Admin himself started that thread and now it´s gone. Why? I spent some time to contribute to that thread and I don´t think there was anything wrong with my posts.

Admin,

I think you owe us an explaination (at least). Why delete the thread you started yourself? Why not just lock it?

Yours awaitingly...

See also the captions to the photos in question.  The captions have rendered the photos meaningless now (for good or bad intentions) and either way the original photo was not taken with the intention of mockery (if you look at the rest of the work by that photographer and read his biography, this is clear). 

So,  those photos are obsolete . . . serve no purpose . . . don´t make any statement (any longer).  It would make sense for the poster to remove them and move on from this incident.

Just my opinion and only words I have to offer to the debate (now disappeared )

cowardness!

and spritzer is deleted!

I think spritzer went too far. However I still think those jokes were in poor taste. If a man had used those women as the butt of a joke I am sure the feminists on here would be jumping up and down by now.

Who provoked?

If Lis deleted the photos that would mean she let a very angry person who started a ridiculous argument win. It´s already been shown the photos do not violate TC rules. Some might find them amusing, others quite contrary - but whether or not you like somebody´s personal photo is subjective. Besides, let´s not forget why and when these photos were uploaded. If I´m not mistaken it was after one of our debates on burkas. The pro-burka front was more than convinced it´s actually an outfit that lets women feel free. Why the sudden change of mind?

Wow! What a democratic site! You are crying every time "freedom of speech." But you can´t stand one negative opinion. I am sure you will say she insulted you but let me say you insulted her. Now I will go on translating to help people, but I have no respect for admins and their supporters.

I absolutely agree with you..

It was a ridiculous and childish argument in the first place.

This was not a debate about burkas or tc rules..

Someone killed freedom of speech here. You are getting angry when Muslims protest the Mohammed cartoons. You say it is freedom of speech. Well let me say you are not different from those fanatics. Now return the membership of spritzer and apologize.

Asking people not to draw, not to write, not to speak, not to talk is fascism. It does not matter where it comes from..

It can come from an angry crowd in pakistan with the demand ´not to publish cartoons´, it can come from an angry person who needs cold shower with the demand ´take down your burka picture´. They both are the same fascism..

Everybody needs to learn how to be tolerant and have some sense of humour.. !!!!

There never was a freedom of speech! What are you talking about?

 I think everybody has a right to write what he/she thinks. And everybody has a right also not to agree. Not agreeing isn´t a crime but deleting a person who doesn´t agree is a crime against freedom of speech. Somebody must correct this mistake. Anyone can ask you for anything. It is not a crime unless they use power. Administration used power here.

Exactly..

She and some others ridiculously tried to lynch somebody´s right to put up a picture into her profile here.. Freedom of speech doe not mean you can "ban something because you dont agree with it"..

And that person took her anger into level of insult.. That is all..

If I start deleting your posts you will get angry too.

This is an old trick. You make someone angry, then apply your admin powers by deleting posts as per wish, the user gets more angry and reaches out for the last resort - swearing and insulting. And then you can easily get rid of the unwanted user.

Lets not talk about freedom and rights - you can play this in your own back garden.

 They provoked her and made her insult. They mocked her, deleted her messages. This is a provocation. But you know what the big provocation is? It is "mocking those poor women who want to get education". This was the biggest provocation. Spritzer witnessed how those poor girls and women live. She was in Afghanistan for a time. And she witnessed very bad things towards women. She helped them. This made her very sensible on that matter. She is an humanist. And I am proud of having such a friend. She doesn´t sit and talk like us but she goes and helps people. She defended her ideas but you provoked her. Administration wasn´t neutral on this matter. They must correct their mistakes.They are as guilty as spritzer. They must resign or give spritzer her membership back.

Your posts are still here, so obviously it is not negative opinions that is deleted.

As for the insults, you don´t see the deleted messages so you don´t know the full extent of the things said and done after multiple warnings.

We have clear rules that personal insults are not allowed on this site and can result in account deletion. If someone continues to make personal attacks/insults against other members after being warned, we consider the option of account deletion. Otherwise this forum would be like a nuthouse that many of the complainers here would find not worth visiting. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech, just simple rules to keep order.

 Some admins provoked her. I am a witness. They mocked her and deleted some of her posts. They are as guilty as spritzer. They were never neutral on this subject.

 But you allow provocation i guess.

That is true, there was never full freedom of speech here and we never claimed there is. Racism is not allowed, personal insults are not allowed, swearing is not allowed etc. For some reason this makes some people uncomfortable.

One thing to keep in mind while waging such criticism is that TC is a private community site kept up mostly by volunteer efforts. It is not the job of the admins/mods here to untangle the mess created by nonsense, flammatory messages. We have a set of simple rules, not always followed perfectly, but used to keep the site decent while not putting lots of burden on the people maintaining this site.

I am not supporting deleting people here at all.. and I am not going to comment about the tricks..

But, the idea of ´ah this picture is an insult to this and that´ was as childish and anti everything  I stand for.. 

It is ok to put up your voice..it is ok to tell your ideas.. That is fine.. No problem at all.. 

But

- Is the picture offensive? NO

- Did you say it was? YES -you are entitled your opinion-

- Does that person HAS RIGHT TO KEEP THAT PICTURE -YES

- Then what? 

This is same as people in certain areas of istanbul coming and saying ´we dont like women wearing skirts ..so it should be banned´. Same as people going about  ´I dont like those cartoons. they should be banned´.. 

And the very same  people ´now´ realising the importance of freedom of speech..When trying to force people ´ah that picture  is offensive . take it down´ it was all right ..

can you see how fake it is to hear freedom of speech from them?

Well, the problem didn´t start with deleted messages or threads. You should have some background of the issue before making judging statements about it.

thehandsom should have been deleated too for personal insults...but no..he retired for "personal reasons"

Yes, we expect users to be mature enough to keep their integrity under provocation. As an example, Spritzer was not deleted despite lots of provoking posts. She got deleted for personal attacks.

 You delete a whole topic on your own. Our all posts were deleted because of you. Nobody knows and decide on their own because you delete them. If you want to move a topic you must move it with all posts in it. But you delete them and move it. Some of you don´t even move but delete the whole topic. I am not sure will you delete this topic too. Should i have a copy of this topic. What is your advice?

I am here to help people and myself. In two months I translated lots of texts. But your undemocratic actions affects me badly. I lose my motivation. Please be mature enough and correct your mistake. This is about freedom of speech not about you. Do the right thing.

I think she has mixed up the things..

I stayed in that area for almost 3 years. Do not tell me and lecture me about how they were living.. 

Her idea (and yours) about those pictures are mocking these women were laughable.. And nothing to do with humanism at all.. It only shows sense of humour failure and looking for a reason to show off to me..

Admin! Why thehandsom was not deleated for insults on forum and private messages ?

 You can´t expect such a thing. It is something like somebody can swear to your mom or your wife and you mustn´t attack him. Because you must be mature enough. Judge even can find you innocent in this situation because of provocation. You shouldn´t allow provocation in the first place. If you do, you can´t have a right to delete a person who insults.

I have put up the same picture into my profile.. 

Again! Why thehandsom was not deleated for swearing and personal insults on forun and private messages ?

If anybody´s translation is effected by gokuyum´s motivation please let me know..

I will help and translate..

Because is admins´ friend ?

 It is not humorous. It shows you have a sick taste of humor to me. I didn´t laugh the pictures of tortured Iraqis taken by American soldiers too. I am sure somebody laughed at them too. But I did not. You can blame me lacking of humor and I can blame you lacking of humanity.

Aww.. everyody is ignoring you.. eh? 

I have been warned a few times and many of my posts were deleted in the past is the answer..

You think you are very smart... do you think i forgot ? İ will be here to remember your statemens you made that time... dont worry

See that is the problem of yours.

You have no RESPECT  for any other opinion than yours!! It is all right for you to think that I have a sick taste but saying that you luck sense of humour you get all upset..

And then you come up and tell me about ´freedom of speech´?  

Yeah..I BELIEVE YOU..

 I made my point. I will not argue anymore. I saw your real faces.

 You seem to have dismissed the insults that were hurled by her....continuously.  Provocation was not one sided here.  The fact is that spritzer didn´t like some pictures and wanted them removed.  When she didn´t get what she wanted she did not let the situation go and continued to push in an agressive and inappropriate manner.  She was asked to tone it down but refused. 

Administration has a right to ask someone to stop...no matter who they are and what side they are on.  I have been asked to tone down my comments in the past myself but I don´t take it personally and I don´t "ramp it up" when I am asked to tone it down! 

You don´t have a right to demand that anyone resign here or give someone´s membership back just as spritzer had no right to demand that pictures be removed.  You talk about freedom of speech but what about Elisabeths right to freedom of expression???  You and spritzer were not here when the pictures were originally posted so how can you judge her rational for posting them.  And whether or not she had a "reason" doesn´t matter.....she has a RIGHT!

You want to sanctify spritzer, that´s your right...but how do you know anything about the good deeds done by those that you are now vilifying?  Don´t condemn what you don´t know!

No one did any wrong to spritzer.  She took her own path and she obviously didn´t want to be here in the first place.

Okay, two things:

1. He was deleted and got reinstated couple days back. Please point me to the insults on the forum and we will evaluate. 

2. We are more tolerant towards occasional misbehavior of users who spend time and effort to contribute to this site. theHandsom did some real contributions to TC as opposed to some users whose only activity is yelling around. 

You are mixing things up just to support your point. If someone swears to your mom or wife, that is dealt with as a personal attack and not as a provocation. That is reason for potential account deletion, with or without warning. 

...some animalistic sex essay ?

 This is also a provocation. I made my point. I am not telling how some of administrators provoked her in chat room while she was speaking with istanbulguy about music. Hope he will tell everything. You are bad. I am bad. I guess only good one is killed.

I guess you deleted İstanbulguy too. Good job. Cover your trails.

Yes, a good one that explores the double standards applied to women by men. What is wrong with that?

 Here is a list of thehandsom´s essays and columns:

Columns by thehandsom

19 May 2010   
Armenian Question!!- I
 

21 Jul 2009  

 Animalistic sex, Innocent love
´women for fun´ and ´women for marriage´

19 Jul 2009  

11 Jul 2009  

He has also done countless translations and helped a few members out with advice.  So for all of his faults, he has made many, many contributions which can not be diminished because he has views that put in many fire storms. 

Thanks for making your point. If there is a valid complaint there is no reason why you shouldn´t mention it though. 

Eh? He´s not.

 Let spritzer defend herself. You can return her to defend herself for a little time. Are you brave enough to do this?

You are not talking to a 5 year old. I don´t get all pumped up by a comment like "are you brave enough". She insulted people, got warned, and the next day made some nasty personal attacks and got deleted. There is nothing to defend or explain. 

 Some of admins and members provoked her countless times when she was chatting with istanbulluguy. She didn´t answer them. Ask admins if you want. Let her defend herself.

Be neutral.

 Chat records are kept gokuyum.  There is no reason for asking anyone who said what.  No admin provoked her...unless you consider just being in the chat room at the same time a provocation. 

 give me the chat records of last three days please.

Sure, do you like cream on it?

 Look, admin said it all when he said this is a private site and he owns it.  Whether you agree or not, admin has the right to decide how this site is run. 

You (collectively) can make your own decision....you stay and play nice or you flame out...like spritzer did.  OR you act as a mature adult and make the decision that "this is just not the place for me" and walk away with dignity and grace.  The choices are really quite simple. 

Spritz made her choice...you make yours. 

Gokuyum, the reasons for deleting spritzer have been explained multiple times at this point, and it has been explained to you that ´provocation´ is not considered by this site an excuse to break forum rules. I see no point in engaging in further discussion about this.

 She doesn´t want to defence herself and she doesn´t want to be in this forum. She is such a dear friend to me. And i believe her with all my heart. She is the good one. You are not.

 You don´t consider it as an excuse because you are doing it. You did it to spritzer and istanbulluguy. Am i wrong?

i am really confused and dissapoint that such a social useful turkish class web server i have doubts since spritzer deleted she was says to me i love to share my kind thoughts  on turkish class about everthing but unfortunatly the admistiration is not wisdom AS MUCH AS  like her they couldnt beat her thoughts kindly then deleted as remedy  all i understood

 Please tell how admins provoked you. You can write Turkish, i will translate them.

 You are interregister

This post was for handsome. not necesarily about spritzer. I didnt know what spritzer wrote.

I just hate the idea of deleting things so easily, it shows zero respect for people who participate in discussions. Suddenly posts disappear and then users.

Yes, if you ask me, it was only LIR who was the most fair and competent admin on this site.

 I thought so. LIR seemed like a very nice person. But I guess she is not how she seems. She found pictures funny and she argued with spritzer.

 This speaks volumes...you don´t like anyone who disagrees with your point of view. 

 Just because LIR disagreed with spritzer does not make her any less of a "nice person" than she was before.  How sad that you would base your judgment of her on this incident.  If you can´t get past someone having a different opinion than you on any given issue then you must live a very lonely life.   You will never find anyone who agrees with everything you believe in!

Take off the glasses that you are viewing this situation through and take a fresh, undistorted look.   Your "friend" was no saint here dude! 

 administration  ! we just spoked about turkish musics thats it ,you are could check records there is no a reason for deleted spritzer i am voucher her thoughts ,behaviors ,she didnt anything for deleted but last night were all admins here lady in red,elizabeth,trudy and that the lady hunter babbler thehandsom ,i really suspect that last night how could 3 admins been here at the same time and besides  you are had to be deleted that handsome instead of spritzer he was evertime spoiled up our kind conversation you are wrong dear administration sorry 

Yes, dudes, breathe in, breathe out!

 She and you insulted her too.

 I never called her any names.  She just doesn´t like something I did.  I never personally attacked her. 

 Let me ask you something....do you think it was appropriate for spritzer to call people simpletons? 

 Can I stop now?  I feel like I am going to give birth! 

 girleegirl i could say the same thing if you provoked me as much as her.

 Sure Lisa....just hold your breath until all this blows over......of course some people just aren´t getting it so you may be dead before that happens! 

I think she said ´dudes´ ..

Since when you started feeling like a man?

Oh..is this something to you all feel when you guys become admin?

Painful, as here on TC epidurals are not given...

 Didn´t we have a "doctor" as a member some years back.  Someone please find him for me! 

 I know a shrink who can help you.

 See, gokuyum....you won´t shrivel up and blow away if you make a joke....that was actually very funny...Good Job! 

 You can use this sentence as an excuse if you want to delete me. You don´t need to keep an eye on me like you did to spritzer. Ok Elizabeth?

 OK gokuyum.  Are you asking me to delete you? 

 If you think it is fair. Why not?

offffff.

if you go it will be boring here. you know its not fair to leave me with this bunch of clowns and simpletons esp. after hairy joined (may him be deleted asap).

 I thought you didn´t like me.

Well, If I choose to take your "shrink" remark as a personal attack, I guess I could...but I don´t think the inference that I am mentally ill is so much an attack on me as it is an attack on people who are mentally ill (which I am not...yet).  I invite other members of the class to PM me if they feel insulted by your "shrink" comment.    Does that seem fair enough for you?

Only once i skimmed through that thread yesterday and the last post i saw was from girlegirl containing heavy personal insults to spritzer. If spritzer deleted for personal insults in forum, girlegirl must be deleted too with same reason. Just my understanding...

Let him who is without sin, throw the first stone. It was not an attack to mentally-ill people, it was to you. But if you consider yourself mentally-ill than it was an attack to a mentally ill person. If you represent them all you can delete me.

 I guess that won´t be you or I then?

 You and your forum friends are definetely not.

 I am not the one throwing stones, gokuyum. 

 You are guilty Elizabeth accept it. And correct your mistake. Apologizing is a virtue too. If i were you, I had apologized long time ago. Because your picture and your words were provoking. You shouldn´t have deleted a person who criticized you. And even you were the one who was wrong. Finding these pictures funny is the same thing finding funny a picture of man was eaten by a lion too. You provoked spritzer and made her insult you. You are as guilty as her.

I think, this should stop now

It is obvious to everybody that spritzer was WRONG to ask that picture deleted..

She was told she was wrong..She has no right to ask that picture to be deleted...

She got angry when she could not get what she wanted..

She started to use insulting language..she got her replies..she was warned to tone down..

She knew she would be deleted if she did not..

She could have  apologized  and shown grace and toned it down..But she did not..

Her choice!!

We should respect her wish..

 If you say wrong, it must be true. I believe more she is right now.

Well you believe whatever you like..

But anybody coming up and saying that "that picture is insulting so it MUST be removed" is WRONG..

You can be Jesus/Mohammed/admin/spritzer/Obama..It does not matter..

It is WRONG..

Gokuyum, I think you can´t see the difference between criticism and personal insults. As a matter of fact, i have no idea what insults Spritzer posted but I trust admins they had basis to terminate her membership.

On this very site we´ve had millions of arguments and nobody has ever been deleted simply because they didn´t agree with someone or because they found somebody´s ideas ridiculous. The only rule is not to insult other members personally.

I believe most members have been warned at least once or had their posts deleted - they had all the right to express their resentment via PM to the admins rather than continuing in public.

If I remember correctly, all personal matters should be dealt with the same way, ie via PMs. If you find somebody´s PMs insulting, you may mark their messages as spam, choose to ignore this person or report the message to the admins.

It has never happened that a person was deleted without warning. However, if despite warnings you continue to behave in a way admins found unruly, then you have to face  consequences. It´s actually quite simple.

I understand you are not happy about your friend having been deleted. As you can see, you´re free to say it in public. You like only those that agree with you - fine. Others, like myself, do not dislike a person only because they disagree. I must say I´ve enjoyed all discussions here and I really appreciate the input of people of other opinions. I might not agree with them, but I still value and like them.

 Everybody has a right to say what they want unless they use force like the administration did. Having rules and performing them don´t make anybody right. Those rules may be unjust or or they can be performed unjust. Don´t forget there were rules in Nazi German too. But they had also a dictator dictated everything too.

 I respect your ideas. I am searching for one to respect my ideas too. It is so hard to find such a person. If you are right, it is more difficult than ever. There is a saying in Turkish "Doğru söyleyeni dokuz köyden kovarlar." I think this saying is completely true. Have a nice day.

Don´t forget the rules you compare to Nazi Germany are not imposed on anyone. Deciding to join TC, you learn and either accept the rules or you don´t.

And again, Spritzer was deleted not because she didn´t like Elisabeths pictures but because she used personal insults.

Would you like TC admins to allow personal insults on this site? I doubt it...

 I don´t compare directly. I am giving an example. Spritzer says they insulted me, they provoked me, they mocked me. I believe her. TC Admins shouldn´t allow themselves to do these things also. If they do, you know the name of such an administration.

I don´t want to argue anymore. I think spritzer will come back with a new nick. She can defend herself. Bye.

Exactly..

I agree what you are saying..

Everybody has right to say what they want (of course there are rules but lets ignore them for the time being). No one has complained about it..

what did she say? ´she wanted those pictures removed´  SHE HAS RIGHTS TO SAY THAT

And the person who put up the pictures inthe first place rejected. SHE HAS RIGHTS TO REJECT that..

That is all..

Why did she insist? why did she not stop insisting? why did she take this up to the level of insulting? 

Nothing to do with dictatorship at all.. If you are against the forum rules, say so and ask for a change..

Poor gokuyum, give ear to Niccolo Machiavelli :

"Power is the pivot on which everything hinges.He who has the power is always right; the weaker is always wrong."

And "the weaker" here  is you.

 OMG  Lis you are an admin now and deleting people at that.   Where the hell have I been...

 I like weakers.

 Are you aware of what you are doing? You are fighting against TLC oligarchy !!! Poor you!!!

.... 

I am not sure if he is the weaker or not..

But his and spritzer´s argument was wrong in the first place..

´I find this offensive, you have to remove it´ this is not a winning argument.

Hahaha!... You made me laugh!... So straightforward, direct!.. Though open to discussion, I like it!

Too much bla bla about a picture that was supposed to be a joke. I didn´t think it was super funny, but humor is personal. There was no comment on the freedom, or anything like that of the burka´d women, so the discussion was pointless.

I suggest that she reads the forum rules next time (when starting an account you agree to follow our rules). One of the rules says that if you were deleted for breaking the rules, you can return once more, but if you continue to break the rules and end up deleted again, you can´t return again.

You know what (and sorry for the delayed response but I was in meetings this afternoon), if admin feels that I should be deleted for stating I thought spritzer was being an arrogant bully, then so be it.   I can guarantee you I won’t whine to my friends about it.   I would accept as my own responsibility for my actions and comments.   I know the rules here.

What I would point out the difference between spritzer and I.  And that is that I don’t attack just because I disagree with someone.   I read their tone and respond in kind so that I can be sure I am at a level that person will understand.

Am I always right in how I respond, absolutely not.  Will I tone it down if asked to…..absolutely.  Spriter chose her own fate. 

Come on admin. My posts in the deleted thread are gone now and I don´t think there was anything wrong with them. I spent some time on them and you deleted the whole thread (as strange as it seems it was started by yourself) so I feel like you have stolen my time. You should give us an explaination at least why you have done so.

Why delete the thread you started yourself? Why not just lock it? I am curious.

 I think they asked a question and didn´t like the answers.   

 If the rules were always followed in this case then sev yanliz/ bos sevdim/ nefretebilir would no longer be here but ohh she is .. The rules seem to vary a bit from person to person as far as I can see

Well said! I would say ´quite´, though.

I start to believe she is not a person. She might be a computerized  chat programme which picks up a word from the previous poster and makes a sentence with random words.

I know most of you guys are rightly agitated with her but she is quite funny really. And I am sure she does not know the meaning of  what she is typing..

Fair point, that thread is restored. 

We deleted this user twice and now that she may be back with a new account we are being accused of treating her in a privileged way. This is a really interesting way of looking at things. 

 My point was people (admins) are aware that she is back as a new user. so in line with the rules she would be deleted, as she has already been back twice. 

We just need to be sure that it is the same user as sev yalniz. We don´t want to be deleting the wrong user based on the suspicion that it is a previously deleted user´s new account. What convinces you so certainly that nefretebilir is sev yalniz, share that information and if it makes sense the account will be deleted. 

I know you weren´t asking me - but I would bet my life on the fact that not one person on the site who has come across ´sev´ in the chatroom would have the slightest doubt that ´nefretebilir´ is the same person.  I even thought so as soon as I saw the name and looked at the profile - without needing to see her in the chat room!

 1. Just a LIR said every person in chat room has noticed the same thing nearlly a minute after speaking with her.

2. she says exactley the same odd comments and insults as sev.

3. she is unable to write a sentence that makes any sense

4. Her english structure is so obvious and unique that even if someone tried they would not be able to match it so closely..( nothing is understood)

5. all you need to do is spend one second with her and it is as clear as day.

6. she discusses same odd topics. Dogs- earthquakes and the quote of Miss Sev is as true as Nefretebilir´s

I have come to recognise sev fairly rapidly under which ever aliase she uses.  There are a few things that sev has said when I was in the chat when non one else was there with us and whenever she sees me she trips herself up and I know it is her.

You could block her IP adress, it would solve the problem once and for all. 

She is now no longer nefretebilir she is guest   And if you ask how I know. The same way everyone knows each time. Due to her writting. It is so obvious. She says the exact same things. It´s like a stuck record or something

Okay, fair enough. Nefretebilir is deleted  

We don´t have the ability to block IP addresses at this point. It can be implemented relatively easily but I am not sure how useful it will be because you just need to restart your modem to get a new IP. 

It was a small bug, now we shouldn´t see any more messages with the name guest from her. 

yey thank you

oh yes i think so she will do again must be because she had  extreemly knowledge,mind and entellectual thoughts otherwise it could be a big wasted for this web site and i belive in case the spritzer turn back again i will see her then continue our music conversations 

You delete a person so quickly. Why don´t you try to understand sev? I guess she has a very dramatic life story.

 "You can kill a man but you can´t kill an idea." 

 
You are right too