http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/world/middleeast/13flotilla.html?th&emc=th

Those of you who wonder what holocaust was about, should read the above article.

It makes me sad that you post this article as "what the holocaust was all about"... After the whole boat thing happened it became clear to me, just by conversations, that so many people in Turkey have NO idea of what the holocaust was. I don´t appreciate you posting this article like what happened on that boat was like the holocaust, or even like the blockade of Gaza is the holocaust.

I think the blockade is wrong. Point. I can´t even debate it, plain and simple wrong. But the holocaust caused the death of millions. People were gassed for being of a certain race or religion. People were even forced to throw the dead, gassed bodies of their own families in the burners (which wasn´t a proper burial according to their customs), while guns were pointed at their heads. The ones who weren´t killed immediatly were worked to death, literally.

Perhaps you should read the dairy of Anne Frank, and then visit a place like Auswitsch. It will give you a reality check. Modern day Israel is doing bad things. But the holocaust was a disaster in it´s own right, and can´t be compared to what happened on that boat.

Here is a link that might help explain the Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

The only comment I will say is, my grandfather, may God rest his soul, fought during the second world war against the Nazi.  He crossed the Atlantic ocean from Canada.  He liberated many concentration camps and withnessed first hand the cruelty and inhumanety of the Nazi.

I have to agree with barba_mama on this one. You cannot compare what happened to some militants who tried to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza to the mass murder that happened in the extermination camps of Nazi Germany.

Ah, if your grandfather was still alive I would tell you to thank him from me. I am very much aware of what people like him did for my country during the war.

Hello everybody

the Holocaust never happened as the Israilian state, it´s all fake and brobganda. Everyone stand in Nazi face wa killed not because of religion, and Nazi saw their slf aove of all human not above a special race.

Read this book: The Holocaust industry...Reflections on the exploitation of Jewish suffering

The writier: Norman G. Finkelstein. Jews writer an anti-zionist

you can buy it from Google or Amazon.

Please, change your dealer dear troll...

The thing is that, here, in this world the hate of israel is so great that many wish the re-make of jewish holocaust. Such comments will continue being made. Sad.

Part of my family died in concentration camps, and my grandfather escaped from a work-camp in Germany. He walked to Eastern Europe, and then walked back to Holland. I don´t know about you, but for me the holocaust is very real. But thank you for pretending like my family didn´t die at all. They must be hiding under the table or something. Shame on me for not checking there.

I didn´t say that Nazi didn´t kill more than million people, but the israelis acting as the whole story about them, and as it happened just to kill them.
And because I hate Israel that dosen´t mean I´m going to tell lies about them.

 And the killing of these million people is the Holocaust

"de omnibus dubitandum est"

Descartes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Faurisson

 Faurisson denies the reality of the Holocaust story as it is presented today in history textbooks or in the media. He claims that this story was invented by the victorious Allied powers as a propaganda device, and was readily embraced by dispossessed Jews. But in reality, according to Faurisson, there was no organized program of mass-murder initiated by the Nazis. He estimates that the number of Jews that died during World War II is much less than 6 million - perhaps half that number or less. The gas chambers alleged to have been used to kill millions of Jews were not actually used for that purpose, but rather for de-lousing and pest control. The gas chambers could not have been used for mass murder, because of chemical limitations of the gas itself and physical limitations of the gas-chamber mechanism. The Jews who did die in concentration camps died of communicable diseases such as typhus, exacerbated by crowding and overwork. Many Jewish families were separated by the war and ended up in different parts of the world (e.g. Canada, Israel, various parts of the United States), which led to a sense of loss and ready acceptance of the Holocaust story. Zionists exploited the situation, producing dramatic accounts of the holocaust such as the Diary of Anne Frank and Elie Wiesel´s Night. Faurisson considers the Diary of Anne Frank to be a forgery, and Night a fiction.^[3]

I dont know where you are from or what they taught you at school. The whole idea of nazis I mean the whole machine was to eliminate jews. It really doesnt matter, what you say, you can hide yourself in your wardrobe, you wont change the history. 

For a year I lived near Auschwitz Birkenau, 3 mins away. I walked there very often. The proof is there. Most old people  remember the holokaust.

Why dont you just SHUT UP!

Please no fighting, my grandfather told me remember, never forget what happened and pray it never happens again. 

What a crazy man that Faurisson is...

First of all, being WORKED to death is murder too. Not giving people food, stacking them up in little sheds, and making them work 20 hours a day is the same as killing them. This is a natural result of what the Nazi´s did. You can´t say "oh... those people dies of overwork" and say it is not part of the holocaust.

The diary of Anne Frank is real. The woman who was Anne´s friend, and who found the dairy has only died recently, otherwise she could have gone to that Faurisson and smacked him around the head for telling such lies.

I know a lot of people like to hate Jews, but that people would go so far as to deny the death of millions is crazy. The proof is so clear. Mein Kampf clearly states the ideas behind the Nazi´s, and the killing of "inferior" people, which included Jews, gypsies, but also the disabled.

I really wish that people who say they hate Jews would take the time to actually talk to a Jewish person. All they know about Jewish people is images of some Isreali´s with guns. Education is the only way we can make people realise how crazy their racist and xenophobic ideas are.

Wish words and yes let all hope it never happens again

I might be wrong but somehow I always think there is a strong connection between denial of Holocaust and anti antisemitism and racism..

  what is it?

Things must be said. More and more often people start denying the holocaust. Suddenly out of blue, out of nowhere there are "historians", "teachers" and propagators who cross off one of the biggest tragedies of the modern age. Who are they? Where were they when drunk german soldiers were shooting at children playing outside (one of them was my father in law)?

You know, you are entitled to hate jews, germans whoever or whatever, but please show some respect to millions who died during WW2. The death toll of WW2 was the most greatest in the history of the whole world.

Whoever you are, dont write such rubbish and dont make me angry. Next time I wont be this polite. (this is not addressed to stumpy)

 You two are not at all fun to talk to, barba and theh. You don´t tolerate the difference of opinion. You think that you are always right. I know you hate it when someone disagrees with you and your propaganda, and you start to label them as racist, fascist, antisemitist, uneducated, ignorant and so. You terrorize people with your barrage of hate and bigotry. And you two seem to forget where Science starts from. Should I remind you that it starts from doubt; it does not start from believing. The moment you believe in something, you ahve stopped inquiring. Why should I blindly believe what you tell me? I am not so naive as to believe all what I am told. But I do try and find the best answers. But yes, there is always some truth in a story. But the problem is to find which part is true and which is not. I am not saying that holocaust didn´t exist, but there are some parts that are hard to believe.

I have never been racist in my life even though you have accused me of it many times. I can remember no post of yours which excluded the word "racist". This is not because all the people you are angry with are racists, but probably because your vocabulary is limited or because you are not creative enough to use some alternative words.

Do you know what,  I am living in İstanbul/kadıköy/Caddebostan where most of the Jewish population in the city resided. I have many Jewish neighbors, clients and, of course, friends. I am not anti-semitist, if you must know.

Do you know something else? I was 10 when I was first read "Anne Frank´ın Hatıra Defteri".

Well, I won´t bother to answer you two anymore.

There are no strong enough words in the dictionary to describe the horrible nature of the pogroms the Jews in Europe were subjected to, by the racist Nazi regime. There is little point in arguing with numbers though. Numbers point out to Russian people, civilian and military alike as the greatest sufferers of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. Think of a population as large as the entire inhabitants of the city of Istanbul vanishing from the face of the Earth in the most savage manner and in the matter of months. That was at least one of the most horrible episodes of the WWII. I have never seen anyone singing laments for the lost Russian lives, no comemorations are being held, no credits are being offered by Holywood or the like. This catastrophy is buried in the ashes of history and it is only remembered by the Russians. You are free to curse them, mock them or deny their terrible fate, no one will stop you from doing that unlike the Holocaust the mere denial of which will bring forth legal consequences. What a great sense of equality. It is possibly because no one is funding the Russians, nor do they fund the Poles or even the Gypsies. 

When the catastrophy in Europe took place, the tremor of it was felt strongly among Jewish communities. A social dysfuntion developed filling many Jews with hatred and a desire to take revenge. Two options were on the table: to form an independent Jewish state or to continue living in small communities scattered accross Europe and elsewhere. To realize the first option, some plans were needed to be made and those were made with precision comparable to armed bank robbery. The Arabs were robbed of their land by force, and the Israeli state was founded on it. The survival of this new state was guaranteed by the powers that be. This coincided with the rise of the Middle East as a rich source of fossil fuel. Partnerships were formed and the history began being re-written.

Today, Arabs don´t like Israel, they think they are some armed maniacs chasing them in the streets of their occupied land because this is more or less what happens. They also think all evil comes from Israel because it actually does come from Israel. The world leaders are beginning to realize that it is wrong to occupy other people´s territories and build what they call as "settlements" on them and they are calling for steps to normalize the lives of the people in a blockaded Ghaza. So much as it takes an Arab to get education to understand a Jew, it takes a Jew to go through the inhuman conditions that the Arabs are in, to understand them.

Thehandsom points out to the relationship between racism and antisemitism. When you read books of a certain kind up to page 14, this is the impression you will get. This is what you have when you are unable to see the larger perspective which includes the one that is visible through the eyes of a victim.

I was not thinking about you to be honest when I said ´there is a strong connection between denial of Holocaust and antisemitism and racism´.
I was more thinking like Ahmedinejad/Hamas/David Irving/KKK etc.

I dont remember calling you a racist..May be I did But I dont remember now (Because sometimes racist ideas are just flowing like a river )..

Please show me where and I will tell you why..

If I can not tell you why I will apologise publicly.

But you were not personally in my mind when I said ´there is a strong connection between denial of Holocaust and antisemitism and racism´.  Apologies if there is a misunderstanding there..

And of course ´denying the holacoust itself is not a proof for antisemitism´

I though, instead of showing an image of a racist group of sort like KKK or what ever I would show you the face of one soldier among thousand that fought the oppression of the Nazi Jackboot.

This is Lance Seargent Laurent Bertin of the Canadian North Shore Regiment.  He was part of the Canadian troups that landed on Juno beach on D-Day.  This is my grandfather, he passed away in 1989.  He was a proud, kind and gentle man and the best grandfather that ever lived.  He was but a boy when he joined because he lied about his age, he said he was older than he actually was. 

Sorry I could not ost the picture

...many people suffered during WWII....not only Jews....How about the Roma? How about the homosexuals, the disabled? We hardly ever hear about them. Then there were the soldiers and the prisoners of war who were worked to death. The Battle of Iwo Jima was a horror.

WWII was not only about Jews. It is true, they were targeted in a particularly horrific manner. However, one thing that I have noticed...and maybe I´ll be attacked for this....but the question is never asked....why? Why were these people targeted? I am not saying in any way the targeting is justified, but what is the reason? I believe understanding things helps, things do not happen for no reason, even if that reason appears unreasonable one should analyze the reasons. 

I´m afraid the current actions of the Right Wing government of Israel will give cause for more antisemitic activity. It certainly isn´t helping make friends.

It seems...the Holocaust has been played out....and yes, it has become an industry. Yes it was horrible...all wars are horrible! yes...but one can only play the same song so long before it looses it´s effectivness.  It is almost three generations now. Two of those generations have no memory of WWII, but they all have memories of hearing about home demolitions. 

The amount of people subjected to atrocities was unprecedented, but does that justify the atrocities NOW being committed by Israelis against the Palestinians? Is it reasonable for a Jew from anywhere in the world be granted citizenship in Israel, but someone who has family who has lived in the Levant for millennia does not because they are not Jewish?

What is Jewish anyway? If your mother´s mother´s mother was Jewish you are, even though you may be an athiest? What would Moses say? It reminds me of the way American "Blacks" have taken the definition of themselves by their oppressor...the one drop rule. 

The People of Palestine have been subjected to horrible conditions, their homes have been confiscated, their land confiscated, their water confiscated....and yes, I would call what has been happening to them another Holocaust.

Now we have another people who are traumatized, who have been driven to the brink of sanity......I´ve read it takes 10 generations for a people to work through cultural trauma.....so we have two people traumatized and acting crazy. I feel the Israelies have been acting like spoiled children using the Holocaust as an excuse, using antisemitism as an excuse. Nobody is allowed to criticize their actions. Enough is enough. It´s time to grow up and take responsibility for ones actions and learn to share. 

What do you expect the Palestinians to do, lay down and die? They have no place to go. Should the world just turn a blind eye because of the artocities committed during WWII?

It was not the Palestinians who perpetuated the Holocaust.....why should they give up their land for it?...and yes, I know about the Grand Mufti Of Jerusalem...who was appointed by the British Mandate authorities....and against Zionism.  He was not coming out of hate for another people because they were Jews. He was against the take over of his people´s land. People forget, the takeover of Palestine did not start after WWII. It started in the mide 19th Century. Petah Tikva was founded in 1878 with a grant from Baron Rothschild.

Good Lord, when will we stop this insanity and learn to live together! Resources HAVE to be shared. One can not, should not have it all, at the expense of another´s existance and humanity. Because one´s grandfather suffered, does not give one the right to perpetuate suffereing on others. Haven´t we learned?

I have heard Norman Finkelstein speak, his parents are Holocaust survivors, he is very well educated on the matter and not an antisemite at all.

It would be naive to say that Jews were the only group suffering during WWII. I think everybody suffered back then, even the evil Germans. However, denying Holocaust is just not fair. Jews were on top of Hitler´s propaganda to give him power. He needed people to hate someone and it was easier for him to use |Jews than, say, Russians, who were one country away. Jews had been having hard time in Europe for centuries when Hitler used them as Germany´s enemies. Of course it doesn´t mean that Jews are the most important victims of Natzists, all victims are equally important.

WWII was a tragedy to everyone, Poles who were invaded and after years of herioc struggle betrayed by their allies and handed over to the Stalin´s regime; Russians whose government never cared about the life of their soldiers (as Vineyards said, they had the highest number of fatalities) and sent them to fight hopeless battles or die in friendly fire; all non-German citizens of the countries they occupied; all sent to concentration camps; all sent to work in Germany (my family) where they suffered inhumane treatment, abuse and feared for their lives and the lives of their children all the time.

To deny Holocaust is ridiculous especially that there are still people who remember it, there are documents and places of murder. It´s not ancient history being reconstructed from bits and pieces...

However you have to understand the difference betwen Jews and Israelis. Being against horrenduous crimes Israel is guilty of in Palestine, doesn´t make anyone an antisemite, does it? The mistake people often make criticising Israel is speaking against all Jews, not just Israeli.

Okay...here goes...

First of all, to Scalpel, there is a difference between having a different opinion, and somebody denying basic FACTS. The holocaust is not my opinion, but has been proven again and again. If I say to somebody "the earth is round" and they say "the earth is flat", does it make me a horrible person for saying that they are wrong? Should I respect the "opinion" that the world is flat?

Second, to Alameda, you are right. I already mentioned that Jews weren´t the only ones being killed during these events. Even Christian Germans were killed if they didn´t fit the "perfect Arian" picture. The horrible experiments that were done on the ones that were not killed are worse than death.

And third, too Scalpel, the part about people hating Jews was aimed at the person who literally said "I hate Jews" on here. I was actually responding to what Aalaa said. If you feel like I was talking to you, than you have to question yourself about that. When the shoe fits....

People started denying the war and the holocaust straight after the WW2 in 60 and 70.

Im sorry if my posts yesterday too agressive.   Please, say anything, but dont say it didnt happen.

And Vineyards is right. Soviets were killed en masse. Holywood makes films of glorious victorious western allies, while it was soviets who contributed much in ending the war.

I don´t think your post was too aggresive. And you know what, if you and I agree on something than it MUST be true!

 - would he be likely to be?

Yes Hollywood makes films about the war but they do not represent the Allied point of view, it represents the American´s point of view.  Let me tell you that if it were not for the Canadians efforts the Americans would not have been the ones liberating France.  In the first hour of the battle on the Normandy coast Canada lost 50% of it´s fighting men and they faught against some of the best trained German soldiers like the 1st SS and 12th SS devisions and Panzer-Lehr-devision and this through Caen and Falaise to liberate Paris.

I am not saying that Canadians are better than Russians or Americans or any other country that fought.  Every country involved suffured massive losses.  If it were not for the combinated efforts of ALL Allies, and I include the Russians in the term Allies WW2 may have ended diffrently.

Now WW2 ended in 1945, the denials of the Holocaust started in the 50´s and 60´s, 15 to 25 years afterwards.  From 1950 to 1953 we had the Korean war.  From 1960 to 1975 it was the Vietnam war.

As for other facts, there is not one decade in the 20th century that did not see a war in one way or another in other words from 1900 to 1999 there has been a total of 20 estimated wars going on at one time or another with WW1 and WW2 having the most human lost.  Approximately 35 to 40 million soldiers have died in the wars of the Twentieth Century, nearly three quarters of them in the two World Wars.

I end this with a quote from Jack Handy a humorist who gives us a glimps of the nature of man: "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they´d never expect it."

Well, a similar incident happened in Korea. Turkish brigade originally intended as reserve forces were used by American and British generals as a shield to perform a retreat of their own soldiers. Turkish soldiers got involved in a face-to-face war with North Koreans at a place called Kunuri. Thousands were killed or maimed. As usual, Turkey was expected to send troops in return of some political benefits. Every little benefit Turkey gained from the West has always costed the country the lives of its soldiers.

  Good one.

Barba, I don´t think Alpha meant the boat incident in particular was a holocaust, but rather the situation as a whole for the Palestinians is.

Is it the amount of victims that determine if something is a holocaust? Look at the situation during the recent Operation Cast Lead by Israel. Were civilians even allowed to retrieve the bodies of slain loved ones? To many had to watch while wild dogs were eating them in front of their eyes.....They had to watch while their loved ones bleed to death in front of them, unable to get simple medical care that would have saved their lives and reduced suffering.

Open your eyes to the situation for the Palestinians. It is a slow death either by actually being shot, imprisoned for resisting, starving to death slowly (at any rate, not having the proper nutrition does damage growing bodies and brains. It kills future potential) I can´t even imagine what they are going through. Would I call it a holocaust? I don´t know what to call it, it doesn´t have a name....yet....but I do know it is wrong.  What the Israeli Right Wing goverement is doing to the Palestinians is wrong.  Uri Avnery, Illan Pappe and many honorable Israelis agree, but seem to be helpless to prevent it.

Read The Ethnic cleansing of Palestine...or The Goldstone Report....I don´t know how humans could have sunk so low...but I do know it´s important to recognize it....same as it´s important to recognize genocide so it´s not repeated, but if it has a name or not, we need to recognize wrong and stop it instead of being hung up on things having names. A starving bleeding sick child is still a bleeding starving sick child weather they are Jewish, African, Palestinian, Iraqi, Vietnamese..or anywhere. We need to do what we can to prevent it from happening, not arguing over what to call it. 

Holocaust is real, but so are Gazza and the 19 civilians killed by trained killers on an armless (except for sticks and kitchen knives) ship in open seas.

About a 100 million people died in WW2, roughly 5 millon were said to be of Jewish origin. The whole story is very sad, but the Jewish casualities were only 5%, for god´s sake !

How long will the rest of the world be ransomed over this story of "suffering Jews" ?

He has been accused of it......

Jihad against Finkelstein

It seems to me that you compare the Holocaust with the ship incident. In this case, dear Alpha, I reject any lamentation. You know, in central asia, turkic brothers (Kirgiz and Uzbek) are killing each other. If I tell you the stories I receive via email, you would be horrified. And of course its not trumpeted by the world media like in the case of the ship. At the moment whatever Israel does its at the attention of the whole world.

The case of Jewish Question was obvious. It was Nazi´s major objective, Number One goal. You are talking about the death toll of WW2, but the extermination of Jews has started long before WW2.

Jews did suffer throughtout the whole history. They do and will do Im sure.

However their suffering has nothing to do with the political moves of Israel.

Stumpy,

I appreciate what you wrote.

You know, it just makes me angry. The west knew well what was happening in Germany under Hitler. GB, France and USA just ignored, waited a bit, allowed all the attrocities, watched people being butchered. GB of course did everything what it could to protect its kingdom and USA greatly profitted from the war. They could have stopped it right from the beginning, they had everything, all millitary possibilities, but they didnt.

We live in the world of hypocracy.

I am sorry I am again angry.

Do you realise how big of a percentage that was of the total Jewish population? 60 to 70% of the total Jewish population was killed. I´m sorry, but 5 million isn´t big enough to be outraged about, but a couple of people on a boat is? The Holocaust is the name given to the events of World War 2. We give the supression of people in Gaza a different name. And if you want to talk percentages, those people in Gaza... what percentage of the total Muslim population do they really represent?  There are about 1,5 billion muslims in the world, and about 1,4 million people in the Gaza strip. So that´s less than 1% of the Muslim population. I can´t care about 5 to 6% of the deaths in World War 2, so I´m sure not going to care about 1% of the Muslims being surpressed right? (read this with sarcasm please, I do care)

I´m sorry. 19 people dying is horrible, however it´s not the Holocaust. People making this about the Holocaust are NOT helping the case of the people in Gaza at all, but they are just fueling more conflict. People get angry, instead of finding common grounds and peace.

A wrong can not be the justification of another wrong.

Nothing can decrease the savagery of Nazis and the sevegary of Israel as well.

Once upon a time Nazis tried to destroy whole Jews, Slavics, Gypsees, Poles etc. That had to be punished with the heaviest punishments. But that do not give the right to any of those groups to do the same.

None of those groups rather than Israel (Jews) do the same to other nations but Israel Messacres in Palestinia. The flotilla attack is a part of that big picture. 

Killing one innocent person is like killing the whole world. If one would like to be justice he/she shall begin with not to compare the number of deaths but to criticise the soul of the events.

Who said that the Holocaust justifies what is happening in Gaza? Nobody in this forum did. Only thing I´m saying is, that comparing what happened on that boat or even in Gaza right now to what happened in World War 2 to millions of people is wrong. The blockade is wrong, the occupation is wrong, the opression is wrong. However, you should have to drag the death, deportation, horrible "medical" experiments, the slavery, and so on of millions in this to make that point valid.

Barba....the Gaza matter is about Palestinians....not Muslims. Shifting the attention to the world population of Muslims of off base here.  I´m sorry to see that they have been split even more now into Gazans and ???...but they are all Palestinians.

Please do not forget, they are a mixed group, some are Muslim, some are Christian, some even are Jews (but those are now Israelis) So now, what percentage of the Palestinian people are we talking about now?

It is unfortunate that many of the Christians have left. I have known Palestinian people for many years, there is an amazing diversity among them. The one thing they do have in common is that they are NOT Jewish.  

I agree with you Lemon, the reason why Canada was involved from the beginning of the war was because Canada was a former colony of GB.  It makes me angry also. America waited until they got attacked at Pearl Harbor to get involved in the war after being solicited by GB numerouse times.  America came in and acted like the heros when all was over.  Canada could have refused to join the war but we sided with GB and were there from the begining.  I never heard my grandfather say anything bad about Russian soldiers, I remember him saying that the were "hell of a fighter", meaning that they were good soldiers but he never did like the atitude of the Americans.

I know. Its just me. My reaction to this issue is emotional.

Jew haters will even go this far, they will say the holocaust didnt happen. You may not believe it. But please, dont say it didnt happen, go and check, but dont repeat the slogans of jew haters.

Beware !

The basic mistake propaganda makes you believe is that one such atrocity can somehow be better or somewhat  more tolerable compared to another. People are led to believe their own atrocities can somehow be justified, because others were equally bad - sometime back in history.

There is no such comparison; all such atrocities should be condemned with equal strength.

A Jew who claims his race was mistreated thru the history (which is not always true; read history of Safarad Jews and what happened to them in 1592, when they were expelled from Christian Spain), yet can try to justify death of 19 civilians in the hands of  Israeli commandos or can overlook the suffering people in Gazza Concentration Camp does not deserve any respect or symphaty on humane grounds.

aha, there is one interesting theory... due to it jews were "financial managers" of empire. when emprire collapsed they just took all money... that is why every knight had right to come to jew and require his money back, and was given. that is why, german kings asked for the same and jews gave them money back.

who has money - rules the world. isnt it good reason ? jews got just too much money, which did not belong to them

 My point was that using percentages is crazy. Saying that the death of the Jews is not so important because it´s "only 5%" is crazy. And I´m sorry, but didn´t many people on the boat say stuff about "saving their Muslim brothers" instead of "saving the Palestinians"? More people make this about Jew versus Muslims, instead of what it really is... Israel versus Palestie. I was just trying to illustrate my point, that people are making an error in their reasoning.

Before it was also said that killing one person is like killing the world. These words were used as a point against Israel. I agree with the words, so the suicide bombings we saw a few years back (which substantially decreased after the horrible blockades the Israeli´s put up) were also wrong. We seem to have forgotten about those lately. Is it so hard to say "Oh, you know what... what is happening is really bad, what happened on the boat was really bad, but perhaps people should not keep dragging the holocaust in it?" People have blood on their hands on both sides. It has to end... period. We don´t have to mock, deny, or abuse the death of millions to end it.

Let me agree with you to some extent. However, I have a feeling that you are a very selective on the news you chose. You dont mind comparing The Holocaust to the ship incident, but at the same time you arent able to lament over darfur´s hundreds of thousands of victims. etc etc. There is also a huge north korean concamp as a whole country. Why dont you lament over them? Or you didnt happen to send a ship over there?Or they arent simply muslims?

I dont want to justify Israeli´s political moves. But still you deny them the right to defend themselves. Let me give you an example: imagine British or Dutch wanting to aid Kurds in Turkey, they send off a ship of humanitarian aid, you reject the entrance. They break the border. You send your comandos, theres a fight. The result 19 british-dutch dead civilians. Whose side are you with?

Let me list item by item.

* The Holocaust was real and there is no question about how terrible it was. The incident happened nearly 70 years ago, more or less during the prime time of our grand or for some of us grand grand fathers.

*The forties was a period marked by the rise of fascism which is essentially a despotic and racist regime. The fight was said to be between the good guys and the fascists. One of the good guys the US had not settled its race related problems yet. The black people had their own neighborhoods, they were not welcome in a white man´s shop or to sit with white people on the buses. There were all the signs of a systematic state racism. For Russia, the fascist Nazi regime was a natural enemy. Fascism helped Russia to lay the foundations of their own system. It provided instant justification for the iron curtain she would build later on.

*The rise of the Nazi regime in Germany was aided by the Social Democrats. Doesn´t that ring a bell, remember Turkey....

*America emerged as a great liberator from the war. No one cared about its own racist policies and culture which would go strong for at least a couple of more decades. There are lots of books covering the WW2 many of which were written with an omniscient point of view. They tell us what the soldiers were doing in the trenches, what was passing through the minds of the generals as they were issueing their command and the backgrounds of the vital decisions made by the political leaders of the era. They all do this from a British and American perspective. With millions of German documents confiscated by the American army, we can only count on their version of the truth. They have the papers in their own stores and no one is allowed to see them.

In the end nothing can nullify the horrible truth which apparent but I personally would argue like this:

German people were probably not more racist than Americans. They were passing through difficult times politically. The irresponsible policies of Social Democrats helped a terrible leader in Adolf Hitler to hold the reins of the country and the rest followed.

Imagine what would happen if Hitler was American President.

Stumpy, sorry. Its me again. Started talking to you, ended talking to someone else.

no problem Lemon, I was wondering and was not too sure, it´s ok and I think we are on the same page concerning this issue

"Break border" is the key phrase here.  Israeli attack was in open seas. Fully armed and trained killers attacked a civilian ship in full cowardice. One of the victims had 5 bullets thru his head (indicating that there was at least one trigger happy bugger among the brave Israeli commandos) and a few received the bullets from the tops of their heads (meaning the shots were indiscriminately fired from the helicopters).

The relief ship was thoroughly searched after it was confiscated; no weapons other than sticks (actually spade and showel handles as part of construction aid carried) and kitchen knives were found.

Your insuniation that my interest may lay with relief workers´ religion or nationality, rather than their humane intentions is total crap; 8 the 19 relief workers murdered in cold blood were neither muslims nor Turks. Your peaceful killers killed anyone in sight.

My message clearly says "all atrocities should be equally condemned...." . Your reply clowns around, asking me why I do not condemn this or that other atrocity.

Alphaf and Lemon, let this be a chance to share our knowledge without flaming the other party. We all make this mistake now and then. Now it is the time to cool down. I believe everyone is learning something from one another. When we talk about sensitive matters we stand on the edge of a fight and flaming. When we ask a question about hidden intentions, personal interests etc, the fall begins. Let´s avoid these pitfalls they are very easy to avoid. 

Absolutely fine by me. If necessary I apologise to Alpha, I may have been overtaken by my emotions.

Let me stay away from this thread. 

I dont mind the discussion going on about politics etc. but not on holocaust or WW2.

My regards to everyone and I apologise if I hurt anyone´s feelings.

Being an angel does not suit you!!

There seems to be a tendency these days to play down the holocaust and talk up other events. Alpha said earlier that only 5 million Jews were killed or 5% of the total killed in the war but this was over 50% of the Jewish population in Europe. If you single out Poland the figure is far higher. Most of these men,women and children were non-combatants and singled out simply because they were Jewish. Vineyards says it was a long time ago, yes but I was almost 8 years old when the war ended and remember my mother listening to war reports on a crackly radio. During my army service in Germany in the late fifties I was stationed at Hohne and Fallinbostel quite near to the Bergen Belsen camp and there was still large numbers of Poles and other Eastern Europeans in our camps who could not go back to their homes. 

The thing is that its not me neither anyone else who play the Holocaust card for justification of Israeli action but people who hate jews do play this card saying that it didnt happen or only a few jews died. Everytime something happens related to Israel or jews its always played. I dont know what thy want to achieve.

As for eastern europeans didnt or couldnt return was simple. In Soviet Union they were arrested again and sent to camps again and later on killed for being "traitors".

I never said the Holocaust could be used to excuse the actions of the Israelis. I was merely replying to attempts on here to trivialise the event. Alpha said for gods sake only 5 million Jews died but 5 million out of a total of 9.5 million in Europe is a lot of people.

You were right Barbara, I should be more fair. Jewish  not all the same, and the world saw some of them who out in demonstrations supporting Arabic issues, in America, England and in Israel itself. So thanks for reminding me.

I reduced my replay after reading all replays, No communts on Holocust. I am not agreeing about must of what had been saying here.

that´s all.

thanks fo everybody, it´s my first post in multiculture forum. and nice to meet you all

Whats wrong with people, they use small letters?

Dear Aalaa, no offence taken by me. And I apologise if I have offended you by my emotional comments. You may have had those ideas from the different sources and believed.

I have withdrawn from this subject and calmed down a bit.

My regards to all.

This is the most polite & virtuous lemon i have ever seen since i registered to TLC...

How about what is currently going on in Gazza? Will that qualify as a extermination camp? 

Any act that aims to exterminate people by blocading them from their basic needs is horrible; only idiots can see any difference between two such similar acts, depending on whether the culpits are Nazi Germans or Israelis.

In 1492 Jews suffered deeply under inquisition in Spain and were eventually expelled from that country, in great humiliation.

Turks were the only nation who welcomed them (Safarad/Sephardic Jews) to a safe refuge where they can live, work, prospere and practice their religion, in full freedom....

What happened afterwards may explain why they were expelled from Spain in the first place...if any one cares to follow it up in history.

World is getting wiser to the ugly face of Sionism. There are many Jews that realize this, and oppose the current Israeli policies.

...seriously... now you want to say that the Spanish Inquisition made sense? First of all, Jewish people lived in Turkey LONG before the 15th century. But come on, I´ll humour you. Why, oh why did the Jews deserve to be slaughtered in the 15th century (together with all other "infidels")?

I don´t think Turkey was the only nation welcoming Jews then

"From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in 1025 through to the early years of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, Poland was one of the most tolerant countries in Europe.^[2] Known as paradisus Iudaeorum (Latin for Jewish paradise) it became a unique shelter for persecuted and expelled European Jewish communities and a home to the world´s largest Jewish community. According to some sources, about three-quarters of all Jews lived in Poland by the middle of the 16th century.^[3][4][5]"

(from wikipedia)

Alphie, nobody here argues that what Israel does is justified. I think each single poster in this thread finds Israel´s actions appalling.

However, you must see the difference between plans to eliminate the whole race and a war of territory. Israelis do not want to annihilate Palestinians because of their nationality or religion, do you think they´d be nicer if there were Roman Catholics living in palestine? Or if they were Spanish? Israel is on a territorial war - they want to grow to power and Palestinians are in their way.

During WWII Hitler´s plan was not to take over Jewish country (as they had none), he wanted to destroy the race he had personal hatered for. And that´s the difference.

Horrenduous as Israel´s actions are, they are no different to any warfare that has ever happened. Think about all the wars of territory in history. Does this one seem really worse?

Apart from what went on in that part of the history which we all are quite proud, but it should be noted that it was not Turkey, it was Ottoman Empire which always had a multi-national, multi-religious structure throughout  its history.

When we came to a single national Turkey era, unfortunately , the records in our dossier are not records we should be proud of..

You can call it  hysteria because of the resentments for non-muslims or Turkification or redistributing of the wealth etc but in 1934 with the first ever pogrom of Turkey, approximately 15.000 jews were forced to leave the cities/towns where they were living and had to go to other cities and other countries..(1934 Thrace incident http://ejts.revues.org/index2903.html .. Turkish source http://www.taraf.com.tr/ayse-hur/makale-1934-trakya-olaylari.htm from Ayse Hur)

With the second world war, treatment of foreigners in Turkey and with the born of Israel in 1948, jews emigrated in masses.  

Now we have only 25.000 jews living in Turkey..

I am not talking about Jews in general...My post clearly specifies Sephardic Jews.

I like your optimistic approach. However, the civilian ship confiscated in open sea, using brute military force, killing 19 armless relief workers is still not released and no apology - apart from idiotic excuses - from murderers seem to be forthcoming.

Do you still think I have personal intersts vested in the issue?

Not really !....It would be a miracle to spot a Sephardic Jew elsewhere...See if you can find a Jew speaking Ladino in Poland.

Jews of any interest ever settled in Poland are the so called "Frankists". Their leader was eventually prisoned for his unique sermons and his followers were forced to accept Christianity. More information is available on the net.

Even so, what did they do to deserve torture?

Let´s set the record straight. The focus here is on the need for exchanging messages without flaming the other party. It is not a call made specifically for you.

I don´t think you have a special interest regarding this matter, I don´t think your meaning is bad either. I know you are angry over Israel´s blatant violation of international laws and subsequently turning this into a show of bravado.

On paper Israel is a tiny country, they can play the victim whenever they need a favour from the US. I am sure they are doing this when they talk to the US leaders emphasizing how important having a full-fledged defense system in place to maintain the country´s existence in the Middle East is. Peculiarly, the US appreciates this need and provides the country with a generous access to its conventional and nuclear arsenal. Presently, it is believed that Israel owns 200 nuclear war-heads and a good supply of all the biochemical weapons known to man. It is impercievable that US would let Israel play with all this power unless of course Israel is considered by the US as an avatar. In the end, these two countries are known to be responsible for the formation of the Neocon stance.

To make a long story short, it was not only Israel that attacked the flotilla. Since the end of the 80´s there is a search for alternative political and economic formations that could counterbalance the unreasonable weight the US and Israel have gained over the recent years and these two are showing their baseball sticks whenever their authority is challenged. They have a simple policy that can be summer up as "If you are not my friend you are my enemy." We have become the enemy of Israel although we have not killed a single Jew. The terror incidents in South East have suspiciously increased several folds. The terrorist now have access to more powerful weapons. Brazil gave up on it role to moderate the talks between the West and Iran after receiving a denouncing statement from the US.

AlphaF,

There is a significant community of Sephardic Jews in Montreal Canada, you can also find one in New York

I am always amazed to see the level of imagination some people show when it comes to ´trying to find foreign involvements for our own internal Kurdish problem´!! 

No countries can escape from this paranoid imagination of us..

USA/ALL EU(FRANCE/UK/BELGIUM/GERMANY/ITALY/GREECE)/ARMENIA/RUSSIA/IRAQ etc and now Israel..

Narnia and middle-earth are next!!

Phew!!  

Thehandsom, you will not stop ridiculing people, will you?

It´s an absolute childeshness to consider international relations out of scope while commenting about ethnic conflicts.

You know, there is a middle way. It seems like people are either in the "nobody has nothig to do with anything" camp, or in the "the USA is behind EVERYTHING" camp. What happened to a more realistic view of reality? Political and economic ties do have an effect on a lot of stuff, but the USA is not trying to create war everywhere and destroy the world with nuclear weapons. It´s a shame that people don´t appreciate proof and logical thinking anymore... It´s like everything is black or white, and nobody is able to see that most of the world is grey.

I am yet to see any of your grey tones. You say the US is not trying to create wars, just check out how many of the wars currently being fought have the US as one of the sides. The US is the most warlike nation in the world. It has the largest military budget and it is never tired of reinforcing its arsenal. The US is so much involved in expensive military campaigns, countless international military bases etc. that it has become economically difficult to maintain them. What else do you expect them to do; invade Europe maybe?

Can it be possible that their grandfathers all had a stopover in Ottoman land, before they ever saw the New World?

Well

There is either foriegn involvement or there is not.

If you ask these people to show any proof of about foreign involvement, they wont be able to show any!!

There is no credible evidence none what so ever eu or usa are supporting them actively.. If there was one it could have been an declaration of a war...

what is there? Just romurs that have been invented by the some people ..
As far as I know ONCE there were a few Greek army officials pictured once and they belong to Greeks deep state..And then they were finished by the Greeks!! -we are trying to do the same with Ergenekon case btw-
Anybody has NOT SHOWN any proof of foreign agency involvements!!!! If people think there are, people should PROVE that.. Any document will be appreciated for this purpose
It is just one of these paranoid ´Turks being feared and nobody wants Turks strong; everybody against us´ type imaginary theories..
Fairy tales.. It makes us feel better and important..
But that is all..
That is what Kenan Evren, our beloved dictator, told us all those years!!(He also said that to us ´there are no Kurds in Turkey´ )

When you look at into history with Kurds, almost all of them being accused with having orders from foreigners.. Almost all of them from seyh Sait to Dersim incidents..

But later on, thruth cames out. 

Also 2 years ago we discussed this here:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_31016

I can´t resist it anymore, welcome to the kindergarten. We are expected to present proofs of  our suspicion about an Israeli involvement as politicians, military and the secret services are still in the thick of it.

A suspicion is a suspicion. There are the tell-tale signs of of it:

1- After the bloody Blue Marmara attack in the international waters, the Israeli government rejected to apoligize and demanded an apology instead.

2- In the time between Erdogan-Perez tension and the flotilla attack, the Israeli government took a series of actions to punish Turkey internationally, these include:

- The meeting crisis: The Turkish minister was seated in a low chair and pictured as the Israeli minister was overlooking him in a despising manner. A childish act of scorning.

- The Israeli government left its traditional stance of siding with Turkey regarding Armenia and began backing Armenians which facilitated the lobby activities for Armenia and result began coming in. In other words, Israel opinion about whether the Armenian massacre really happened or not depends solely on its relations with Turkey.

-Whenever Ghazza blockade was brought up by Turkey, Israel insistingly pointed out to the conflict between the Kurds and Turks naming Turkey as the last nation to teach Israel a lesson.

-The Israeli government advised its people against travelling to Turkey and a number of Turkish companies in Israel faced loss of business and legal actions were taken against them to terminate their contracts on account that Turkey is no longer a reliable partner.

And in the aftermath of the flotilla crisis, terror incidents increased several folds. Whereas only a couple of months ago people were talking about a new initiative, terrorists were asked to return their homes. Somebody pulled the trigger and we begin losing tens of people in one go. Without planning and provision of capable arms how could the PKK achieve this?

In recent days Europe has been witnessing operations made against the PKK. The chain of anti-PKK operations started in Italy and then spread to France, Germany and Belgium. 

Following these operations against the PKK camps, a French member of the European Parliament made striking statements about the PKK camps in France.

The French Policemen Knew the Presence of the Camp

Concerning the PKK camps in the Larzac region of southern France, Joseph (José Bové said that the French police and security teams were aware of the presence of the camps there. 

The PKK terrorist camp in the Larzac region of France has been active for 15 years. The camp trains many PKK militants and is located in one of the biggest farms of the region. 

José Bové Attended to a PKK Meeting...

By Gamze Coskun (JTW)

For full text please visit

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/99777/french-mp-jose-bove-declares-his-visit-to-larzac-pkk-camp.html

.

Amid the growing outrage over an Israeli attack on civilian ships in international waters that killed nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists and wounded dozens last week, there is deepening suspicion about the possible Israeli involvement in the killing of seven soldiers in a terrorist rocket attack on a naval base in İskenderun, in the southern province of Hatay.

Turkish intelligence organizations are looking into possible connections between the two incidents that occurred on the same day only hours apart. The terrorist act was carried out by the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), an outlawed organization that has been listed as terrorist group both in Turkey and in much of the international community. Analysts claim Israeli secret services may have contracted the job to the PKK to send a message to the Turkish government.

Sedat Laçiner, head of the Ankara-based International Strategic Research Organization (USAK), told Sunday’s Zaman that there are some groups in Israel actively working with the PKK using its Iranian wing, the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PJAK), which has been waging a war in western Iran. He said the link is more than a simple conspiracy theory, it’s a substantiated one as some members of Mossad and retired Israeli military officers were spotted training Kurdish fighters in the northern Iraqi Kurdish region...

For full text please visit;

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-212267-suspicion-growing-about-possible-link-between-pkk-and-israel.html

 There were enough Sepheric Jews that went to Morroco, Egypt, Bulgaria and Greece....

The PKK is just the nippers of secret services. 

They do not represent innocent Kurds.

If they were working for Kurds sakes, they would not increase their attacks when Turkey announces and implements an initiative towards Kurdish people.

The PKK harms the Kurds most. The initiative began in a relatively peaceful environment but PKK and their owners painted the lands with blood after the initiative and simultanously with flotilla attack, Iran votings etc.

This is the last flutter of PKK. All times in the world history, bloody conflicts took place before the solution of a significant problem.

At the end of this process the PKK will certainly be destroyed and we will go on our good life with our Kurdish brothers. 

This process will also fecilitate the problems to be solved between the army and civilians. The common enemy, the clear statement of cooperation between Israel and the PKK will interlock us. 

Good ones always win!

You know what... you are all so right, the USA IS behind everything bad in the world! How could I be so blind. The day I was born they had hidden camera´s everywhere, to see how I would fit in their great scheme of ruling the world. When I was born, I was taken away for half an hour. They told my mother it was to clean me, but I must have been chipped!

Since Turkey is one of the very few (lately fragile) allies the USA has in the region, the USA thought it was a good idea to attack the Turkish boat because... wait... uhm... Oh no wait, it´s because the USA has supported Israel to crazy lengths in the past (leading to critique on USA´s position towards Israel). If Israel would attack the boats and the USA would not react outraged (and it didn´t) it would lead to... oh no... wait... Hm, I guess there IS no good outcome from this attack for America. But I guess the reason that I am unable to think of a good reason, is because the chip in my head prevents me from seeing the reason.

PS: I didn´t say that America creates no wars... I said America doesn´t create all wars.

Well

I said "proof".. not a tell-tale..

As far as I know there is not one..There are speculations/comments/opinions etc..

But NO PROOF..

These rumors were always with us.. Since the begining of our republic.. Even Seyh Sait rebellion was branded as ´with the help of British´ etc. But there was not any..Same thing was said for Dersim incident (in 1938) as well.. But there was not any.. People should be able to distinguish  the things said by the army generals and politicians for uplifting the nationalist sentiments!!

In the end,  we have had our Kurdish problem which its begining is dating with the begining of our republic (1920s) what is Israel got to with it? where is Israel fit into ´banning Kurdish language of 1980s, emptying thousands of villages etc´?

Apart from that, we are talking about 1/5 , 1/6th people of Turkey here.. I believe it is disrespecting our own Kurds, in generic terms, to think that ´they are so easily led by foreigners and betraying their own country´..

First of all the subject of this topic was not Kurds you again turned it to PKK etc. This is some kind of pen terror. 

Secondly what u ask really don´t matter because i do not respect you at all!

Third, A camp in France, A TV in Denmark and Israeli trainers are strong proofs for the ones who didn´t lose his conscience yet.

And last, i posted three long articles. How did you read those in that short time? Or you give answers before you read the arguments that the other side introduces? Than you must stop to be prejudiced.

Maybe you should also mention the reputation of Zaman, the paper in which one of your articles was published...

Yeah its one of the two best seller english newspapers. Do you want me to post articles in Turkish?

Ahhh ahh...You must stop to talk to him...

What we need is another democratic referandum here, all Turkish citizens should be called on to vote on one or the other of the following choices.

1. Give rebelling Kurds whatever part of Turkia they want, and wish them good luck.

2. Kick all rebelling Kurds into one of the smart European countries, and wish them all good luck.

Whatever majority decides......

I think first voting right is thehandsome´s. Aaa but sorry he is hidden again. Thehandsooooomeee. Stop hiding, log in and vote here...

Thehandsom, or should I call you Sherlock? How would an ordinary person have a proof of a classified government action? This is not a court and we are not in the process of issuing a verdict. Like everyone else, we are discussing matters without being able to access real information. We are just speculating based on results. I am not Napoleon and you are not Winston Churchill. Nothing is expected of this discussion. We just test opinions and try to find explanations to major political affairs. 

Ultimately, we are fighting against the factors that limit free thought and logical inference. These are nationalism, patriotic feelings, racial and cultural identity. Some members defend their nations just like they are supporting their national football teams. Some members have identity problems, they have a problem saying us. They just form the other pole just because the few bad books they read eons ago told them to deny their own culture and embrace another one which would eventually turn them into slaves.

What I know is that there was a migration or exodus of the Sephardie Jews.  The migration started in the late 19th century and peaked following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

Now to know if their grandfathers had a stopover in Ottoman land, I don´t have a clue, it was a little before my time. 

Canada took in nad still takes in, immigrants from many diffrent countries, cultural backrounds and faiths. People have been immigrating to Canada since late 1700´s hundrends early 1800´s hundrens.  So it is bound to have received MANY Jews of diffrent denomination over the years.

And I can tell you is that the Jewish community here in Montreal is very large and thriving.

I asked you proof!!

A simple word..´PROOF´

Your articles are ´suspicions´!! One of them says ´spotted´!! Israel´i agents are spotted!! And you bring it as a proof?? phew..

Kurdish TV incident, possibly that Kurdish TV was established when we banned Kurdish language.

And also you have to know a few things as the fact:

In EU countries, there is a relative freedom of speach as long as you dont take your arm and start shooting people. And Turkey has been notorious to put people in jail because what they believed. Tell me if I am wrong!! can any TURK say that it is a lie?
If you have ideas ..anything..seperation; leaving  etc..it does not matter in the EU... People are not put in jail when they say they are KURDS (just 15 years ago we said there are no kurds and saying I am a kurd was a reason to go to jail!!).

People are not put in jail when they say they are not against IRA.. That is not a crime to put people in jail in EU countries.. You can go and protest about anything in eu countries.. You can carry a poster of anybody in EU countries.. Some of our Kurdish citizens carry Apo´s posters ; they carry green/yellow/red flags (there are some in the uk as well -ANYBODY CAN SAY that they are pkk camps).. That is not a crime in the EU !!! It should not be a crime in anywhere in the world in principle!!
Any country that jails people for these type of things should be ashamed of it..

Of course, when people see those protests on their tv screens, the judgment is ready ´EU is supporting terrorists´..

NO.. As long as they dont take arms to impose their ideas ´ANY IDEA IS ALLOWED´ .

That is how it is supposed to be in Turkey and how it WILL BE  in Turkey in the future...

You are joking!! Right??

So you are saying that ´you believe in foreign involvements for our Kurdish Problem´ without any proof and saying that ´of course ´I wont see any proof because I am an ordinary citizen´.

This is a confession!!

I was right to say that it was all rumors ...

This is the same as being in 1938, living in Istanbul and believing ´foreign involvements in Dersim incident´ while thousands were killed in caves by gassing..

We, years later, have learnt the truth:  THERE WAS NOT...

Soldiers/politicians lied to keep nationalists sentiments up  so that masses will ignore what is going on there..

You believed the people who told you ´we dont have Kurds in Turkey..they are mountain Turks´. The same people, the very same people, told you these ´external elements´  tall stories.

Those people  LIED to you .. Tell me if I am wrong!! 

And about the identity..

YES.. You do have an identity problem!!

The culture/ideas/race/nationalism you  think you are trying to defend is nothing to do with Turkish/Anatolian culture..

You want proof of outside interference....how is this? ....It has developing for quite a while now...Sevres

Thats actually true.

aha, btw, theres no grey zone. Its your imagaination only. It doesnt exist.

Bla bla, let´s keep it back to the topic... the boat thing.

As I mentioned in my "I´m chipped so all I´m saying is what the American´s want"-post I don´t see the logical point in the US being behind the attack on the boats. Actually, it has hurt the US, since it further breaks down the relationship the US has with Turkey (which suck anyway since the whole Iraq thing), and it increases the critique on the US for always supporting Israel no matter what. And the US REALLY didn´t need the critique, since the president over there already received loads of critique for the way he was handling the oil spill.

Now I´m not so naive that I don´t realise that the US has been behind some attacks, and might even have triggered some wars. But the boat thing can only hurt the US. The only reason why the US would make Israel attack the boat, is if the US wanted to lose Turkey as an ally (huh?), and if they wanted to strengthen the position of Palestines in international negotiation, and thus weaken the position of Israel (yes, yet another weaker ally against Iran...makes sense...)

At least make your conspiracy theories logical! Pfff, conspiracy theorist of today have become so lazy.

Oh, by the way, showing a map with different colours doesn´t say a thing. I can make a map of Holland, put a Turkish flag in the middle and say that Turkey is trying to take over my country. That doesn´t make it actual proof.

I again apologize to Alpha and others for misunderstanding them.

One thing to add, Alpha and others, you should learn to distinguish between Zionists and simple Jews (including orthodox).

You are joking ???

I mean what is a map from 1920 and from treaty of Sevres got to do with Our Kurdish problem? 

People who dont  know the difference between the Zionists and Jews and thinking that all Jews are Zionists, are called anti-Semitic "in generic terms". 

You are a hopeless case. If I have to repeat a simple phrase three times just to make you understand the difference between suspicion and proven act of hostility. Excuse me, I have lost you and you have lost me. Don´t expect answers when answer is there for everyone to see.

The PKK attacks have recently increased dramaticaly and this coincided with the tension in the relations with Israel.

This raises question marks since the worsening of the relations have also had consequences on political, economic and cultural levels.

Suspicion as it is understood by any normal person is not a substantiated belied. Yet it is one of the ways we humans shape our thoughts. Conflicts between nations may get worse  when one or both of them is/are suspicious of the other. Similarly, when countries have confidence in one another they have an excellent rapport. This is why the US and Israel are such great friends. Turkey and Israel are also two great friends but this is mostly on paper. Because the US does not have full confidence in Turkey. For over fifty, years and despite all the efforts of the past governments the relations between Turkey is still being declared as getting better when a comparison is made to those between Israel and US.

Read this one carefully: in the international politics, suspicion and confidence are two golden keywords. Why did Saddam lose his head and why was his country invaded? Wasn´t that because of a mere suspicion?

Look!!

Just go back and  check what happened since the Kurdish opening!!

You dont need to be an extra clever to see what has happened and happening!!!

Nationalists blocked the opening; The guy in Imrali is pulling ropes.. Kurdish people is expecting a peaceful solution and with the nationalist sentiments, we are unable to provide it... PKK is there to stay..BDP is there to stay. You have to include them into the peace process. You coming and insisting that ´I dont talk to PKK-that is fine- I dont talk to Kurdish party BDP; I dont listen to NGOs -Kurdish NGOs said : both parties should stop fighting-´ and then IGNORE ALL and say ´it is Israel this time´.

This is a sheer insult to Kurds in Turkey.

The opening has stopped.. Kurdish party is closed.. People came with the opening put in jails.. People came from Iraq were returned back..

The guy in Imrali giving orders as ´I am out  from the negations end of the month´ and the attacks are starting the following day.. 

Where is Israel in this equations?

All above are OUR SHORTCOMINGS..

NO.. Israel is not in this..

This is our problem. And as long as you dont realise that  will stay as our problem ..

You are free to believe the lies!! I told and asked you ´who lied to you; what sort of lies etc´ of course.. You HAVE ignored them.. You dont have face to admit that ´the people who lied to you about the existence of Kurds, keep telling you Kurdish problem is nothing to do with Turkey. It is all foreigners´ 

Of course you will ignore those.. Because it is embarrassing.. 

Believe as much lies as you want That is your short coming..

I wont..

Already the word has come into effect upon most of them, so they do not believe.

Indeed, We have put shackles on their necks, and they are to their chins, so they are with heads [kept] aloft

And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.

And it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Ya-Sin 7-10

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not.

In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

Baqarah, 6-12

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

Al Ma´idah, 32

You demand a simple answer and you stray out of the topic when presented with one. I would like to maintain my focus on your question and I think I have answered it quite well...

And thus We have placed within every city the greatest of its criminals to conspire therein. But they conspire not except against themselves, and they perceive [it] not.

Al - An´am, 123

Thanks for quoting verses from The Quran. Now the door is swinging open for all other believers to quote verses from their own holy books.

I think verses from the Quran can be used to shape the internal and external affairs of a community. Depending on the size of that community, religious rules can become the guideline to run an entire country. Nevertheless, holy books must not be used to justify political events. We have international rules fulfilling that function. You know people are divided into religious groups each containing billions of believers. If you want to solve the problem in the Middle East according to the rules of Islam, then they will push the rules of the Old Testament, the Christian bystanders meanwhile interprete the happening according to the rules stated in the Bible. Isn´t this already what is happening?

I wouldn´t want a Jew judge by the rules in his Old Testament and I wouldn´t judge him according to the rules of Islam. Their book is for them and ours is for us. This is what the prophet of Islam said. (Although his deeds on record are not very much in line with this statement.)

These are just for the one who keeps asking for proofs.

In order he does not believe although everything is very clear. 

Is this the same France who once lured the Anatolian Armenians into the shit hole. They certainly build fantastic Memorial Cemeteries for those Armenians, nowadays.

Well, all I can say is that Kurds seem to have very dependable allies...Good luck !

We know the difference very well, we dont call them simple Jews...we call them the Jewish friends..

I already told you that THERE IS NO PROOF..

Even Vineyards accepts that there is no proof which a normal citizen can see..

There are many clubs/associations etc  around here.. When you go in there, it is like being in a camp.. Posters of Apo, pkk flags etc are everywhere.. They arrange seminars, they even collect money..

But you can not come up and say ´UK is supporting PKK and here are the camps´ 

People will laugh at you!!  

what a pity

i really expected that you may see the truths that time...

Anyway, no need to lose more time with a person like you who have too many free times.

Now i must go to work to destroy your leaders

Well, it was time for you to go back to your verses of quran anyway..

I simply asked you to show me the proof..Just simply!!

YOU are UNABLE to show any.. which I knew you could not...

Oeince, please, when you quote Koran verses, can you also post your comments to them? I for instance need to know the meaning and purpose of the quoted verses. Thank you.

Dear Lemon,

As you may read, thehandsom keeps asking for proofs about the support of foreign countries to the PKK.

I posted three articles those display the foreign support to PKK which are not suspects but the facts.

One of them is about a PKK camp in France that is open for fifteen years, the other is about the propaganda TV of the PKK that is being broadcasted from Denmark and the last one is about Israeli Officials who train the PKK militants. It was possible to widen the examples but I didn’t want to bore people with long articles.

However, thehandsom claims that those facts are not proofs. Although most probably he didn’t read them he writes his ideas with capital letters with his usual ugly writing style. That is why, I quoted from the Quran to say; even if I give the Sun to one of his hand and the Moon to the other one as a proof he would not still believe. These verses are mostly about the ones who do not believe the realities regardless how much clear are those. Also I added some verses about not to create defeatism in the world. These were about the PKK and the main topic of this thread, Israel.

BTW, I know there are a lot of non – Muslims in that forum. I respect their beliefs either. I addressed the Quran in order I think that thehandsom is Muslim. I wanted to remind him the holy books sentences about his approaches.

I hope those explanations would be useful for you.

As i told before, i am trying to write people as they deserve.

Here is a respectful study about ethno-linguistic structures of the world. 

I think the ones who seek the truth rather than distorting the facts would find intersting information in it about the ethno-linguistic structure of the world and Turkey as well.

World: http://www.ethnologue.com/home.asp

Turkey: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=TRA

I think explained to you but somehow you dont want to understand..

The camp in France is obviously not a camp!! If it was Turkey would call our ambassador you believe me on that .. I also gave you examples from the UK. Those clubs/organizations etc are not considered as terrorist camps.. I also explained why by saying that ´in the west, under normal circumstances, if you dont take a pistol and shoot people, you can not shut those places and you can not jail those people!!!!´ 

Yes, there are clubs here in the uk.. Posters are everywhere.. PKK flags are everywhere in those clubs.. But so what?

They are not called camps!! Of course you used to see Kurdish politicians being jailed. And you want the same thing to be done in France, Germany, UK etc..

But they will NOT. They can not!! They will violate their basic values if they do.. Because when you jail politicians because they speak Kurdish, you think it is normal.. But it is not... When you see people being jailed because they are holding terrorists posters. But in the west, you can hold anybody´s poster as long as you dont switch to violence..

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE UNABLE TO GRASP!!

So I am still waiting for the PROOF  here.. 

But instead of trying to get milk from a bull, just go and read something about our Kurdish Problem..

BTW.. I did not know those verses were for me.. But sorry.. I passed that stage of my life... You wont make me believe to some texts written over 1000 years ago.. 

I certainly know what a camp is and what is not. I have been in many EU countries and have seen what you wrote. But the camp that is mantioned on the article that u did not read is a camp where gunned militants are being trained. I was seen the picture of there, its not in the city centre, its located among mountains. 

I also certainly know the meetings in EU countries. I also know the amount of money that flow to PKK from these meetings. I know how Militants ask for money to Kurdish people. "The Party is in a huge war we need money" right?

I also know how you took sattle permissions from EU countries and also from Canada and USA. 

As i told you even if i give you the Sun you do not believe. Even you know the truth you do not declare it. Because you do not seek the truth you just look for support to your factionist ideas. That is why lying, distorting facts, insulting etc. Everything is allowable to reach your aim.

Why do you keep to use capital letters and insultive words? Those just make you more untrustable. Those just display your ugly style.

BTW What about Israeli Officials in Iraq and Roj TV in Denmark?

We both know that the PKK is just the fork of foreign secret services. But as i told you, this is the last flutters. We come to the end.

No, I"m not the jokester here. The fact of the matter is the maps are still in living memory. The policies used then, and the parties, are much the same today. The tactic, Divide and Rule have been used for thousands of years. Certain areas are of strategic importance, and have been for thousands of years....that´s a fact, just study a little history.

I posted this before...The New Middle East

...........so who or what...I don´t know, but it sure looks like something is up

Tensions between PKK and Turkey have risen many times in the past, without Israeli and Turkish relationship changing at all. Two incidents occuring in a relatively short period doesn´t make them related. Something has to happen more than once for it to be related. We didn´t see Israeli´s kill people on boats in the past.

If you still think the two events are related... then hear this. I used to go to Kusadasi a lot... one year I was a bit fed up, and I went to Marmaris. That year a bombing happened in Kusadasi. In the exact same two weeks that I was in Marmaris (and usually I would be in Kusadasi at the time) The next year, my plan was to go to Marmaris again. But due to circumstances, I had to change my plans and I went to Kusadasi again. In the two weeks that I was in Kusadasi, a bus got bombed in Marmaris. Both bombs happened in dolmuses that drove the routes that I would take on a daily base.

I seem to avoid bombs... conspiracy or not?

Off

I did investigate a bit further.. There seems to be a video here . But the translation I got from a French person  is not saying what is being mentioned in the Turkish source!!

I even asked further investigation in google in French..And the result is the same!! No mentioning of ´armed terrorists training in the camps´. The guy is obviously a Kurdish/PKK supporter and trying put pressure onto French government..  

Then I checked some sources in french thinking that I can get a decent translation with google.. It seems to me that is what he said at that particular day (from his webs site) :

http://jose-bove.eu/index.php?post/2010/03/03/Libérez-nos-amis-Kurdes

And its translation is according to google is:..

Since 1987, tens of thousands of Kurds, including the 4,000 villages have been destroyed by Turkish troops have been moved. Many of them lost, victims of political repression and torture in Turkish prisons arrived in Europe (see AI report, the European Court of Human Rights, Rights, and the Commissioner of Human Rights and Refugees of the United Nations ...) It is in this context that the fiercely anti-terrorist sections in Europe these days have arrested 93 people including 11 in France. They were remanded in custody. The reason for their arrest remains unknown. After five days of police custody, seven of them have been indicted and placed in custody in Paris. Among them, Ahmed Dogan, a French citizen, anthropologist and journalist, resident in Mas Razali (Pierrefiche of Larzac), organizes over 10 years, so perfectly legal and well known, the days of discussion with cultural associations, days are attended by academics and associations and in the greater transparency. Ali is very famous for his involvement with the defenders of Human rights and against torture in Turkey.

So I am a bit spectacle about it.. It is a tad bit suspicious.. A person who is trying make PKK sympathetic would surely know "a terrorist camp, giving armed training to terrorists in the middle of France" is not the best way of gaining sympathy!!

I also mentioned something about Roj tv and the news ´some retired Israeli army persons SPOTTED etc´..in previous threads.

So I still say the same thing: We have heard people talking about this ´elusive support from  the west for terrorism´  since 1980s..

Kenan Evren used to say ´Dis Mihrak´ -External centers-

So.. The proof would be great.. Anyway.. This is getting boring now..

Seems you dont know how to read. 

A PKK supporter EU MP declares that there is an armed training camp in Larzac 1 KM away from the French army. You do not even believe the PKK symphatisan?

As you say, Phew 

Than listen and watch...

http://www.beyazgazete.com/video/2010/03/13/fransa-dan-pkk-itirafi-atv.html

Just read above..

I believe the guy is a PKK/Kurdish supporter.. And he is trying to show PKK symphathetic.

And saying that ´A terrorist organization is being trained with arms in France´ wont go very well with public.. The MP is trying to get that Kurdish guy out of prison.. "He was running a terrorist camp and they were training armed militants" will be a very stupid comment if you are trying to help the guy.. yes?

I will really investigate further if you give the source in French!! Because the sources I am able to see about this is not same as translated into Turkish. Even a french person is unable to see and find the way it is being mentioned in Turkish media..

So nothing has changed I am a fraid..

OK I am giving up. I confess:

Israel is the land of angels. They stay away from other people´s business and mind their own business. They don´t have a nationalist government in power and its people are fond of singing We Are The World, We Are he Children faithful to the original lyrics (see youtube).

They are not backing the Kurds and you know what; they love those nasty Palestinians. There is no blockade in Ghazza. All that they are doing is teaching Ghazzans a lesson to help them to become better humans.

They did not kill the people on MV Blue Marmara, stray bullets found the victims perchance. Israeli soldiers attacked that boat in the international waters to find a chance to defend themselves. As a manifestation of how excellent they are defensively they crushed the skull of one of the victims by firing 5 shots from short distance.

I wrote to European Parliament for the record of the press meeting.

Lets see if they provide me the record or not.

Will you declare that you are a liar if they send?

BTW the links you send are totally unrelevent to the news i sent.

The news is about a press meeting on the 13th of March in European Parliament in Strasbourg.

I think Israel is too busy blocking Gaza and messing around there to go and attack Turkish soldiers through PKK. Like I said in another thread, there are grey areas. Saying Israel is not connected to PKK, is not the same as saying that Israel is not oppressing Palestinians. Saying that Israel is doing horrible things against Palestinians, is not the same as saying that Palestinians are angels (I will not forget the many bus bombings I saw on the news, and people from the older generation will never forget Munich). Saying that Israel is doing bad things, is also not the same as saying that they are creating a second holocaust, or the same as saying that the holocaust never happened.

Bah, I´m so disappointed at the lack of logical reasoning that people use. Why do you have to create linkages with so little proof? If you look for a link, and THEN for the proof, you will always find little clues. If you say "Hi, barba_mama is a supporter of PKK", you can also find vague proof for this. Logical thinkig is first having the question, then finding the answer through proof. Conspiracy theorist have the answer, and then find proof that will only confirm their answer (instead of looking for evidence that can also deny it.)

Ha ha

You have made my day with this post!!

The logic here is : "Isreal´s cruelty is indexed to my "fantasies", if you are not accepting my fantasies then you are a supporter of Israel and her actions".  

Do you have more of this?  

Barba and thehandsom. I suggest that you should go and get a dictionary to look up the exact meaning of suspicion and explain to me the role of suspicion in the US invasion of Iraq and the execution of their legitimate leader.

Legally, politically and military wise, suspicion is a step towards subsequent procedural actions. The police may apprehend you on the basis of suspicion, a judge may arrest you on the same ground. Although your verdict is not given, you may have a hard time trying to defend yourself. All of this may happen to you on the ground of mere suspicion.

Likewise governments tend to keep vital information confidential. Other governments may become suspicious of them and ask for an explanation. The West is currently suspicious of Iran´s nuclear program although the latter repeatedly wowed that they are seeking to use that technology for non-military purposes. Turkey and Brazil acted as moderator and persuaded Iran to deliver their uranium in exchange of nuclear power plant grade uranium. The aforementioned parties considered this as a confidence boosting step but guess what the West would not be satisfied and put pressure on the moderators instead. Iran is being threatened by military action and what is the reason here: suspicion. Has it been substantiated? No it is mere suspicion. Probably, much the same as the unsubstantiated suspicion over Iraq.

Well, my wise guys, now answer my question. All the civilized world can capitalize on their suspicions killing tens of thousands of people if need be but I can not link actions together and develop a suspicion.

I am sorry I misunderstood you. You are doing this to set a new Guiness world record as the thickest person on the planet. Wow, man, I can post you a few more difficult texts to make your reactions look real.

I was really serious!! 

It was one of the funniest things I have had since I woke up!!

I mean I M DEAD SERIOUS.. Dont you see how childish and how funny it is?

I mean ´if you dont believe my FANTASIES YOU are supporter of Israel´. 

Dont you see that? 

Please post more.. I am really having a boring day here..

The suspecion for Iran comes from the following...

1) Iran has imported the materials required to make nuclear weapons.

2) Iranian scientist have been caught spying in foreign universities and research centres, at the nuclear deparments (including a Dutch university)

3) Iran has SAID itself that it is going to "whipe out" Israel... you can´t whipe out a whole country with a cat-fight.

So, what are the actual facts that link Israel to PKK, instead of hear-say and vague camps in France? (I don´t know why a French camp was brought into this, but hey, I´m showing that I read the thread ) And like I said before, hear-say doesn´t count. I can claim here that the Turkish government has plans to take over the world, through Koç holdings, but my words don´t count as proof. Even though I´m a scientist

America invaded Iraq after making everyone believe that Iraq has chemical weapons in their arsenal. You know what happened later on. There are indeed fabricated news making the headlines, at least one of the major players must now be considered as a proven fabricator... Need I say more?

Saçmalardan seçmeler...What do you expect? Do you want them to declare they support PKK? Of course they will do it in secrecy since they declared it as terrorist organization. Every people in that region knows that US and zionist regime providing pkk and pejak with training equipments and weapons, many Turkish officials and Iranian officials mentioned these many times, as far as i know an American journalist wrote this in his column. If not enough terrorist leader admitted that many countries in EU and US & Israel support pkk directly or indirectly, in case you prefer to believe in terrorist. It is very well known that mossad was training Kurds since 1966. And Barba do you know that a terrorist who had trained in pkk camping in Liempde in the Netherlands, carried out the bombing in Ulus/Ankara, caused 12 civilians killed and 70 people wounded...

I still wait answer from Bove or European Parliament or the Greens. But didnt recieve an answer yet. Probably they they give rein to holidays.

Weather they answer or not, the news about the PKK camp that is open for 15 years where gunned militants are being trained in Larzac, 1 KM away from the French army brench is true. That news took place at least 10 national TV’s or newspapers and no confutation was made to it.

I am sure the camp in Larzac is not the only one in Europe, I am sure Israeli Officers train PKK militants in Northern Iraq, I am sure foreign intelligence services use PKK for their bloody foriegn policy purposes, I am sure the PKK is just a fork and it doesnt represent and care about Kurds but just their profits. I am sure Turkey is changing positiveley and developing rapidly and I am sure the PKK is at the end of the road. 

Well

Just rumours and hear-says and a huge imagination..

So unbelievable to see people´s logic: You are saying something you believe..that is fine but where is the proof?.. the answer is : you wont see the proof because it is top secret... But how did you believe it in the first place? .. 

It really is unbelievable!! 

Of course, when you take these imaginations and rumours out of arguments, the bare truths is just waiting to hit hard: How on earth we could not finish this war? 

The stake is high because, in the end, our army is 800.000 almighty army.. I just learnt that PKK is having only 1500 terrorists in our borders.. They have the upper hand.. When you look at it, it is like they are chasing us

As It was mentioned Ahmet Altan´s column (http://www.taraf.com.tr/ahmet-altan/makale-altust.htm : He says they are not ambushing a squad , they are going and attacking the army stations, battalions, elite commando brigades. Each time, they are causing damage and leaving.. It looks like it is not the army chasing PKK, PKK is chasing the army..

When you take out the these so secret/imaginative/no proof hear-says there is a huge truth you have to face. And that is a shocking for some people.. No wonder why they keep hanging of these ´so secret they can not even see things´ without any proof..

To Vineyards. what you say about America is what I see happening here with the PKK/Israel thing. I remember the "proof" that Powell gave for the weapons in Iraq. He had a very vague Powerpoint presentation, that showed weapons of mass distruction. Only, the weapons where two black dots! How is that proof? It wasn´t clear at all that they were weapons, but Powell can talk so well. He backed up this wonnnnnderfulll map with statements that he had "secret documents" that ofcourse, he couldn´t share with us, because they were secret, that would actually proof the existence of the weapons. Reminds me of the vague statements made on here sometimes

To Armegon. Yes, I remember the camp in Holland. It was rolled up with great police force. The action was all over the news. I think the mistake you make in your logic is the difference between having supporters IN a country, and having the support OF a country (in the form of government). I am 100% sure that there are PKK supporters in Holland! Any country that has a large enough population of Turkish Kurds has this problem. However, this is not the same as the government supporting PKK. Otherwise the Dutch police wouldn´t have put so much money and effort in finding out where the PKK camp was, and they would never have closed it, and they wouldn´t have locked up everybody who was in the camp.

To oeince. You say that you are sure that Israeli´s train PKK soldiers in the North... WHY are you sure? HOW can you be sure? Being sure because "everybody there" is also sure is not a reason. Then tell me why they are so sure... Are there pictures of Israeli´s in that region? Are there tapped phone conversations? Maybe some tracked down money transfers between PKK people and Israeli´s?

Barba_Mama why are you trying your best not to understand me:

I say there is suspicion over ..... I have never said there is the proof of. Powell made people believe that there was proof on file whereas all he had was mere unsubstantiated suspicion. He and the majority of the executionary body in the US took action based on that suspicion acting as if and officially declaring that they had convincing evidence.

I repeat what I said, there is a suspicion at present. I am not in favour of taking action based on that suspicion. I just gave those examples to show how other people use mere suspicion as a basis for such large scale military interventions.

You and thehandsom will eventually make me mad. Try to focus on the meaning of suspicion. Don´t you ever become suspicious of people or institutions? Do you trust people unconditionally? Aren´t we a bit picky when it comes to whom we should trust? Do we need hard proof for becoming suspicious of someone? Don´t we look for signs or clues and lose confidence on seeing even the traces of improper trait?

I am suspicious because I have something to lose. I am directly affected by the lack of security in this country. I have a right to become suspicious and take action to protect myself in the face of mounting suspicion? I start by establishing parallelisms and investigating them. My suspicion can be pointless but I had better be safe than sorry.

The other party (Israel) has been canceling touristic tours, hostile statements targeting the leaders of the two countries come one after another. That shows they are suspicious of Turkey or its leadership too. They have even officially declared this if my memory is not fooling me. 

There is a perfect climate fostering susipicions and feelings of waryness.

Dear Barba, you made me lough i hope god makes you lough too! 

So you you arrayed us ha!!!  Lets see what´s my share? Mmmm ok!  Sweet heart, I will answer you on the further hours of the night but i need some free time now. Just your style is relly funny. I could not stop myself to post that...Barba, am i Atos or Portos or Aramis now? I think i am Aramis in order that you referred me the last. Barbaaaa, can i be Portos next time? Please, please pleaseeee 

Thats really funny..Cute girl...

To Barba....

You obviously did not read the link I posted about the New Middle East...

Here are some excerpts to make things easier...

"The term “New Middle East” was introduced to the world in June 2006 in Tel Aviv by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (who was credited by the Western media for coining the term) in replacement of the older and more imposing term, the “Greater Middle East.”

"This announcement was a confirmation of an Anglo-American-Israeli “military roadmap” in the Middle East. This project, which has been in the  planning stages for several years, consists in creating an arc of instability, chaos, and violence extending from Lebanon, Palestine, and Syria to Iraq, the Persian Gulf, Iran, and the borders of NATO-garrisoned Afghanistan."

"Moreover, it is worth noting that the subject of the Armenian Genocide is being politicized and stimulated in Europe to offend Turkey"

Just do a Control F and put Turkey in the query box and you will be amazed how many times Turkey is mentioned. 

Barba, do not try to fool me please, more or less i know the situation in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is one of the main country who support and protect these terrorists. I do know that how pkk terrorists are racketeering and threatening the Turkish people there. There are lots of pkk bureaus in the Netherlands which is masked as Kurdish culture centers or with other names when you go inside everywhere is covered with the posters of terrorist leader, these bureaus are acting as terrorist collecting centers. In Dutch parliament there are Ducth politicians who protect them intensely, when one ask about these bureaus, they start to talk about human-rights, no one can touch them in the Netherlands such a heaven for pkk terrorists, you know there is always way to legalize something...

Let me touch on some events in the close Turkish history.

PKK attacks increase dramaicly in the beginnin of 90´s

1st gulf war. Turkey played a significant role. Terrorism decreased.

Turgut Ozal, the first civil president of Turkey died suspeciously in 93

Ugur Mumcu has been murdered with a bombed assassination, he was dealing with Israel-PKK relations before 

Adnan Kahveci and died in a traffic accident in a non-opened empty road. He was the finance ministre and a respected politician, he was expected to be the prime ministre 

Eşref Bitlis, the gendarme general commender died in a helicopter accident. He was a respected general who manage the fights with the PKK.

All these suspicious deaths occured in one year time.

Than later, extrem religious Necmettin Erbakan won the general elections. He has been signed the biggest gun and army IT agreement with Israel just before 28 February post modern coup. After 28 February, simultanously with the agreements with Israel PKK took the weapons away. 

White House declared their new Middle East policy in 98.

Apo, the leader of PKK, has been given to Turkish secret service in Kenya by another secret service. PKK didn´t take their guns in that dramatic process for themselves.

The nationalist party used to want to hang him most who was in the goverment those days.However capital punishment has been cancelled by them just after Apo has been given to Turkey. He hasnt been hanged. 

Economic crises begin in Turkey. Turkey losed 1/4th of her wealth

9/11

Ocuupancy of Afghanistan. Turkey played a significant role in "peace" power.

Ak Party won the elections

2nd gulf war. Turkey didnt send soldiers and didnt let her lands to be used! 

Than everything changed

Caryall was weared to Turkish soldiers heads.

Closing court was opened for AK Party

Street demonstrations began. Soldier was being called to do coup. The communuty got splited. Erdoğan was a powerful leader. The party didnt get closed. Ergenekon operations began. The generals of the era got prisoned as criminals of coup plans.

Bombings began again by PKK.

Davos events

Terrorism dramaticly increased again.

And flotilla atack. Same day an attack to Navy which is located just accross Israel.  

The most significant terrorist attacks are being performed

So i agree, Turkey hasnt been governed well even for about 200 years. The western affects were incredible. Even when the relocation was made the chif of defence was German and Turkey was being governed by Ittihat and Terakki which is Germanophile. Turkey took place with Germany in the first world war etc.

Soldiers always mentioned themselves as the owners of the country and they tried to solve everything with power. That increased and complexed the problems.

Turkeys 200 years destiny is being changing. Turkey is being governed by civilians who try to solve problems with democratization. Turkey began to make and implement its own policies.  

Kurdish opening is being made.

And PKK increases its attacks to a level which noone witnessed before.

Now tell me am i right or not to be sure of that PKK is the fork of secret services.

Now tell me am i suspicious or all those are related facts?

Now tell me Why???

And still no proof (no, not to you V, I understand you only have suspecions)

PKK is an illegal terrorist organization in Holland, who "we" actively try to battle within our borders. Whatever happens in Turkey is your business. How is the Dutch government protecting PKK? If you are talking about the Kurdish people who live here. Yes, if you are a non-violent person, not connected to PKK, you are allowed to live in Holland as a Kurdish person. Shocking isn´t it. You can even get political asylum. Some Kurds got that when they were almost thrown in jail in Turkey for, for example, publishing stuff in Kurdish (back when Kurdish was still banned). However, when the Turkish state or the Dutch state can proof that there is a PKK connection the people are handed over to Turkey to be locked up.

Dear BM,

I appreciate your efforts to understand the events in Turkey.

However, i dont think that you understand or i could explain the soul of events. It seems like you repeat words by rote. And if we try to make those correspondences to contrubute the solutions of problems, that style don´t help it at all.

Why do you think that would be shocking for me?

I live together with 10 millions Kurds and i am totally happy with that. I have many Kurdish close friends. And i am not unique. Everyone normal person in Turkey is like me.

The matter is terrorism. Which is not mostly about Kurds.

Look, I know you are an educated guy, and this makes your statements even more strange to me. There was a trainingcamp in Holland for the PKK, just like there are MANY trainingcamps in Turkey. That a trainingcamp is present in a country, does not mean that such an organisation is backed up by the government there. I think it´s wrong to say that the Dutch government is backing up PKK, because we are clearly working together with the Turkish government (as well as German and others) to try and battle PKK.

I know enough about Turkey and its internal politics to say this. I also know enough about my own country and its internal politics to make this statement. I´m sick of people in this thread making statements without any hint of proof, and saying that it´s either "top-secret" or that I just don´t understand it because I´m not from Turkey or because I´m from the West. I´m critical, that´s all. If you can´t convince me in the slightest bit that what you say MIGHT be true, than perhaps it´s not my knowledge that is bad, it´s just your arguments that are insufficient.

I agree with many points you mention above.. I tried to bolden the points I agree..

But when it comes to how all those events are ralated to PKK attacks are abit ´thin and weak´ and it also proves that you have not been following the events!!

1990s were the times when the most intense fighting happened in Turkey. It was  the times Jitem killed thousands of Kurds by just picking them up from the streets from their homes etc and then torturing and killing them.. It was also the times when it looked like "PKK can be defeated".

I dont want to go into details of the past events that much.. But just look at the last couple of months.. The terror was screaming ´I am coming´. Just read that post:

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_47503

The government reacted by cracking down on the Kurdish Communities Union, or KCK, the alleged urban wing of the terrorist organization. Even dozens of elected mayors in the Southeast were arrested by the police, which was clearly a mistake. The PKK responded with more violence, and that is how we got here.

It is clearly NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL. Why should it be? It was not Israel arrested those Kurdish politicians.. It was not israel stopped the Kurdish opening?

Those politicians were arrested by the state.. Kurdish openning was stopped by the nationalists (I hope temporarily) !!

And Apo was saying way before that the he is going to pull out end of that month-just before the attacks starting- Everybody who knows the politics, knew that it was coming!!And no Israel-ships-flotills were in the horizon at the time people realised the attacks were going to start!! They say that the first attack (at the same day of Israel-ships incident) was planned long long before..

Because , you were told year after year that ´it is all terrorism and it is all foreign elements´ you are instinctly looking at the countries that you can blame when there is an incident. Not only you personally.. Some papers/politicians/army generals are doing that too..

I know it is difficult to accept that.. Because, if you do, it will be like your life jacket is

taken away.. It was the excuse for many many years for the failures..

The good news is, we NOW know that our Kurdish problem is our INTERNAL problem. So instead of blaming the others, we are looking for a solution...And "The Kurdish opening" is the sole PROOF of it. (that also explains why most Turkish nationalists are against it.. Because, years after years they said -ah it is terrorism only and it is all foreign involvement- If it was true, WHY would there be an opening?)

I just saw Armegon´s post about Netherland PKK camp disguising themselves as cultural centers. That was what I was trying to say the other day : In Turkey, we are almost living in a world of our own.. People in other countries like netherland,uk,france etc have something and they call it democracy. In those set of codes, people, as long as they dont take arms into their hands to force their ideas, have some rights.. For example.. You can have a tshirt with  Bobby Sands printed at the fornt (He is an Irish terrorist died on hunger strike). They can form a club/cultural center etc and praise him and IRA.

You can not put that person into jail!! Because that person has some (human) rights. But in Turkey, you can!! how? well.. Clearly, when people/state officials in Turkey, talking about ´human rights´,  definetely it is not the same ´human rights´ in other countries!! 

And when you say that but there is only one type of ´human rights´ and then those guys go: ´I dont want these human rights; your human rights are used to legalize terrorism; i dont want your democracy etc´

But in the end, we are not North Korea. We can be like them by isolating ourselves but we want to be in europe, we want to be the leading country in the middle east etc.. 

What you have to understand is that while a PKK training camp is considered to be  terorist camp by Turkia, the Dutch - while appearing to agree the Turkish opinion in public forums - underhandedly support PKK activities on the assumption that PKK is an organisation of freedom fighters.

If what I said is not true, it would have been logical to expect Dutch authorities to clamp down on PKK terorist camps and deport inhabitants to Turkia; there are many international agreements which require their cooperation with Turkia. We obviously want our terorists in our own mountains.

What the Dutch forget is that teror and terorism is a two edged knife; very dangerous to play with. There can not be good terorists and bad terorists. It can happen to them as well, making them sorry for this clowning in their past.

Just like they sided with Serb terorists in Sreberenitsa in the past, they are covertly chosing to side with Kurdish terorists now. If the worst comes, they will start crying and claiming it was all a mistake.

... Sorry, but I don´t understand the previous post. The camp was run over by a Dutch police force. And with "trainingcamp" I don´t mean something like running-tracks and high tech equipment. It was a bunch of people talking to eachother in tents, and a renovated farm-building. There were no actual guns. The camp was located on a remote camping in a wooded area, which everybody is allowed to rent. I guess the PKK people chose it because it is so remote and low key. Almost all of the people arrested there were prosecuted, however one of the arrests made on that day (at a different location) was not prosecuted. It had to do with some legal stuff. The immagration service wanted to prosecute him, but there was lack of evidence that he was actually the man that they arrested in the first place. On that day arrests were made at the camp, and 10 houses around Holland were ran over that day. Two of which had nothing suspicious in them Whoopsy!

...so what was it exactly that the Dutch police or government did wrong?

Oh yeah, and what has this to do with the ignorant remark that the killings on the boat were like the holocaust? I think there is to much talk about Holland on this forum about Turkey. I guess it has something to do with me being Dutch, because everytime I open my mouth a Dutch-bashing begins.

interesting how the thread about the holocaust changed into the dutch thread..sorry nothing personally against Dutchthey really put some effort in printing leaflets against 2nd world war

The story of TC:

"interesting how the thread about the ______________ (Insert Topic) changed into the _______________ (Insert Topic) thread"

No one can prove these suspicious deaths were assassinations or not. Only the assessors know that and they never tell the truth. That is why strategic thinking is like completing a 10000 pieces puzzle. You have to know the history, you have to know the political and sociological trends of the societies who are involved in that event. You have to know the political and economical expectations of those societies who are a part of a social event. And most important, one needs acumen and conscience to fulfil the missing points. So if one keeps asking for proofs of social events s/he does not know the structure of the social events or s/he keeps asking for that just to refute the other side’s ideas and dictate his/her own ideas. These ones generally don’t seek the truth and have conscience problems. They mostly have hidden agendas and hidden aims. They don’t talk for the solution of the problem they rather look for supports to their hidden aims. Those people are generally opportunists and every single event is grablable for them to reach their aims. 

So the biggest problem between us and them is that trust problem. I don’t trust that ones who keeps asking for proof wants to be a part of the solution but deepen them and reach their aims.

Coming to PKK terror.  Anyone who don’t blame terrorism, regardless the ethnicity or religion of those terrorist, exactly losed their conscience. Terrorism uses different arguments in different times. Today it can be Kurdish problem, tomorrow Christianity etc. Whatever they provoke, it is just a tool for them to reach their bloody aims. Terrorists never represent an ethnic group or religion. They just use those figures to convince the members of those groups and acquire militants. Such as Al Qaida uses Islamic figures for their bloody aims but they never represent Islam.

So if one wants to be trustable s/he has to blame terrorism and stop trying to justfy it!

PKK terror and Kurdish society’s problems are definitely different issues. Even as a Turkish I have many social problems in Turkey. Such as covered girls still cannot enter the universities although that is their basic human rights. Second examples; thousands of left wingers or right wingers have been killed especially in coup eras. But none of those groups take their guns and run the mountains to use terrorism for the solution of their problems. Problems are not solved in a community in one day. But sooner or later those matters are solved in political process. Terrorism never solves the problems but deepens them. That is why the ones who are fed by problems use terrorism!

Kurdish society also took their negative shares of anti-democratic eras of Turkey. Language bans, identity matters are the main ones. Although it’s provoked and enlarged by terrorists, a lot of Kurdish people are killed because of their ideas. Just like the killed and tortured left wingers and right wingers. We judge coup soldiers because of those anti democratic actions.

At that point foreign secret services involvement on the problem comes out. Secret services are always opportunists and they have no ethics at all. Whatever is profitable for them, can be used. So in order the anti democratic acts create a discomfort in the society, the secret services use that as a potential to create a real chaos. They use all kinds of disinformation to reach their aim. That is why you can see many people who repeat those secret services disinformation as the facts. Thehandsome in that forum does that a lot.  Such as so called burned villages lie is the main ones of those. Even in the most antidemocratic eras none of Turkish Governments grated innocent groups.  Those disinformation are just made to deepen the problem and widen the opportunities of creating possible militants and sympathisers. 

But why mainly Israel and USA and also European and different secret services support terrorism? The sources of the west are decreasing. The power balance is shifting from west to east. That is why USA’s policy is to locate in the east. That is the main reason of Greater Middle East Project. We must also bear in our minds of Israel’s extreme religious policies and their effect power in USA’s policies. Turkey plays a significant role in that region and an important regional player. So Turkey has roles on that plan. If Turkey plays the role that Israel and US wants, terrorism decreases and if Turkey don’t meet their expectations than terrorism increases to dramatic levels. US and Israel use terrorism as a tool to impose their policies to Turkish Governments.  The Governments who don’t want to lose their rulership conform those pressures and accept the roles that US and Israel wants. And when Turkey accepts its role terrorism decreases. Referring the close history of Turkey, it is clearly seen. Also everyone knows the expense fights. It is incredible. Even the governments who has tax incomes can’t effort it and finds debts to financing of it. So how a terrorist group can finance it without foreign countries support? It’s impossible. Although sympathisers contribute PKK financially, the total of individual’s contributions cannot even be enough for one month’s feed and harbouring expenses of terrorists.

The biggest reason of increment of terrorism nowadays is, Turkish governments incepting of the role that US and Israel wants! Turkey extirpates foreign services men from deeper state. Turkey plans and implements its own policies. Turkey plays an opponent role if US and Israel’s policies are not acceptable for them. That is why terrorism increases.

If PKK was caring Kurdish people just a little bit, they would support the Kurdish initiative. But they increase their attacks to sabotage that process. Because they are managed by foreign secret services.  And, That is all! 

But Turkey is being changing. Turkey will go on to implement its own policies. Whatever we pay for the solution of terrorism, it will be solute. Just wait and see! 

And choose your side! Do you support terrorism or the solution?

If a close person dies of drugs or in a bombing act or kidnapped they will understand you...

For goverments, if the terrorists they support use the guns they provide to kill their own citizens, they will understand you.

Terrorism has no ethics. 

Well, it was not exactly your fault - is it ?.....you need not be over ashamed of being Dutch !

I guess this is an equivocal statement.

Barba_Mama is a Dutch citizen and she is one of the valuable contributors of this site. I can´t understand the reason of this recent anti-Dutch sentiment. I can understand the difference in mind sets which lead to different interpretations of certain matters. Why do we take the time and post here? We are seeking to understand one another and to converge as much as possible.

My previous post was ment for Alpha, so I would like to get an answer to that. What did the Dutch government do wrong with the PKK camp? Please read my previous post, where I shortly explain what the camp was (no guns, etc.) and what the Dutch government did. Tell me, how my government is supporting the PKK in this case, and how it didn´t deal with the situation in the correct way?

This is getting increasingly boring actually..But for the sake of looking for the truth:

- Terrorism is not an entity itself..Terrorism is the result of a social/economic/political dissatisfaction. Specially if the people who are not satisfied, can not express themselves the other ways(in the parties; in the parliaments etc) ..(There were over 50 groups in Turkey before 1980s that openly declared the armed struggle was the means they will use.. Many of them can be categorized as terrorists but only one group, Turkish Communist Party, had help from Soviets. And they were even not committed fully into armed struggle. None of the others had any foreign help agencies etc.)

- For the fantasists, I kept asking if them to show any proof!! was there a single proof? A HUGE NO.. I suspected the camp in Holland can be a camp but even it turned out to be not a camp at all.. The camp in France..? I can not see anything there!! With the way our fantasists definition, all these clubs/cultural organizations in all over Europe can be considered as camp.. But they are not!! so what do we have here after all those discussions? just fantasies..suspicions!! (I also explained "why getting rid of ´foreign elements´ out of discussion is so difficult for generations who are brain washed with those excuses decay after decay") ... In the end our entire army is fighting with terrorists for last 30 years and they are still up and fighting there..

-In the end WE HAVE A KURDISH PROBLEM in Turkey..And considering the support for the terrorists is HUGE (Kurdish party getting 1/3 of the votes from Kurds), a solution has to be developed for Kurdish problem+ PKK. You can not separate them now..There is no solution.

- I also explained in my numerous posts about those 17.000 deaths/ burning villages/ forcing people out/ all those cases went to EU Human Rights courts/ children killed etc.. Without taking all those into consideration when talking about the Kurdish problem will NOT have any credibility..

-I also explained about the reasons of the latest surge of PKK attacks.. If I am not wrong, I EVEN TOLD HERE THE ATTACKS WERE IMMINENT AND COMING! (because you dont need to be ´extra clever´ to see that: we stopped the opening; started to arrest Kurdish politicians; Apo pulls out of the talks.. AND PKK STARTS..Are you that BLIND to see above? is it a the rocket science?)

Basically in the end:

- We have a Kurdish Problem.. Our Kurdish issue has been the problem since 1920s.

- Thinking that "it is something to do with other countries or their secret services etc" has been excuses by the state to beef up the nationalistic feelings...And it was further developed by the fantasists whenever something happened without giving any proof.. (it is almost like having an argument with a person who believes in Dogma actually.. How do you believe without any evidence: I dont need evidence to believe that.. Allah allah!!)

- Thinking ´this is a terrorism problem only´ was WRONG in the first place and caused us almost 70.000 deaths..

- I think in the end, we Turks now realized there is no end to this fight.. We are not winning this war with armed struggle...We have to make peace.

- The peace will be and can be made between fighting parties..

- We have been saying ´terrorism only´ and tried to finish our Kurdish problem with the guns only and FAILED..

- More armed fights will only increase the resentment between Turks and Kurds.

The question is really very simple in the end:

- Looking at the problem as ´Terrorism only´ and keep fighting (like we did last 30 years and caused 70.000 death) and cause more resentment (and in the end split of Turkey)

- Accepting that ´it is not terrorism only´ and making peace, no more killing and living EQUALLY with the Kurds..

* There are internationally accepted definitions of terror and terrorism. The way you describe terrorism is irresponsible and it is not backed by any established civilized norm of thinking. 

* There is a Kurdish problem in Turkey and this problem did not start in 20´s. There have always been Kurdish uprisals in Anatolia. Ottomans used various methods such as offering titles or money to the kingpins or sending them on exile if they lay hold of them.  The way you write about this matter one might think you are Kurdish uprisal guru but you don´t even know the Ottoman leg of this complicated subject.

* You call the Turkish Armed Forces incompetent. The Turkish Armed Forces are manned by the citizens of this country. They do not use chemical weapons nor do they nuke the terrorists. They fight with arms available to all militaries in the world. They are our sons, brothers, uncles or friends. They risk their lives to carry out the orders they have been given. Now these people have a strong character, they are not seeking solutions they are just intercepting attacks by terrorists on this country. We count on our army for the defense of this country. This is not unique to Turkey. Wherever you go, all the militaries in the world function like this. You would rave about the compulsory military service in Turkey. You know there are other options. You could flee from this country and vilify the regime in Turkey to get a British residence permit. Thousands of people did this, it is not something new. You might scorn this but it takes guts just show up at the recruiting office and be one among the thousand deployed onto the enemy.

You should stop going personal like  ignorant people with low IQ we see here who have run out of ideas to argue, would do..

If you have something to say, say it without resorting to personal insult which you very well know will come back at you..

Apart from that, we talked about the defintion of terrorism here before.. So you should stop trying to lecture about it, because, obviously, you dont know much about terrorism or cause of it etc!!

I thought you would love to  leave  the important things to historians. and Now you are the expert of Ottoman history? eh? And since you ´know the Kurdish problem; is a historical problem, dont you think trying to associating the latest surge of the kurdish problem with Israel is a bit of a fantasie which is being used to for masturbation of national feelings? eh?

As far as the writings about the army is just about the love of the army you have in your heart.. Mine was much more what the situation is at the moment.. I dont know why you wanted to show how much you respect and love the army is unknown to me. Apart from me, there are many who think that ´our army has failed against the war on terror´ .. But what is wrong of saying that? Usa has failed against Al-kaide for example. I can not see the reason why you think it is something to do with patriotism. Lying or being blind or NOT telling the truth is nothing to do with the patriotism.

I dont think you are in a position to tell me what to do or what not to do really. By doing that you are getting one step closer to the racists of my country who scream ´love it or leave it´. (try to hide it next time please)

So DO NOT!!

Considering the critisizm Turkia and Turks get on this site...The critisizim Dutch get over selling out Bosnians in Serebrenitsa and harboring terorists for petty reasons is nothing.

They screwed up in every known test of humanity; there is no reason to keep quiet about such atrocities, just because they are Dutch.

You still think it is unfair to critisize the Dutch?

I guess you can´t read Alpha... You made a comment that the Dutch government supported PKK, and failed in fighting PKK, just like it had failed with the Bosnians and Serbs. So, I asked you, show me how they failed with the PKK. I showed you HOW the Dutch government battled PKK. So, I asked you, what did the Dutch government did wrong there? But you coulnd´t give me an answer. Instead you keep repeating the only failure you heard of, the failure of Sbrenica.

I will make this question easy for you. What was the Dutch failure in batteling PKK?

I asked this questions before, but your answer was not an answer to my question at all. It´s just a record you have put on "repeat". Now...for once, try to answer the question I have asked you. The question is about PKK and Holland, so the answer is not "Sbrenica".

the Dutch are not expected to battle (they can not. anyway -as they will soon find out, when there are enough PKK members within Holland).

All they have to do now is to monitor the exixtence of those PKK members named on international police red bulletins, catch them and return them to Turkia - as required by the inthernational agreements.

Dont ask for any more stupid proofs.

As i said before those opportunists like thehandsom always distort the facts. DTP achieved its biggest vote shares in 2009 local elections they took %5.7 which is 2.271.000 people. Comparing to 5.000.000 you mention three fifth of all your words are lies. Check it here: http://secim.haberler.com/2009/

After Turkish goverment fulfills the demorcatic reforms, Kurdish people will vote for the service quality. And i am sure DTP or whatever its name now, can not get % 1 even. Because those municipalities don´t provide service to people at all. The streets are full of garbage. What can you expect from a municipality if its mayor recieve orders from the garbage man. We certainly know that Mayors of PKK recieve orders from their workers in order those workers effects are more in KCK, the city organisation of PKK.

We need those reforms in order Turkey will be a very effectual country soon. Although there is no discrimination, the provakers of PKK and foreign secret services made a group of Kurdish people believe in that. So regardless how and why, we will acquire the trust of Kurdish people back. 

As i told before if you can imagine that ethnic problems don´t have foreign effects you must be living in the space or you just do that to distort the facts. 

Coming to PKK militants. You will see how they comes pattering

Turkey´s destiny is changing. We will solve all problems and PKK will recieve that! You see my arm!

Well sometimes, it looks like the truth has to be ´inserted into your brains´!!

We are talking about 1/3 of Kurdish voters here.. Kurds are 15 to 20 million!!  The number of voters plus their familes etc 1/3 of kurds are supporting DTP!! That 1/3 is minimum 5 million!!! So basically as far as the lies are concerned, I am not you!!

The lesson of the last election was ´Kurds said identity´.. Read my posts about it.. (That is the conclusion from many political commentater including Mehmet Ali Birand..)

So as far as the local goverments are concerned, they will vote for BDP again.. Their identity is more important to them then their garbage collection I assume..

So keep dreaming about we make the reforms and bdp will go away..NO.. Kurds know that if there was not BDP , we Turks would not give any rights to them...

Now you are saying ´there is no discrimination.. But in your earlier post you said there is..

you said :

Turkish Government has to treat Kurdish people as they she wants how Turkish society would be treated in Western Thrace. Even the connotation of discrimination is not acceptable. Turkish Government has to acquire Kurdish people’s trust back regardless why and how it spoiled. Even the sympathizers trust.

If we were treating Kurds as equal.. why would you say that?

Are you saying that we dont have any discrimination but it was all a HUGE MISUNDERSTANDING BY THE KURDS..

And also you said, This is our country, these are our people and this is our problem.

You should have added "unseen top top top secret foreign agencies which even I can not see but I believe they are there"   

Turkey has to sort her Kurdish problem if she wants to be in the top position in the middle east and in its region....A Turkey who is unable to solve this problem can not be as effective as she can be.

We almost lost 70.000 people since the beginning of this war for 30 years because people insisting showing the arms which got broken and then slapped on the face like little prats.

We dont want to lose another 30 years.. If we revert to military solution which, in effect,  what we have been doing all those years and failing, again we will lose all the Kurds and part of our country. So we dont want that arm or war anymore..

We want peace.. 

I think we both said enough about that issue. Thats why I will not answer you.

And you please, do not begin threads about PKK for a long time. If someone starts a topic about PKK lets just refer those threads. Because a problem must not been talked again and again and again.

Whatever thought is told by both sides. Now lets stop. PKK is not the only matter about Turkey! I am sure PKK and Kurdish problem is not the only thing that followers of that site wonders. Lets talk something different from now on. And wait and see who is right.

OK? Deal?

There was an 85 years old Jewish ex-concentration camp inmate among the relief workers. He was harrassed too.

He obviously differed in his opinions about the whole affair.

I dont know what you mean by that..

I dont think it is important to me what you think it should be talked here or not.. I decide what to post or what not to post as long as I am within the rules and I think it is an important subject for Turkey.. So none of your business..

But one thing for sure, I will not stop answering any racist or belittleing comments about my country and telling the truth or what it should be in my opinion.. That was the case for me that will always be the case for me.. 

I say If you want peace than stop justifiying terrorism.

I say I study on socio-economic development of ethnic groups, at university. If you care about that issue as much as me come to Turkey and work on the solution of the problem. Don´t just tell lies from there. May be you contrubute peace. 

And I say, we talked enough. Lets do not repeat ourselves and lose time. 

BTW I also say stop fabricating. Read before you talk. Because i am worried tomorrow you may say there are 50 million Kurds http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=TRA

Allah allah..who is trying to justify terrorism?

We are trying to talk about our Kurdish problem which you started "denying" as ´we dont have Kurdish problem but all is terrorism; foreign involvements but you can  not see that and I dont have a proof either; they are top secret; blah blah´ Then later on switched to ´we have actually Kurdish problem; because of that we will make the country more democratic for them; we will make sure they are treated as the people in the west etc´ then said ´we will show the arm´ ..That is the real problem here and in Turkey.. Because of the people like you who wanted to show arms and called everything a terrorism only ´we still have this problem in these days´

As far as your education and what you are showing here as the knowledge, I dont know.. May be the level of ´knowledge (or lack of knowledge)´ can be a criteria for calling a person as educated in Turkish standarts.. It is really sad.. You are showing every necessary indication that you are the product of the education system which we all have to cry for.. Give my best regards to your teachers!!

Look at this..You are even not close about the numbers about Kurds..

You always say they do terrorism but they have reasons right? Thats absolutely how you justify terrorism. If a person supports peace s/he must stop with blaming all kind of terrorists. The approach of "my terrorists is good, they have reasons for that" just deepens the problem. You must quit that as soon as possible.

I certainly know what i said in all my posts. Because i didn´t build up those ideas nowadays. But i will repeat again in order you do not understand or you distort facts. The main problem of Turkey is terrorism. Terrorists do not represent Kurdish people. They work for the sake of foreign secret services. 

There is a Kurdish problem also which is absolutely different than terrorism. I mentioned how that problem can be solved in my previous posts and i guess we agreed in many points.

And yes we will show the arm to terrorists if they do not surrounder. That is a strategy called carret and stick. That strategies effectiveness is tested in the solution of different ethnic problems. But i wont go into academic details of it for you to understand it You don´t even understand single words, i will not confuse you with academic discussions.

About the number of Kurds, why don´t you tell that to 1000 people who made that study i referred. They are not Turkish at all. But shitting peoples expertises is your style if you don´t like the results of them right? Thats why i tell you don´t look for truth but try to dictate your ideas. 

Production of education system mean? What a huge sentence. Wow. Stop talking nonsenses dude. That education system raised Muzaffer Sherifs, Şerif Mardins, Vamık Volkans etc.

Handsome, have you ever fight with your gf, wife or friend etc? To end the fight and let both sides to think calmer you have to stop talking about the problems. If you keep talking about problems always, you just blame each other, many times by overreacting. That is why i hold out the olive branch to you, to think calmer. But i think i am right to think that you are fed by fights. Thats why you don´t want to stop. Generally ladies act like that. They always keep asking but why? But why? But you did that! etc. We man must calm them down those times to go on our relationship right?

So i just ask you to act just like a handsome guy acts.

´

You didn´t understand again what i said. I said sth better than that. Turkish Goverment has to treat Kurdish people as she want Turkish society to be treated in Western Therace. (Batı Trakya Batı Trakya) Kapiş?

Why don´t you visit me at school one day? We drink tea. Its mine! So you can send your best regards to my lecturers yourself. May be you get some inspiration... Which ones do you wish to meet? Sedat Laçiner? İhsan Bal?

Blimey you are still here..and determined to eat watermelon this time..

Look ..I never consider you as my gf or my wife..

I never did and I will never do ..OK?  

Also I dont like you categorising ´women is like that´ ´men is like that; men calm the situations´ etc type of typical sexist approach. Are they teaching you those sexist views in school?..Stop thinking about my blood pressure, I am calm as the dead sea here ..

I will have to lock this thread if you continue posting messages:

* justifying terror

* declaring the Turkish Army incompetent (without going into speculation about whether it is right or wrong: this may constitute a crime in Turkey)

* personal attacks

* anti-Dutch, anti-Turkish, anti-Kurdish etc. sentiments.

Although, I believe Turkey has much more freedom of speech and criticizing  the army is allowed in democracies and also you would not object me criticizing the education system or the judiciary  but,  I did modify my post and deleted a line..

Saying that ´terrorism is the result of some other problems´ is nothing to do with justification of terrorism. That is what I believe..

But if you read everything from the beginning, I think you should start deleting your own posts for personal attacks, for being anti-Kurdish and for being anti-Turkish..

But anyway, nice to see that your mod powers are back  and I deleted the line.. 

Thank you I have edited some posts including mine and removed personal attacks that came to my attention. It is users´ duty to edit their posts to remove such attacks. If it is too obvious or too disparaging to wait for user action, I may edit them instantly: e.g. swear words, unethical phrases etc.

Please advise me your complaints...

I am not a lawyer but a quick google search reveals a Turkish Penal Code Law Paragraph 318 entitled "Discouraging people to perform military service." You are a certain John Doe addressing people through Turkish Class. If a judge decides that a negative propoganda of the Turkish Military is being made through this site, site owners will have to bear the consequences. This might include imposing a legal ban on access to the site for Turkish users.

Do you remember why google was banned. It is not the only site, for example, thousands of sites operating under Geosites are also banned because somebody cursed Ataturk or the like.

Again I am not saying I support these laws but as long as they are in effect, we must observe them.

I had said something similar about banning this site 1 or 2 years ago. Pointing out posts of guess-who.

It´s all a matter of filing a complain to the court about this site. I PM´d admin about this and he didn´t sound caring about it too much.

Anyway. Maybe hansom would like it better because many Turkish members would not be able sign on anymore.

I dont understand why cant hairy say anything even if it meant criticism? I am not pro demo(n)carcy or freedom stuff, but still I think he should have his two pennies in no matter how "devastating" his comments are.

Lets discuss without belittling each other or name calling when you lack arguments. Come on, people, be men, have cool heads!

Is this your answer to the owner of those word? 

Turkish Government has to treat Kurdish people as they she wants how Turkish society would be treated in Western Thrace. Even the connotation of discrimination is not acceptable. Turkish Government has to acquire Kurdish people’s trust back regardless why and how it spoiled. Even the sympathizers trust. This is our country, these are our people and this is our problem.  

Local Governments reform is a must. Local Governments has to be empowered.  Primary education, basic healthcare and police services must be introduced by local governments. Selective local language courses must be allowed at primary schools according to the needs of the city. Local government’s tax revenues must be increased harmoniously with their new duties according. Central Government must make the re-distribution of tax revenues according to population or the tax revenue that is acquired in the borders of the municipality. In that point a risk occurs. That is, even now, with lower incomes, some municipalities help PKK, how to prevent that that illegal finance transfer? The Government has to establish a very effectual audit mechanism. She has to designate the standards of service introduction and has to make a performance audit which has legal and financial enforcements. The second problem is nepotism and that would again be prevented with audits. There must be clear standards of recruitment and contracts processes. The audits must be made to increase service quality and prevent corruptions. If the central government plays the inspector role rather than service provider role, that increases service quality.

Land reform has to be done. The feudal structure must be put away. All people have to be individuals who are not bounded to feudal leaders. That reform must be done by encouragement to prevent feudal leader’s resistance. Such as barter can be offered to those leaders. Industrial plant real estates can be given to those leaders in response to their agriculture lands. And the lands can be given to villagers without lands who work on that land. The government must provide extensive agriculture consultancy service to those villagers. So with land reform, industrial capacity and agricultural capacity would also be increased while people become free individuals. 

Periodic forgiveness must be provided for the terrorists just for once. That period must be no longer than three months. That period is enough for the publicity of the policy and enough for terrorists to abandon their guns and run away from the organism. Those who abandon their guns must be obliged to work in public services for 5-10 years. Those services must be mostly the ones those are provided for martyr soldiers’ families. New identities can also be given to them.  They have to be monitored by the government. At the end of that 3 months process Turkish army must enter terrorist camps in Northern Iraq, Avaşin Basyan, Hakurk Zap etc an destroy them at all. Turkish army must stay in those camps until absolute security is established. 

Economic clusters must be established in all regions. Industrial promotes must be implemented in the regions according to comparative industrial production superiorities. But that has to be audited well to prevent corruptions. 

And finally exchange programs must be organised to increase the harmony between Kurdish and Turkish people.

That is the difference between you and me. I show my arm to terrorists, you want to show urs to people who spends all their times on the sloution. Ehy are you feeling restless when a person mentions "PKK will end and Kurdish and Turkish people will live in peace" Do you support PKK?

In order to find solution and debate i posted that message;

I think we both said enough about that issue. Thats why I will not answer you.

And you please, do not begin threads about PKK for a long time. If someone starts a topic about PKK lets just refer those threads. Because a problem must not been talked again and again and again.

Whatever thought is told by both sides. Now lets stop. PKK is not the only matter about Turkey! I am sure PKK and Kurdish problem is not the only thing that followers of that site wonders. Lets talk something different from now on. And wait and see who is right.

OK? Deal?

Is this your answer to that post? Is this your way of solving problems? Is this your style of peace building? If you cannot even get on with me, who will you get on with? Or you don´t want to deal with anybody but just dictate your ideas? My lecturers tought me that this is not the way how the prblems are getting solved. If only you could just attend one of our lectures. May be you would think of stopping to fed up with fight! I will not be a part of your silly game. There are more important games to be played!

Another difference between me and you is, when you think that you lose debates you just appeal personal attacks. Because you are in love with yourselve and I am trying to solve the problem.

You are an easy picking for me, so even if i humiliate you 10 times a day, that does not add anything to the solution of the problem. Thats why, i have answers to all words but i look if the word is word, and than i look at the man if he is a man or not?

I have no answers to you!

You have already lost it on several grounds.

Your teachers seem to have neither enough brain power nor enough intelligence to produce  a solution .. How can they where as they are the problem.. The best thing I recommend your teachers to shut up and stop trying to prevent the peace in this country . They are not ´intelligent enough´ They are not bright enough..

Just go and try to educate yourself ..Try to learn more about this topic.. Not from those bunch of fantasists.. Sorry to say but..If you dont, the result will be always the same for you : An embaressing education!!

Yes..we are different..Thanks god..

Look, stop embaressing yourself here by coming back again and again like a broken record without answering any questions or without thinking carefully how you can proof for what you are saying.. 

Look at yourself!! Look who is trying to go into personal attacks childishly.. Can you not see how embaressing it is??

Phew!!

What  a pity...

You don´t even know with whom you talk to.

Anger made you crazy. I stop here. We don´t want you to die because of heart attack riht.

If you talk about my lecturers that much crazily, may be you have a pain about education ha? 

If you wonder them that much why dont you check them out?

http://www.turkishweekly.net/columnist/3362/axis-shift-or-boom-of-self-confidence.html

http://www.turkishweekly.net/columnist/3359/should-turkey-declare-war-on-iraq.html

I think it is now the time to bring the karpuz..

you really seperated some times to find a water melon picture...

You must do sth more usuful in your free times...

watermelon is never a waste of time yummm... Why is the watermelon in Holland so watery... I miss watermelon from Turkey

You were wrong 1 or 2 years ago, you are wrong NOW and you will be wrong in the future when you try stopping "people expressing their opinions". (Dawkins web site was banned in Turkey a few years ago because of Adnan Oktar´s complain.. No one accused of Dawkins but everybody thought how primitive and backwards Adnan Oktar is) 

I am well aware that the objections are nothing to do with the site or site being banned or  ´ Oh I dont like it either but the law says this and that´ crap.  It is the nationalists feeling which makes ridiculing Dutch army to a Dutch person acceptable but becomes aggressive when someone say a few words about his own army.. (Yet it is the army I served as well. But it does not matter for them)

Turkey has changed a lot recently. People may not be realising that but these type trials were bringing Turkey into disrepute  and were embarrassing forall of us. I dont know if there are any new trials recently but the way people criticise the army in the newspapers  tells me that the law is not practised any more (I guess because of embarrassment  they brought to Turkey)

And also with the new proposed constitution which we will vote at 12th of September is taking the possibility of "taken to military courts" away. I dont think there will be any more of these trials..