are tuned into the match. There's suddenly a round of cheers. England have scored again and a young Asian man shouts out of the window to a young woman in a sari. 'Meena, you've got to come and see this, Crouchie's stupid dance - a right goal fest!'
---------

I am invited to a public meeting at the Al Hikmah Centre in Batley, about seven miles away. Organised by the Crown Prosecution Service, this 'listening, reassurance and information seminar' is called Engaging the Muslim Community. It is an opportunity for Muslims from all over Yorkshire to listen to CPS officials including its head of counter-terrorism.

There are about 70 people there, mostly elderly religious men. Some of the talk on race hate legislation and confidence in the criminal justice system feels like a law lecture. But interesting questions arise afterward such as: 'Why does Abu Hamza get put away when Nick Griffin [of the BNP] is not prosecuted?' The older men make long speeches about civil liberties, Iraq and Ireland.
-------------

For the Reverend Bob Shaw, of the Holy Spirit Church in Beeston, the changing face of the area is an advantage as well as part of its problem. 'There are a fair number of refugees and asylum seekers from all over. I don't have a big congregation, but in it I have people from Cameroon, Lebanon, south India, Ghana, Nigeria, Congo, South Africa and Malawi, and we're just a small congregation.

'The people here have really pulled together. That's what this community is all about. It is the most important thing, and it has saved us.'
----------

I admit I was surprised to see little Muslim girls running around with their faces sporting a red and white St George's flag, as they eat pakoras [an Indian dish] and bright blue ice lollies. It was everything a fair should be.

During the afternoon, the boys disappear to watch the football, and I remember the pride with which a friend of Imran's had told me: 'We've bought air horns for the England games!'
---------

This community is human, but sorry to say people aren't interested in reading about the normality of a community . . . IT DOESN'T SELL NEWSPAPERS!!!!! And that's only one reason









196.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 05:22 pm

BBC news has broadcast that Young Muslims are to be taught "Citizenship" in Mosques. I found this too:

"Citizenship class for young Muslims

Young Muslims will be taught citizenship in mosque schools as part of a bid to prevent them being turned into extremists, the Government said.

Trials of the new lessons will begin in several cities at the start of the new term in September, said Communities Secretary Hazel Blears.

The initiative - designed to show youngsters there is no conflict between their religion and being British - is part of a package of measures due to be published.

It also includes a new independent board of academic and theological experts and a group of community leaders to advise on local responses to tackling extremism.

"We have made significant progress working with communities to build an alliance against violent extremists," Ms Blears said."

Taken from http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2932231.html?menu=news.story

Perhaps the media need "citizenship" classes too. Perhaps initiatives like this will only work if journalists report more responsibly. (I'm not talking about reporting atrocities btw).

197.       catwoman
8933 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 05:25 pm

Quoting peacetrain:

To give a balance to the style of reporting as shown in the Times article posted by Catwoman, I give this article from the Guardian/Observer and written by a female Muslim Journalist, Urmee Khan. She was also 'under cover' of sorts but her coverage is completely different and her reason for visiting the community in Leeds, much more positive and well intentioned.


You are adding your own judgment here to influence how this article is to be seen by the readers. That is not honest and objective.
Secondly, how do you know that this article is actually 'balancing' the other article? Based on what? Based on the fact that is says things you like?

Quoting peacetrain:

Please be clear . . . I am not defending terrorism, I have already stated my disgust. My issue is about reporting styles and how the media is often not interested in what good intentions the majority of Muslims have; not interested in showing Muslims as decent human beings.


Well... the problem is that this entire conversation is twisted. Hatred, misogyny, human rights violations in the name of Islam are defended on the grounds that criticizing them would be 'racist' or 'islamophobic'. Political, radical islamic movements, that brainwash people and intimidate people into their own version of Islam and jihad are apologeticly rationalized as "it's their culture", "let's just leave them alone", "let's not criticize"... and then the only outlet of the growing feeling like there's something wrong with Islam is to villify them as a group in some vague way.

Quoting peacetrain:

Catwoman you can shout from the rafters as loudly as you wish about Muslims not denouncing acts of atrocity or not doing enough to integrate. I don't think what you say is entirely correct, the issue is far more complicated and what is more, I think you know that. We can all find something on the net to support what we want to say.


I don't shout, dear. I give reasons to what I think is true and I support it with information. It's not my own whim to say these things, they are simply factual. And of course, your response to these things is simply dismissal by reason of "we can all find something to support what we want to say". What if the things I say do have some value? By the same token, your views and "supporting articles" are equally irrelevant. You will either take my point of view seriously, or yours will be dismissed in exactly the same way as you dismiss mine.

Quoting peacetrain:

This community is human, but sorry to say people aren't interested in reading about the normality of a community . . . IT DOESN'T SELL NEWSPAPERS!!!!! And that's only one reason


First of all, you are simplifying the truth for your own purposes. Yes, SOME newspapers do only certain kinds of stories just so that they sell, but dismissing the entire point that is actually reported also by serious newspapers as false and purely sensational is just insane.

P.S. I'm not interested in going in circles.

198.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 10:37 pm

Quote:

Quote:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting peacetrain:

To give a balance to the style of reporting as shown in the Times article posted by Catwoman, I give this article from the Guardian/Observer and written by a female Muslim Journalist, Urmee Khan. She was also 'under cover' of sorts but her coverage is completely different and her reason for visiting the community in Leeds, much more positive and well intentioned.


You are adding your own judgment here to influence how this article is to be seen by the readers. That is not honest and objective.


I can assure you I am an honest person. OK I forgot those 3 little words 'in my opinion'.

And what is objective about labelling me dishonest? What is objective about constantly raking up the negative face of Islam? On second thoughts, don't bother to answer that because I already know your answer.

Quoting Cat Woman:


Secondly, how do you know that this article is actually 'balancing' the other article? Based on what? Based on the fact that is says things you like?



Simple answer? Yes. Isn't that what we do here? Find articles we agree with, articles that support our point of view?

Perhaps both articles posted in the same thread with an offer for people to read and discuss the contents. might have produced a less fiery thread.

Quoting peacetrain:

Please be clear . . . I am not defending terrorism, I have already stated my disgust. My issue is about reporting styles and how the media is often not interested in what good intentions the majority of Muslims have; not interested in showing Muslims as decent human beings.


Well... the problem is that this entire conversation is twisted. Hatred, misogyny, human rights violations in the name of Islam are defended on the grounds that criticizing them would be 'racist' or 'islamophobic'. Political, radical islamic movements, that brainwash people and intimidate people into their own version of Islam and jihad are apologeticly rationalized as 'it's their culture', 'let's just leave them alone', 'let's not criticize'... and then the only outlet of the growing feeling like there's something wrong with Islam is to villify them as a group in some vague way.



Why am I not surprised by this answer either? You use the word 'hatred' often and so readily. I've never called anyone a racist or islamophobic. And I've never referred to radicals or made excuses for them in the manner you state. btw please will you provide the references to the sources where you learned the above , I would seriously like to read about it. I don't agree with it and would like to know the facts about it.

Quoting peacetrain:

Catwoman you can shout from the rafters as loudly as you wish about Muslims not denouncing acts of atrocity or not doing enough to integrate. I don't think what you say is entirely correct, the issue is far more complicated and what is more, I think you know that. We can all find something on the net to support what we want to say.


I don't shout, dear. I give reasons to what I think is true and I support it with information. It's not my own whim to say these things, they are simply factual. And of course, your response to these things is simply dismissal by reason of 'we can all find something to support what we want to say'. What if the things I say do have some value? By the same token, your views and 'supporting articles' are equally irrelevant. You will either take my point of view seriously, or yours will be dismissed in exactly the same way as you dismiss mine.



I think you do 'shout', dear, always the same criticism presented in much the same way. I have never said what you say doesn't have SOME value. Yes there may be facts there but you also know what semantic games the media play and often there is a more balanced story left on a cutting room floor or in an editorial department. In my opinion, such journalism is putting out subliminal anti Islam messages, not solely anti radical/terrorist Islam messages.

Quoting catwoman:


First of all, you are simplifying the truth for your own purposes.


I believe this seems to be a standard reply in debate.

Quoting catwoman:


Yes, SOME newspapers do only certain kinds of stories just so that they sell, but dismissing the entire point that is actually reported also by serious newspapers as false and purely sensational is just insane.



Well I knew that you would use the fact that The Times is a very reputable newspaper, to bolster your argument. Having a good reputation doesn't make quoting from such a source a sure fire bet that people will swallow your message hook, line and sinker. So, reputable news papers never play semantic games in order to sensationalise? The article I detailed is also taken from a reputable news source, Guardian/Observer.

btw 1 have you got any opinion about the content of the very long article I posted or are you only interested in my personal statements ?

btw 2 knife crime is a bigger story than terrorism over here at the moment.


btw 3 I also posted information on initiatives to prevent Islamic Radicals from influences Islamic youths .

Almost 200 posts now so that's it for me. Until the next time

199.       alameda
3499 posts
 18 Jul 2008 Fri 10:42 pm

Quoting peacetrain:

This community is human, but sorry to say people aren't interested in reading about the normality of a community . . . IT DOESN'T SELL NEWSPAPERS!!!!! And that's only one reason



Excellent link and a refreshing perspective peacetrain, thank you very much.

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