I am a Turkish ph.d student living in New England, and I will most probably continue living in the US after graduation. I have lived in Europe and the US as well as my home country Turkey. I am a very open-minded, and more like a Western-oriented person in lifestyle although I still have many Turkish characters in me.

But I am not your typical Turk. I love my country, language, cuisine and religion and I will keep talking about them, but on the other hand, I have no problem marrying a non-Turkish, non-moslem person in the future. I am not a jealous type, I don´t try to own my girlfriend, or seek a virgin. Actually I would like to marry a local person in order to best mix with the American culture, so that I won´t stick out because no matter what they say, there is a great deal amount of prejudice and discrimination against foreigners here. No matter how good English I speak, and as a matter of fact, I worked as a translator, teacher and linguist, my accent is still there! And with that in mind, the life is a lot harder here.

Given all that I would like to get in a relationship with an American girl, and no, it is not because of greencard or something, since this kinda marriage can easily be arranged in my case, it´s just because I´d wish to engage with an American woman if I would continue my life in America. However, all the women I have been somehow involved with were Europeans, who were supposed to have grudge and racist feelings against Turks. My best friends were Serbian and Greeks, and aren´t those supposed to have the most negative feelings towards Turks? No matter what kinda prejudice they´d historically have, European women were always much more open-minded in personal relations. It was always much easier to contact and connect with them, to relate to them and to engage in a relationship with them.

Americans, on the other hand, have always been an impossibility for me. First of all, they are ignorant and/or prejudiced against Turks and also unwilling to bother to even think about anything serious with me. This is actually a general pattern of behavior here against foreigners. The so called hospitality is completely fake and does not exist on personal level, and once they are done with their jobs, they pay zero attention to you. I never felt so lonely in any country. I had made 60 friends in the first month I was in Europe. I have been in the US for 3 years, I still hardly have any American friends. Don´t get me wrong, I have many friends, but the vast majority are either other foreigners or Turks like me. And without local friends, how am I supposed to get integrated with the culture?

Maybe this is just the New England culture... I´ve been told that it is very different down in the South, which I never had a chance to visit. I´d like to meet and date American girls and maybe marry one someday. Now that I will live in the US, it only makes sense. I heard lots of love stories of Americans marrying Turks, but it hardly ever happens around me and I have had no luck so far. They don´t even consider dating a foreign guy.

I hope I did not sound rude or crude. Any suggestions???

i

Interesting thread , hmm then marry a european girl especially a slavic origin like our great Sultans did in the past  if you plan to marry a girl other than Turk. I guess you do not have a necessity to get married with an American.

The title is a bit misleading. How do you know that they are the worst?

They have been the worst among those I have contacted with so far, and boy I have contacted people from dozens of countries. In Europe, it was mainly different kinds of European people, and in US, add this to many Asian people such as the Indian, Chinese etc as well as Europeans.

@armageddon

I don´t need to, but I would wish to, because this is America where I am living, my relatives are married to Americans, and are naturalized citizens. For personal and family-related reasons, I need to live on here, and it just makes a lot more sense to me to marry an American, regardless of her background (religion etc), which doesn´t bother me, on the contrary, I´d like her to be as a regular American as possible, and I have no intentions whatsoever to convert her to Islam or being a Turk or something.

I guess you are entitled to your opinion.  However, I am an American woman who has been married to a Turk for several years now.  There are several of us on this site, so thanks for soundly insulting us all.  I don´t find your post to reflect your alleged open mindedness, in fact it only underscores your hostility towards strong women.

Since you asked for suggestions, might I suggest that you stop assuming that everyone hates you because you are Turkish.  I know this may be hard to accept but perhaps the women you are meeting just don´t like you.

The basic problem is that you are looking for an American girl. You shouldn´t be looking for a girl based on her country of origin. You should be looking for a smart girl, a funny girl, a sweet girl, whatever personality fits you best. What difference does it make if she is American or not? If a guy would come to my here in Holland, and I would feel that he only showed me any interest was because he really has this idea of marrying a Dutch girl, I would turn around and run away fast. It´s very unattractive for me to think that a guy was looking for a Dutch girl specifically. Girls are not like dogs, where a specific race is what you should be looking for.

Secondly, perhaps you have this idea in your head now that American girls aren´t nice. This changes your judgement and also the way people react to you. I have met some horrible, HORRIBLE men in Turkey. The lowest of the lowest. Calling them dogs would be an insult to dogs. However, I always tried my best to not judge all Turkish men based on those experiences. That is why later on I did meet decent, friendly, and nice men in Turkey. Perhaps the people in your surroundings at the moment aren´t the best that America has to offer! You wouldn´t want to judge all Turkish men by the Turks that are dancing on tables in the touristic bars, high on drugs, who are only interested in visa´s, money and sex , right?

One point you guys miss is that it is not about "me" only. I am in a highly diverse campus, populated by around 80% Americans and 20% foreigners. I am both a teacher, teaching undergraduates, and a student, studying my ph.d. You virtually see NO interaction between Americans and non Americans. There is an invisible wall between them. I tried in many occasions to mix into the crowd both as a teacher with my students, going to parties, events etc and also as a student with collegeaus. I was succesful with foreigners but Americans just don´t want to mingle with outsiders. I am not only talking about romantic relationships here. And that the women I meet simply don´t like me is a complete mis-statement because such an occasion never even took place. I also dated a couple people I met online, all happened to be foreigners, you know why? Because Americans never bother replying when you mention "foreigner or international or Turkish". In several occasions, where they seemed interested, they quit talking to me as soon as they understood I was foreigner or Turkish. So it basically is not a personality issue!

When you see people paying attention to you till they hear your accent signals to something! It´s not a fickle fabric of my imagination, it´s just out there, obvious with thousands of examples, also spelled out many times by my other foreign friends, who just had their individual opinions, but not yet put the pieces together from different people.

This is in no way an insult to American women, after all, Americans are not a race, they are a "global" people, as the most diverse society ever. But it is the general social attitude that I am criticizing, not the people´s selves per se. And because I am simply raising an issue, there is no reason to be offended by. Also misleading as it might be, I am only reflecting my experiences and observations in New England, and not necessarily the whole country.

Also I am still entitled to look for an "American woman", because first of all, most of the people here are American (around 90%) and it just makes things a lot harder when you´re isolated from the majority of the people, and discriminated against (so please don´t tell me it´s an insult to American women), secondly, those who are not American, either will leave the country sometime in the future or have very different traditions etc. Also Marrying an American is the best way to adapt to your environment. Likewise It is only natural to marry a Turkish girl and learn the Turkish traditions if you are going to live in Turkey. Also, Americans are not a "race", they are a nation of all ethnicities, so it´s not like conditioning yourself to one kinda people.

And finally I fail to see how the low life Turks you met match with this example. I am not talking about some specific examples I encountered or got resented and bitching about it, I am talking about the whole population and general attitude towards foreigners. When you went to Turkey, if all guys treated you the same over a large area, the size of Netherlands, then you have every right to spell it out.

One thing I noticed though, this attitude is more lenient in big cities like New york & Boston where people seemed more accepting. New England is mostly rural and the rural structure of the landscape coupled with the cold Northern Climate might be aggrevating the situation.

Ethnocentrism, xenophobia and the racist sentiment with various modes and intensities are all parts of our lives. They exist in the US and they exist in Turkey too.

Today, extreme right-wing parties freely advocating what could be considered as racist policies can get considerable public support. For example in Austria, the right wing party that calls for imposing restrictions on Turkish immigrants and suspending relations with Turkey could get 30% of the vote. Nevertheless, it is also true that the extremist discourse is usually meant for fishing for votes and they rarely put their silly promises into practice on rising to power. We have had nationalist and religious parties running the country. Could they convert us into what they advertised in their election campaigns? No. That is to say, much of this is really word salad. There are indeed racist elements underneath but as long as the they are not backed by the laws, all that we can do is ignoring them. We must however fight against racist elements in rules, regulations, policies and public statements.

All said, there is little cure in this for your problem about socializing with the US females. To my surprize, they have never been crazy for me either. Luckily, I haven´t been attracted to them either. You know when you live in different worlds, this does not pose a problem. You don´t want to spend your life with someone who has a completely different and incompatible mindset. There examples that prove, there are less typical Turks or Americans than what most people believe.

Usually, we talk, believing that we are making a point. In reality, our listeners derive different messages from our words. These messages are hidden in many aspects of our speech. Although they fail to reflect what you really want to say, they do convey a message regarding who you actually are. For example, I don´t like your "typical Turk" description nor do I like your generalization about American women. Moreover, I don´t agree with your generalization about European women either. Three disagreements following one another. If I were a woman that would be enough for me to keep my distance. A mind that divides people into classes is capable of doing other mildly irritating things. Here is a rule of the thumb, if you divide people into three or more categories and blame them for one thing or another, you are probably a megalomaniac. Of course, you haven´t done this and I am not calling you that but that is just an example...

Although strickly not a problem associated with you as a person, megalomania is quite common among young people and in the campus environment. It is surely one way to beat boredom. Young people live in an oversimplified world where the sky is the only limit. After turning a few pages on the text book, they look at butchers, green grocers and other craftsmen around and dub themselves the next Einstein. A single word could convert them into revolutionaries. I know because I was young too. I had problems understanding women too. I was always amazed why they weren´t attracted to such a high IQ man like me. I was unable to see myself through the eyes of another person then. Even today, that point is a bit problematic.

And the punch line is, the entire America can not be against you. There are still millions of people with whom you could connect with. It is just a matter of trying with patience.

Is the area of Kusadasi, Bodrum, Marmaris, Antalya big enough for you? And also in the bus to Konya. I have had times where it felt like the whole of Turkey was out for either my money, a visa, or to cheat on their wives/girlfriends. But I also went out of my way to find decent people.

If you don´t feel comfortable in the town you are living in, perhaps it´s time for you to move instead of joining an internet forum just to vent this frustration. Just like I don´t go to certain Turkish sea-side resorts anymore, since the people there make me puke.

By the way... I have to note that there is a certain type of Turkish man that rubs me the wrong way too. I am not attracted to this type at all, and in general they tend to be highly educated so it´s not about visa´s or money. There seems to be a cultural difference between me and them. And when I make clear that I´m not interested in them, they start to blame me, or accuse me of being superficial, saying I´m not attracted to them because of their non-athletic looks. This silly childish blaming makes them even more unattractive! They are coming on too strong, too fast. This might be the Turkish way, the romantic lover, the hunter, but for a girl like me this is irritating. I don´t even want to be friends with such a person. Perhaps part of your problem is a difference in culture. Turkish men can be frightening to people from a more distant and cool culture.

@vineyards

I understand your points which kinda make sense, but to my surprise, even though Europeans exhibited a much more openly racist behavior against me due to historical steretypes or events, I was still much more comfortable with the Europeans, both men and women, compared to Americans. And when I give you examples, it´s not necessarily something that happened to me, but rather and amalgamation of the experiences of my foreigner friends including Turks and me. I just overheard this conversation between two of my classmates, for example:

Omer : American girls are difficult, don´t you think?

Mike : Hmm, not really, not with me at least.

Omer : I´ve been with more foreign women than Turkish and Americans were clearly the toughest to deal with and they made little sense.

Mike : I don´t agree but it´s probably because you´re foreign.

I am just literally conveying the conversation. I remember many other occasions like that, and not necessarily in romantic situations. In Europe, many people had prejudices and outright racist behaviors against Turks but they were willing to get to know you and once they did (if you have a decent character), your Turkishness was an advantage above all, since it was a source of curiosity. This was the case with me and many of my Turkish friends. In the US, however, my foreignness, not necessarily Turkishness, led them to being completely indifferent towards me.

After reading the comments here yesterday, I went straight to my American housemates and asked what they thought... We agreed that it has something to do with the upbringing (which most likely relates to xenophobia). This is a different sentiment though, it´s not due to historical reasons but more about modern uncertainties and phobias. Because unlike in Europe, where they hate me just because I am Turkish (in relevant situations), in America, people don´t hate me, but rather don´t wanna be involved with a foreigner since they feel uncomfortable with foreigners/strangers.

Generalization is always wrong to some degree, but it serves to simplify an important message. Of course not all women are the same, in any country, but it yet points to a situation, different than other countries, which is useful for comparison purposes. And if we´re not to like people for generalization, it´s again the Americans who generalize things the most. They see all moslem peoples and cultures the same for example. I say, wait a minute, there are over 1,5 billion moslems on eath, scattered around dozens of countries, and they can´t possibly the same, just like two predominantly Christian countries, Nigeria and the USA are in no way the same! So simple, right? But yet mamy Americans fail to understand that. Otherwise, my highly educated friend from Boston wouldn´t call me to see if I was safe (in Turkey) when US was occupying Iraq! A European woman would never do that!

I never defined a typical Turk but I know that I am not a typical Turk. You know this when you look around and see that you´ve been obviously different from most of the people around you all your life, which was also articulated by many people! One friend from New york literally said this about me, "Even though you´re very Turkish in many ways, yet You´re so different from all the Turks I have known". A typical Turk, if you will, wants his wife to assume his traditions and religion. He likes soccer a lot. He yanks about the deviant behaviors of American women yet He enages in sexual activities with foreign women but usually don´t wanna marry them since he thinks they are not chaste. He´s usually not very timely, and few minutes of late is not really later for him. He loves his culture but cannot explain exactly why. He thinks he has an enourmous history but he knows little about the world history. He likes his language but he is usually clueless about others. He likes and/or respects his religion but have no clue about others... He thinks Turks came from Central Asia but cannot explain why he doesn´t look Kazakhs or Kyrgyz!... and so on... I am absolutely not this person, not that anything wrong with it.

Actually I never had a problem understanding women, I just have a problem understanding American women. Well, I don´t know if I can call it an "understanding" problem, it´s more of a "solution" problem. The problem is there, obvious, it´s just that I don´t have a solution to that problem yet.

@ barba_mama

You´re missing one point. The population that you were exposed to is highly biased to begin with. Those people certainly exist, and just like the stereotypes in Europe, there are many stereotypes in Turkey about Western Women. Your interaction was with  Mainly undeucated sex-thirsty and highly stereotyped males. If they had known the real you, or didn´t have the stereotypes in their minds, they would probably treat you differently. This type of behavior is not exclusive to Turks though but you will meet much more severe forms of it when you go to other moslem / Middle Eastern Countries. This has more to do with the sexually suppressed and subconsciously hypocritical mindset of those nations, which you are perfectly right at criticizing. However, you should keep in mind that this is not how most Turkish men normally behave in a normal social setup. Well, this is a long and separate topic to talk about. 

Unfortunately, moving to another environment is not an option for me. I have to live here due to economic and social reasons and this is WHY I am trying to find a solution (not vent frustration!). There are many people with similar feelings and just because I am articulating it written doesn´t make me a bad guy.

Again, not being a typical Turk, I´d never have a macho or condescending attitude and blame people about what or who to like. I am a shy person in nature. You shouldn´t try to fit me in a previous example/experience/analogy in your mind. Mine is a pure attempt to find a solution. The cultural argument is too general in this case, the case is not about "me", but about the interaction of foreigners and Americans in general (at least in New England Area). So this cultural difference argument would imply a complete alienation of American culture from all other cultures.  

newquaker...if you don´t want to be fit into previous example/experience/analogy then why is the title of this forum thread "American Girls are the Worst"?  

What I was trying to point out is that even in a forum where I can´t distinguish your tone or your inflection, you sound a bit abbrasive.  Maybe it wasn´t your intention but that is exactly how you came across.  If you are looking for friends you´re not off to a good start.    

@Elisabeth

My point exactly! The title was shaping your mind regardless of my intentions! This is similar to the reaction I get from Americans all the time. With one difference is that my title here is "foreigner/Turkish", regardless of my personality. Without my accent, you´d hardly notice I wasn´t American if I didn´t want you to, and sometimes I wish I had come to America way earlier just to have decent accent like my "American" relatives.

And btw the title was there to attract attention and controversy and was actually the exact words of my friend "Omer", which I thought is a good summary of the thoughts of Turkish guys around me. He is actually much better with girls than me!

What astounded me was how on earth you concluded that "I have hostility towards strong women" (which is beyond my understanding since I only criticised the Americans) or that "I think everyone hates me just because I am Turkish"... If anything I think Americans don´t like or wanna be invlolved with foreigners altogether except they look and behave oddly familiar. I wouldn´t think Americans hate Turks at all, some might hate "moslems" for example, but it is never the kind of  "hate" that I came across in Europe, and even that is not something I´m complaining about.

Your title was deliberately provoking a fight?  I just can´t imagine why American women find you off-putting!  You seem so charming and delightful...Good luck making friends, newquaker!  (Might I suggest you find a recent European immigrant to settle down with?)  

@Elisabeth

I wasn´t provoking a fight! Attracting controversy is not the same thing. But of course those who look for a fight will find it. I was merely expressing the thoughts of Turkish guys around me, in an "unedited" fashion. But it seems like you´re quite the touchy type, who is quick to take things personal and start attacking back with unfounded claims. Maybe I touched a nerve there?

Why do you insist understanding things the wrong way? Please read my posts carefully. Noone finds me off-putting! It´s not a personal issue. I am simply reporting my observations about the general population´s behavior towards the foreigners including Turks, and what bothers me most is the women´s attitude toward us. Most of those experiences don´t even belong to me! However, Your wannabe sarcastic comments about me being charming and delightfull is welcome And maybe instead of taking things the wrong way, you might try to help me next time instead of useless remarks! If you are not like that, just don´t take it personal!

I just watched the Uconn Huskies vs Indiana Butlers Game with my American fellows, and things are exactly the way I thought it would be. They try to cluster together with little regard to you, at odds with the foreigners, with whom I had no problems communicating with.

Pfff... let me be "typical Dutch" and straight forward  I think that the point that us women on the forum are trying to make...sometimes when a guy can´t get a girl, it´s not the girl´s fault. It might just be the guy Send some pictures, and we´ll be the judge. But right now, from what you write you are not coming across as the most attractive man ever. You seem a bit... complainy (I know it´s not a word).

Well, I have a picture on my profile and go ahead but please keep your comments private, and I don´t want this thread turn into something else. Again, It´s not about "getting an American girl", since such occasions never happened to me. I never tried to date an American girl, and was never rejected by them since such an atmosphere was never even created around me between Americans and foreigners. So there is no such girl in person. If that were the case, I wouldn´t have to feel compelled to write but would merely take it as a personal issue. Being rejected is normal, but not even having chance to be rejected is the problem. In most cases, I am merely conveying my observations about my Turkish and other foreign friends.

Am I the complaining type? well, I am more like the "serious" type. I never complained in Europe and I never complained in America until now. In Contrast, there are many people I heard complaining about American girls all the time, they just don´t take it "seriously" and write in a forum website. Just keep in mind that, I am not complaining about women in general, but more about "the American attitude towards foreigners and the reflection of that on foreign guys by American women", to be exact.

 OK...so you call a thread "American Girls are the worst" so that you can satisfy some egotistical need to argue a vague point you have about Americans V. Foreigners because you and group of equally charming foreigners are having a hard time fitting in?  But I am not supposed to be personally offended by this because I am supposed to understand that you really only wanted to provoke conversation?  You make comments about wanting to find an American girl to be with but when it is pointed out that you are offensive and maybe the problem is you and not Americans, you say that you are not interested in American girls but that are trying to cultivate some deeper understanding of the American buddy system...I´m not afraid to admit I am totally clueless as to what your really trying to find out.  I am going to "cluster" with my "fellow Americans"  because I am apparently I´m just not clever enough to understand....where is girleegirl when I need her???   

a typical turk isnt close minded, jaelous or wants to own their girlfriend. they also love their country. they dont have problem marrying a non-turkish or non-moeoeoeslem person. they dont typically seek a virgin either.

First of all, I never said Turks are closed-minded, which is a rather subjective issue! We must be coming from very different environments Burak! Because the very vast majority of the Turks around me here and my hometown in Turkey (Northwest) and all the Turks I have met in Europe were pretty much that way! There are always exceptions but again, those are exceptions! In short, typical Turkish men want to date Western women, but they don´t sincerely want to marry them unless they adopt their culture, with the major exception of getting a visa and similar cases. I have met a handful of Turks who sincerely married their non-moslem wives without further expectation but those are ultra exceptional cases.

I am not really satisfying anything, just trying to find answers and/or solutions. You´re free to understand it wrong though. I am just asking you one combined favor. Stop taking this personally, taking things the wrong way and insulting me. Although I have never addressed to you personally, every one of your messages included some kind of insult addressed directly to me.  Please be civil. As you Americans say, if you can´t agree, agree to disagree without personal insults.

I didn´t want to "provoke" anything! This is your fabrication and/or imagination. I wanted to attract attention and controversy.  I am a linguist, and those are completely different things like day and night.

I am not talking about "a group of charming foreigners".... I am talking about the vast majority of all foreigners. at least in the New England Area. This so called "group" includes hundreds of thousands of people, if not a million.

Again, the problem cannot be me because I have never talked about a specific situation about me.  I´ve always been talking in general, with regards to the whole foreign population (and especially those who I know around me). In a few examples when I said, "they don´t even wanna date me", for example, I was referring to situations where this kinda probability did not even come to existence, unlike situations in Europe, where I simply asked people out and got rejected several times, which is normal, and is not my point.

And by the way, who says I am not interested in American girls? This is totally and utterly wrong. I am very much interested in American Girls and this is why I am here (this forum) in the first place!

I just mentioned this "clustering" issue to my pal Omer today, and he couldn´t agree more! Added that he´d been suffering from this "indifference" for years, and described the situation "extremely rude & tactless". Two of our good American friends/classmates, he continued, wouldn´t even talk to us, if we did not continually try to converse with them. Finally, in order to describe the ignorance & indifference of American girls that he´s been exposed to, he jokingly told me that his family expected him to have an American girlfriend, but instead he ended up with a Romanian Girlfriend in America Ironically funny!

i can see how were coming from very different enviroments and points of views. living in england im pretty sure you have a wide knoweldge of turkish people and get a chance to observe their behaviour accurately. while i on the other hand obviously not aware of the typical turkish person while living with the 17 million turks in the same city and have spent every summer of my life touring the country

the thing is my friend, no offense to you please, that you judge turks by the turks living in foreign countries. yes those ones are typically close minded. but turks, typically, are not. the close mindedness and an obsession for religion and tradition is not something special for turkish people. im sure you see that see the same type of patterns in england with english people, espescially hinterland towns and up north in scotland. the amount of such behaviour you described in your first post are not subject to being turkish-special only. theyre the typical features produced by the corruption of values in uneducated sects in a society. special cases, as you said, do not change this fact.

and im sure if you asked to any turkolog they would enlighten you about the fact that turks troughout history have always neighbored to many different countries and cultures. but instead of agressively trying to assimilate these negihbors, they acted opposite and have recieved subjects of assimilation themselves. and therefore inherently have no inclination of trying to impose religion into their foreign marriages. but as you said, exceptions exist.

Some insights from American girls about Turkish men (& greek ones also):

here

Here´s a quote:

Tips for the Date

One tip: Don´t go.

Hahaha, that´s hillarious! Although it of course doesn´t apply to everyone, it is still a good example to portray stereotypical Turkish & Greek guys and far from completely true, but there is some truth to it.

Do you think a typical American, Mexican, Brazilian, German or  a typical Dutch is a saint?

Do you think British men walk in the streets with sticks in hand and exquisite manners. Is a typical Spanish guy an ardent reader of classical literature? Do greengrocers really sing arias in Italy? Is a typical Romanian Count Dracula? What about those flying Dutchmen, I think they all work for the KLM.

If multiple examples justify settling on a norm, my typical French tourist would be the one who never washes and shamelessly farts in public. What about those British football fans; they can´t be aristocrats can they. When they abondoned the Taksim square, the whole place looked like an open air public loo. All the streets were washed with sticky beer drunk and conveniently discarded by the fans. It took quite a few fire trucks to clean the place.

There are still paternal families and they are not few but in a country like Turkey, generalizing this point is nothing but ridiculous. I meet many people everyday who surprize me with the things they have achieved in this country. In my opinion, if anything is becoming prevalent in this country its these people who achieve things without judging themselves according to somebody else´s principles. The sooner people realize this point, the easier the relations between them will become.

we just love to publicise our biggest faults. the thread starter is a good example of this

I´ve never looked for an American girl to marry (sorry GG, you must have known I was just fooling around) so I cannot symphatise with you. I just couldn´t resist adding a few cents on the subject. You raise a few main points:

1. You´re not a typical Turk

2. American girls are not interested in you because you are Turkish

3. Non-Americans although biased against you at first, do not have reservations like the American girls do

Let me just tell you what I gather here:

1. Maybe that´s the problem? Most Turks I have met were fantastic people, open-minded, charming, interested in having a two-way conversation, caring, outgoing and a bit shy in a good sense (I´m not talking here about creepy hairy older guys stalking you whenever you go out on your own but the people I met). Sure, they may be a bit nationalistic and Ataturk obssessed but it´s not something they´d be throwing at you every single minute, they´d mention it in a discussion and then continue to be charming

2. We don´t have enough data to tell you why they´re not into you. Surely you haven´t tried getting friendly with all of them, have you? Maybe there is something about you that they find unpleasant? Or maybe you´re trying to mix with the wrong kind of girls? Ones that consider you not in their league? Again, we don´t have enough data to say anything here. Maybe you lack common ground with Americans? Maybe you´re creating a cultural gap around you? Again, it´s just my guess. Also, if you tell them straight away you want their passport, it´s the easiest way for them to run to the hills. Have you considered that it may be how you phrase your thoughts that makes them find you offensive or too direct or unattractive? Your written English is excellent but since a few people read your post as offensive, although you said it wasn´t your intention, then maybe you should work on the pragmatics of your utterances?

3. It´s always easier to mingle with foreigners because you come from the same place: abroad - and that´s one thing you have in comon from the start. Also, you are deprived of your history, of friends and families etc. Americans you meet are not uprooted like you, they have their life, friends and lifestyle. You´re an outsider and maybe you don´t fit in. I have been living in Ireland for four years and most friends I made are foreign. However, I don´t believe it´s because the Irish are the worst.

Your point about American girls to be worst as far as their interest in foreigners is concerned, cannot be valid as there are thousands of American women married to foreigners, including Turks. So, since it´s not Americans, it might be you...or it might be your choice of the people you´d like to pay their attention to you

Dear Daydreamer,

Thank you for this beautiful and civil evaluation and criticism. This is actually the kind of help I´ve been looking for. And whether or not I agree, I tend to learn something from each comment as long as they are civil like this.

Since I am a linguist, my language skills gotta be good but, as you pointed out, It is not always easy for me to predict how people may react to my words. Sometimes, for reasons obscure to me, they may end up understanding completely different things. I might be missing some "sense" ability here. Also I´d like to touch some points regarding your evaluations.

1. I said I am not a typical Turk, but it was neither my primary point here nor that it matters that much. I was simply trying to tell that I hardly suit to an average Turkish characteristics, not that it is better or worse, just different. An average Turkish guy might want his wife to adopt his religion and there is nothing wrong with it. I, on the other hand, would insist her to maintain her own culture overall. And so on so forth.

2. Again, I am still not sure why people keep taking this a personal issue. It´s not about me, but the whole general population and their relation with the foreigners (not necessarily Turks). Even the Title of this thread is quoted from a Turkish friend of mine, who is a seriously tall handsome and charming guy. I´d quote his authentic sentiments in Turkish but they are a bit too crass to express in this forum. There is virtually No interaction between foreigners and Americans here, and there is an invisible but highly perceptible WALL between them. So, with the existence of such wall, it´s not even possible to engage in a romantic environment since foreigners never get together with American women, who wouldn´t personally communicate with them. It´s an extremely COLD culture. They only talk with other Americans. And believe me, I have been to bars, cafes, pubs, libraries, private home parties etc, it just is not there. It has nothing to do with "looks", or "personality", or anything particularly to do with me, because no matter what country I´ve been in Europe, I never had this kind of isolation. I particularly had problems in Western Europe due to the prejudices and occasional hatred against Turks, but it was easily overcome by personal relations since Europeans, after all, were interested in communicating with foreigners as long as there was a common denominator. Americans, on the other hand, are simply indifferent and have no intention to communicate with you. I thought it was a "New England" story but it was also confirmed today by two friends of mine, one in Philadelphia, another in Texas.

3. "Non-Americans although biased against you at first, do not have reservations like the American girls do"..... that´s true but I didn´t have the same problem with Europeans in Europe! I understand your analogy about foreigners sticking together in a foreign land and I agree with it BUT It doesn´t explain why I didn´t have a problem socializing with Europeans (in Europe) and the invisible wall between foreigners and Americans here!

"Your point about American girls... cannot be valid as there are thousands of American women married to foreigners, including Turks"

Well, this is not a very correct reasoning since it´s not the absolute numbers that matter, but the "ratio" of such marriages. There may be thousands of Americans marrying foreigners, but I´d like to raise a few questions:

a) What percentage of Americans marry foreigners and how does it compare to other Western Countries, for example? There might be "thousands" of such marriages but there are "millions" of marriages in total! It´s obvious that it´s much lower than most European countries.

b) Who are those women marrying to? There are some "favored" nations such as the French, Italians and several English speaking countries which are treated differently.

c) What percentage of foreigners are married to Americans. Among all the foreigners around me, out of those I personally know (a few hundred), I have known only 2-3 such couples (except my own relatives), and those people have been living here for decades. 

I randomly searched and found this link, for example:

Why So Few American Women Many Foreigners?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070925210032AAWbcWw

Is it just me or are Americans foreigners? How many native American people are still present in the U.S. today? The vast majority of people are Irish-American, African-American, British-American, yes even Dutch-American (all those people whose name starts with Vander). America per definition is a country with mixed cultures.

yeah thats why actually its pretty strange that our friend thinks "american girls" find him unpleasant even though hes not a typical turkish turk.

Nobody finds me unpleasent Burak, you´re totally missing the point. I am really tired of saying that it´s not a personal issue, I never implied that it was, such an occasion never happened, and been telling that it is a problem of general attitude towards pretty much all foreigners. Please read my posts more carefully.

Yes yes all Americans are foreigners! By that logic, Turks are foreigners in Anatolia too (it used to belong to Byzatine. And yes the Dutch are foreigners in Netherlands too since they are simply a Germanic People who had migrated from the East! None of these change the general attitude of Americans towards foreigners, especially atttitudes of women towards foreign Men.

Let´s get a few things straight, newquaker because you are hardly an innocent victim in this thread.

Just so you understand - these are the first comments in this thread that are rude and they are all made you YOU:

“American Girls are the Worst”

“Americans, on the other hand, have always been an impossibility for me. First of all, they are ignorant and/or prejudiced against Turks and also unwilling to bother to even think about anything serious with me. This is actually a general pattern of behavior here against foreigners. The so called hospitality is completely fake and does not exist on personal level, and once they are done with their jobs, they pay zero attention to you.”

This is why I thought you are talking about yourself and not foreigners or general attitudes towards foreigners:

“I have been in the US for 3 years, I still hardly have any American friends. Don’t get me wrong, I have many friends, but the vast majority are either other foreigners or Turks like me.”

“I´d wish to engage with an American woman if I would continue my life in America.” n

“I´d like to meet and date American girls and maybe marry one someday. Now that I will live in the US, it only makes sense. I heard lots of love stories of Americans marrying Turks, but it hardly ever happens around me and I have had no luck so far.”G

You are not exactly an innocent victim with people picking on you.  Your very first post was unnecessarily rude.  If you want to make friends with Americans, you need to change your mind about them first of all.  People, and not just Americans, can feel when they are being judged and have a tendency to ignore/avoid you

Correct me if I am wrong but every single human being on Earth is a part of the general population.

If you are not sure about your comments being offensive just stop for a minute... change the subject of your sentence to a person/nation you like... and read it again... then you´ll get it for sure.

Don´t try to be overly political or talk general. It won´t lead you anywhere. It doesn´t work.

If you really want help to understand certain things or certain people, we should talk about certain situations.

Want answers? Ask questions!

One more thing: Giving hurtful or offensive title to a thread is not right. The reason doesn´t even matter.

If I were you I would change it. I am sure you can come up with something tasteful which still attracts the desired attention. Thanks. 

yeah but turks settled into anatolida 1100 years ago. and most of the anatolians living there were descendants from the first asian migration. and germanic tribes settled into netherlands 2800 years ago. but united states was founded uhm.. 200 years ago? by settlers, travelers, adventurers and outcasts from all over the world. their first and biggest founding stones has been built by different cultures (italians, norwegians, jews etc).

and plus if you want my opinion on the subject, i have discovered that its pretty easy to seduce an american lady with an exotic foreigner. just my thought.

Ridiculous!   Actually, I fell in love with my husband 20 years before I married him but circumstances brought us down very different roads for a while.  With that said, many women are very attracted to exotic foreigners and still some find a foreigner unattractive.  I´m with the first group!

I have to agree with Elisabeth here. Read what you wrote. It´s abusive and insulting and you wonder why American women are cold to you? You want to marry someone because you have decided to stay in the US? How romantic of you.

Actually, most Americans are very charmed and intrigued by foreigners. If you have a problem, it´s not the American women (of which there is an almost infinite variety) it´s you.

Why would you want to stay here anyway, if you find the women so unpleasant?

@Elisabeth

I am not trying to play the innocent here, and in no way, I implied that I never used words that may sound offensive, but my point was, my words are NEVER PERSONAL. So when I say something like "American Girls are the worst´, it does not necessarily include All women, but rather an average American woman, and if you are not like that, just don´t take it personal and leave it at that.

My words...

“I´d like to meet and date American girls and maybe marry one someday. Now that I will live in the US, it only makes sense. I heard lots of love stories of Americans marrying Turks, but it hardly ever happens around me and I have had no luck so far.”G

Do you see the sentence in bold? which says it hardly ever happens around me, implying that it is a general attitude towards foreigners And the fact that I have had no luck so far, is a product of this general indifference and discrimination. In this case, what do you expect from me, to be pleased with the discrimination we´re exposed to, or spontaneously express my feelings?

@MrsBee

Let me rephrase my sentence about the "general population" to state the obvious:

"the general local population in America"...... ok, let me be more explicit:

"the general local American population, at least, in New England Area, and possibly the US"... It should be crystal clear now.

I am absolutely the last person who will try to be political on this planet. I am excessively spontaneous, and in my opinion, trying too hard to please people by restructuring your sentences, or conceal the real tone of your thoughts is nothing but being political. I am not saying we should be blatantly crass, but at the end of the day, people will see, hear and speak what they will like to. I had a friend who was a master at political human relations. Everyone seemed to like him, but he was the most selfish person I´d met, who´d never even talk to you without a present or future interest.

And I am not trying to be general at all. I am literally giving personal examples of my friends, but the question here is about the general attitude. I do not have a current American Girlfriend, for example, that I am having problems with, so that I can ask questions about that very specific person/case.

@Burak7777777

We´re not really studying history here, are we? Turks came to Anatolia a millenium ago, so what? Americans came to America 5-6 centuries ago! So does that make them foreign? Most of the Americans around are here at least for 3-4 generations, and that´s enough to be rooted in there and be considered as local. On the other hand, who says Turks are not foreigners? My family is barely in their 3rd generation in Turkey! I have lots of relatives and neighbors in their 1-2nd generations. Remember the immigrations from Yugoslavia and Bulgaria???

@alameda

My original post might be "harsh" and to some of you, it might sound insulting, it is just the mere truth that the foreigners are facing here. I don´t think the least bit that it actually is insulting since we are the ones who are discriminated against, isolated and it´s the American society to blame. Again not everybody is like this of course, so if you´re not like that, just ignore it and stop blaming me in person, rather come here, observe the life of foreigners and how isolated they are, but of course, you guys need to shed your egocentric perspectives because everything said here, you guys take it personally!

I dont wonder why Americans dont wanna marry me, this wasn´t even mentioned. I wonder why Americans are so incredibly indifferent and discriminatory to virtually all foreigners including me. Besides, It´s not like I am talking to them with such content. Those words (American Girls are the worst" are not even my words, but my friend Omer´s!

Also, how on earth did you conclude that I want to "marry someone because I have decided to stay in the US"!!! Totally wrong! If anything, I´d like to marry a local person, no matter where I´d live, and it´s not like I decided to live here, I just have to. And because I have to live here, and because I want to marry, sooner or later, I just rather marry a local/American person to adapt to the culture better. You guys should learn to read the posts before posting something back!

"Why would you want to stay here anyway, if you find the women so unpleasant?"

I don´t find the women unpleasent! On the contrary I find them distinguishedly beautiful . I´m merely stating the fact that Americans, and especially American women are totally indifferent and discriminating towards foreigners,  which is rude and tactless to us. They might have nice personalities etc but they just are very cold against us!

theres big difference between 1100 years and 200 years. im sure you can simply see that by logic or i have to give another lesson not about history but genetics and antropology.

well you also love generalising. "most" americans are there for 3-4 generations? what you made a statistic research? you know %70 of american population? and wait, you also say most turks are there for only 1-3 generations? i actually found out most turks have been here for 700 years. most of their surname you can even trace back to middle asia. and comeon, people who re-migrated back from yugoslavya and bulgaria - from where do you think they settled into those countries in the first place?? and plus the anatolian families/tribes can trace back their line to 5000 years. they never moved.

shortly.. americans are yes they are themselves foreigners. thats why its called the new world and this is called the old world. if they were not foreigner, then they are foreigner now with 160456098456 pakistanis 563657357 chinese and 5464564564 indians in their country. youll just be another addition.

What are you trying to Prove my friend? That Turks are older than Americans? You got it!

Just note that America is discovered in the 15th century and the first immigrant Americans started to come then, ok? Otherwise, if you skip all that history you should go to the beginning of the 20th century when the TC was newly founded...

Just do not change my words... How do you read my words??? Please go back and read it again right now! but carefully this time!

well you also love generalising. "most" americans are there for 3-4 generations?

I said "Most of the Americans around (Me*) are here at least for 3-4 generations ", so they are old enough to be considered NOT FOREIGN... who cares 200 years or 1000 years or whatever!

you also say most turks are there for only 1-3 generations?

This really pisses me off! You READ IT PROPERLY first! Dont keep twisting my words. This is what I said originally:

My family is barely in their 3rd generation in Turkey! I have lots of relatives and neighbors in their 1-2nd generations. Remember the immigrations from Yugoslavia and Bulgaria???

I never said Most Turks are 1-3 generations, I was merely talking about my family, relatives and many of my neighbors!  We are Balkan immigrants, and we are basically foreign by your standards!!!  I mean my family is MORE foreign than Most Americans around me here. So foreignnes is not an American thing only! And you´re wrong, I am ethnically Macedonian and my roots go to Yugoslavia, and always been a part of that culture and genetic pool house. But culturally I deem myself Turkish and I am proud of it, just not a typical one! PLEASE READ CAREFULLY before posting, and remember this is not a history forum! If you´d like to discuss history, created another thread and I will contribute there!

in 15th century the american continent was being colonised. nothing to do with states.

but what i dont understand - why do you try to prove your point so hard about the fact that youre not a typical turk? why didnt you make this thread in a british forum then? i mean youre foreigner to turkey, foreigner to england, foreigner to usa, then uhm.. yeah? i dont get the point of this thread. thats why im having hard time writing exactly about what you say.

I am not a foreigner to Turkey, this is your claim, not mine. I was born in Turkey, spent most of life there and I am, by all means, a Turk. I am not trying to prove that I am not a typical Turk, stated it once and simply responding to claims, wouldn´t even talk back about it, had it not been brought up. I also made my reasons clear why I created this thread, please go ahead and read the original post.

comeon. ready back what you wrote. youre bulgarian, you family and people around you are only turk for 1-2 generations.. not typically turk.. what do you expect someone to undersand from that?

"oh hi im turk but not turk. american girls suck. let me defend myself"

youre fighting a losing war here man give it up

Are you illiterate or pretend to be one? Or just a smartass? Being ethnically "Macedonian" (not Bulgarian, you wiseacre!) is nothing to blame and you are practically insulting millions of Balkan Turks. I have never said I wasn´t a Turk. ATATURK was ethnically Albanian, so was MEHMET AKIF, who is from the same area as my ancestors! But hey, you wouldn´t even know that there are thousands of Albanians living in Macedonia! Now are you telling me that Ataturk and Mehmet Akif are not Turks!? You are being utterly racist, and thanks for showing your true colors. You are probably just a 10 year old kid anyway! 

Don´t come up with such ridiculous, ignorant, and worthless pieces of words, you´re wasting my precious time. And that war is in your head! I have no war to fight for. Next time I won´t be so courteous.

This thread is going nowhere. If you don´t want it to be locked or deleted; please cool down and stop being on the verge of flaming and insults.

Burak, newquaker´s ethnic roots is none of anyone´s businss. You may criticize his attitude but to link that to him being a Bulgarian or whatever is nothing but offensive...

As a woman I can see why some people on this forum are not attractive to American women Not pointing fingers, but somebody who says "you don´t like me, because you all suck!" isn´t charming.

This is just a herasay, no clear proof of this claim. On the other hand the ancestor´s of his mother dates vack to yörük´s of Karaman which she clearly emphasized that she was proud of. Her ancestors were first migrated to town of Vodina together with many Türkmens, later 130 years before her birth, family moved to Thessalonica. 

Thank you, but you didn´t have to rephrase the sentence. I understand what you were trying to say. I just jokingly pointed out the inconsistency in your posts.

About changing the title: it´s not about pleasing other people. It is about right and wrong. The title is cleary racist and sexist. I am pretty surprised that you are not able to see it and that it hasn´t been moderated yet.

Why are you insulting people? Starting off with criticizing a whole nation (state) because you (and other foreign people around you) have had bad personal experiences is definitely not being courteous.

You do sound unpleasant, crude and rude.

Your words don´t make any sense.

What is your problem? What kind of suggestions are you asking for? Why do you try to solve this problem by talking to foreigners on Internet instead of talking to locals in your physical life?

You know what? Don´t feel like you have to answer. Feel free to call me names, too. I don´t even care.

This is really not the point. Who cares what ethnicity he was, as long as he felt Turkish. Everyone (especially in that region) is mixed that people only cared about your religion and the language you were speaking. To me, Mehmet Akif was more Turk than most people although he was technically Albanian. The same way, my grandparents were technically Macedonian, but who cares? I was born in Turkey and grew with Turkish culture and that´s what matters.

What is Inconsistent in my posts? If you follow them from the very begining , they are perfectly consistent and make perfect sense, and of course, because I´ve been posting frequently and in a lengthy fashion, sometimes, I might forget to include some minute details or make typos. Otherwise they don´t become inconsistent just because you guys disagree and find it unpleasent.

I said again and again, that the generalization does not necessarily apply to everyone, there are always exceptions, but it is a good summary of the average. I also indicated that it does not necessarily apply to the whole country but at least the New England Area.

What do you mean, "call you names?" I haven´t called anyone names or targeted anyone personally here except that Burak guy, who was being utterly personally insulting and racist. On the contrary, you guys were targeting me personally. Maybe you missed the point but post #45 is intended for him only, not you guys.

And I wonder who doesn´t make sense but react abruptly with such "counter-offensive" attitude? My comments might for sure sound unpleasent, since it is a "criticism", why is that an insult? Now that sentence,

"New England culture is extremely cold to foreigners, and people are really acting fake in most relations to foreigners and dont want to be involved with them."

It´s for sure a strong criticism, and the gist of what I´ve been saying, but how on earth is it an insult? The fakeness of the human relations is even admitted by Many of my American friends!

If you´d like to help me for example, explain to me why it might seem or sound "fake" or "cold" to us, although it actually isn´t (allegedly). Instead of just blaming me and thousands of others for being rude or crude just because I am criticizing the culture, just tell me YOUR perspective, why things are the way they are, try to create an empathy, and maybe I will end up thinking, "Oh, maybe I was being unfair, maybe I would behave the way they behave in their shoes..."

This is how a civil conversation sounds. You guys need to be able to suck it up and overbear the criticisms you incur just like I was able to keep an open-mind and tolerate all the racisms in Europe or the clear discriminations I get exposed here. I still think people are inherently decent, there is just something that screws up their attitudes towards foreigners, and I am trying to understand it.

I agree this was not the point, I just corrected you since you used the claim that Atatürk was ethnically Albanian to prove your case. 

I was just trying to show that not everyone in Anatolia was there for a millenium. Just like Americans, Turks were in a non-stop influx of immigration (though with local and surrounding populations). And Anatolia is not necessarily the ancestral home to all Turks of Turkey. In my family´s case, our homeland was the Balkans, not Anatolia although it is to me now. And if you ask me, 3 generations is more than enough to be considered local, so a few centuries or a millenium doesn´t make much difference. I was just sarcastically referring that, by his logic, most of my relatives need to be considered foreign, and even Ataturk and Mehmet Akif were allegedly foreign then, being actually natives of the Balkans.

im wasting your time? youre the one making such a useless thread. i didnt say i didnt count balkanians as turks, i just pointed out that you rejected being a typical turk by showing your ethnic background. i made tons of posts about how all those people have been turkish.

and if you really want to insult me pm me your phone number. we can take care of this outside of the website. but if you dont then stop using this language. i am talking civil and epect you to be so  and plus you have insulted ALL american women. if i had any american relatives i wouldnt even bother with such a worthless thread.

Newquaker you used the word "ethnically" without a proof which is what I oppessed to, that is all...

This thread has been locked because of the hostility it has created among classmates. 

Regards,

Elisabeth