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Islam in Turkey is make-believe
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50.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 02:09 am

So mltm, let´s see.. you asked for sources, you were given sources...now you take exception to the sources?  Last time I checked you had not been made and administrator.  You don´t get to make up the rules as you go. 

You seem to have a personal issue here with several members of this site and frankly you are looking a bit fanatical lately.  You can´t seem to make up your mind as to what you want!

51.       mltm
3690 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 02:20 am

 

Quoting girleegirl

So mltm, let´s see.. you asked for sources, you were given sources...now you take exception to the sources?  Last time I checked you had not been made and administrator.  You don´t get to make up the rules as you go. 

You seem to have a personal issue here with several members of this site and frankly you are looking a bit fanatical lately.  You can´t seem to make up your mind as to what you want!

 

 We are still waiting for the vineyard´s source.

 

Yes, lately I look much more fanatic than I ever used to be. It becomes inevitable when the owners of a turkish language and culture site are not Turk or/and enough turkish patriotic (I´m sorry if it offends but that is the truth). Otherwise we would see more sensitivity about Ataturk and PKK issue.

52.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 02:26 am

 

Quoting mltm

 We are still waiting for the vineyard´s source.

 

Yes, lately I look much more fanatic than I ever used to be. It becomes inevitable when the owners of a turkish language and culture site are not Turk or/and enough turkish patriotic (I´m sorry if it offends but that is the truth). Otherwise we would see more sensitivity about Ataturk and PKK issue.

 

 Therein lies the issue Meltem.  It´s not your site!  It is admin´s and cats and all of the users...not just the Turks...not just the people who want translations....ALL of us!   

53.       lady in red
6947 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 02:39 am

 

Quoting mltm

 We are still waiting for the vineyard´s source.

 

 

 

What´s wrong with thehandsom´s source?  A source by any other name is still a source.

54.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 02:45 am

I presume these are Admin´s words on the "About TC" page:

 

"

What is Turkish Language Class?

This web site is built for teaching Turkish to my love. The idea of building this web site actually came out of the lack of online resources about Turkish. We were searching the Internet to find some useful resources that could be helpful but we couldn´t find any good, complete and free web site. We thought that we can do better and share it with the people who have the same problem. It is becoming the proof that love can move mountains.

This site started simple, but it is slowly improving to eventually become an interactive environment for learning the Turkish language. The goal is to have a web site where users study lessons, improve their Turkish language skills, interact with the web site and with each other, get to know people with the same interests, and eventually learn some Turkish while having some fun at the same time. Everything on this site is free, and you can get your free username and password to access the members-only parts of the site. "

 

Having read the new rule I don´t believe it is censoring anyone in the true sense of the word.

What it does is set a boundary in order to contain the issue so that it doesn´t take over the site.  This is important because I think over exposure of such issues is not in the spirit of the original intention of the site.  Perhaps Admin has added the PKK rule for 2 reasons: a) to guide members   b) to attempt to bring some uniformity to moderation and leave less to individual moderation decisions.   It´s possible that the rule could have been more broadly formulated to mention political issues pertaining to Turkey rather than one particular issue.  I´m not sure.

 

I would say Admin. has chosen the middle ground in order to appease both sides and it would be helpful if we could all recognise the difficult job he has, trying to balance the wishes of a broad spectrum of members.  I don´t think censorship is the real intention, only balance of subject matter.

 

55.       vineyards
1954 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 02:50 am

Here is a quick translation of the addresses and statements "allegedly" made by Ataturk.

Dear Meltem, you must have been too lazy to translate them yourself. This is your proof. What do you see in these statements? I think we wouldn´t expect Ataturk to so openly denounce religion. That is why I  indicated in my message that the statement I quoted was an alleged one. As a matter of fact probably all of the messages quoted from your source are equally "alleged" in nature.

 

Since I have in excess of 3000 or so books in my library, I cannot instantly find the book where I quoted Ataturk´s words. I remember the title of the book as something like : "Ataturk´s Love Affairs." As far as I remember (read this some 5 years ago) he was making this statement to his French girl friend in a complaining tone.

 

"..then I ordered The Qoran to be translated; and it has been translated into Turkish for the first time. I also issued orders for the translation of a book on Mohammad´s life.. (Essential Ideas of Ataturk, Fethi Naci page 55)

"The sacred altars of mosques are the ultimate and the most efficient sources for  the spiritual and ethical nourishment of society. Addressing people in a way they can comprehend, appealing both the brain and the spirit will prop up the mortal existence of the Muslims, cleanse their brains and fortify their belief and inspire courage in their hearts."

"God is one and it is highly praised. May the peace and love of God be unto you. Our beloved master (Mohammad) was assigned as a messenger to tell people of the truth. The fundamentals of this are known to all of us and are plainly laid out in sacred Qoran. Our religion which has inspired people is the last one. It is the most perfect religion. Because our religion is in full comformity with reason and truth. (Ataturk´s Addresses c.2 page 93).

"Our religion is the most reasonable and most natural one. That is why, it is the last religion. For a religion to be natural it needs to comply with reason, technics, science and logic. Our religion complies with all these. In the social order of Islam no class is allowed privilege above others. Those who take such a privilege for granted act in an improper way. We don´t have an ecclesiastical class; we are all equal and we are bound to learn the rules of our religion in equality. (Ataturk´s Addresses and Statements."

"Our enemies accuse us of being under the influence of religion alluding that the recession and collapse we underwent is related to this fact. This is of course a mistake. Our religion has never required that women should fall behind men. What God orders is for muslim women and men to have learn about their religion together. Both women and men must seek this education, going wherever  knowledge is in order to  get this education. Anyone studying Islam and Turkish history will find out there are actually no restriction about those aspects of life which we believe are bound by thousands of rules. In Turkish society, those women who pursued their educations did never fall behind men in anyway, arguably they even surpassed them. (Atatürk´s Addresses and Statements page 2)

"Turkish people need to be more religious, I mean religious in the purest sense. I believe in religion just as I believe in truth. It contains nothing that objects to consciousness and development. Nevertheless, there is another religion in existence in this Asiatic community which is even more complicated and composed merely of superstition. These ignorant and helpless people will be illuminated when the time comes. If they cannot get near the light it means they have doomed themselves to destruction. We will save them (Ataturk and Religious Education, Religious Affairs Administration Publications page 32)

56.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 03:06 am

 

Quoting peacetrain

I presume these are Admin´s words on the "About TC" page:

 

 

Why do you keep pasting rules?  We all know where they are found.  

 

Censorship is censorship no matter how you try to define it.  The issue here is that people are being told what they can and cannot discuss...THAT is censorship! 

 

And it is now being broadened by one mod (who has clearly admitted her rationale in her last post) to members being told that they must post sources and they cannot comment on articles that they paste here............which is quite confusing as other mods clearly disagree with this sentiment and are telling people to always comment (and I could not agree more....who cares about articles being cut and pasted ad nausem without comment by the poster!)

 

It has been made clear by mltm´s last post what her aim is.  She wants to silence people who are in disagreement with her fanatical views.   That equals censorship!

 

57.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 03:23 am

 

Quoting girleegirl

Quoting peacetrain

I presume these are Admin´s words on the "About TC" page:

 

 

Why do you keep pasting rules?  We all know where they are found.  

 

Censorship is censorship no matter how you try to define it.  The issue here is that people are being told what they can and cannot discuss...THAT is censorship! 

 

And it is now being broadened by one mod (who has clearly admitted her rationale in her last post) to members being told that they must post sources and they cannot comment on articles that they paste here............which is quite confusing as other mods clearly disagree with this sentiment and are telling people to always comment (and I could not agree more....who cares about articles being cut and pasted ad nausem without comment by the poster!)

 

It has been made clear by mltm´s last post what her aim is.  She wants to silence people who are in disagreement with her fanatical views.   That equals censorship!

 

 What I quoted wasn´t a rule.  I referred to the new rule, but didn´t paste it  and I don´t "keep" pasting rules.  , Hmmm . . . is this an attempt to censor me? .      Please don´t let my posts agitate you gg and congratulations on being able to navigate around the site .

 

My post was about Admin adding the new rule and only that. I don´t believe there was anything antagonistic in my post, yet you seem antagonised. 

 

If you have a problem with a Moderator/member, follow the rule regarding appropriate action (I can paste the rule here if you like or even provide you with your favourite . . . a link!   ).

 

 

Iyi geçeler {#lang_emotions_wink}

58.       CANLI
5084 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 05:03 am

 

Quoting vineyards

I wish all the religions went down the sink

Allegedly quoted from K. Atatürk

 

  İm also still waiting for your supported link vineyards

You know the rules of the forums very well,needless to remind you,and although handsom has posted a link,but i dont think Wiki is the trusted documental site that we can relay and depend on in such quotation.

59.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 05:28 am

 

Quoting peacetrain

 What I quoted wasn´t a rule.  I referred to the new rule, but didn´t paste it  and I don´t "keep" pasting rules.  , Hmmm . . . is this an attempt to censor me? .      Please don´t let my posts agitate you gg and congratulations on being able to navigate around the site .

 

My post was about Admin adding the new rule and only that. I don´t believe there was anything antagonistic in my post, yet you seem antagonised. 

 

If you have a problem with a Moderator/member, follow the rule regarding appropriate action (I can paste the rule here if you like or even provide you with your favourite . . . a link!   ).

 

 

Iyi geçeler {#lang_emotions_wink}

 

 I stand corrected...what I should have said is why do you keep quoting admin.   I found it amusing....you take it as accusatory....whatever.   

Either way, don´t you keep worrying your teeny little brain over me.  You don´t have anything to offer that could possibly agitate me.  My concerns are regarding censorship....not you. 

And since you seem to have such issues with me, you may want to start to follow your own advice.

60.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 24 Sep 2008 Wed 05:34 am

 

Quoting CANLI

 İm also still waiting for your supported link vineyards

You know the rules of the forums very well,needless to remind you,and although handsom has posted a link,but i dont think Wiki is the trusted documental site that we can relay and depend on in such quotation.

 

 Millions of people find wiki to be a trusted source of information and now you are saying it´s not good enough?  Or just not good enough in this situation?  I´m confused.  Should all wiki references also be banned from the site?  

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