I wish that there is at least one woman who writes here that she expects her man to cook, clean, share all responsibilities, be very tolerant to her, understand that she will watch all her favorite programs whenever she wants to, that her female friends are very important to her and she will go out to see them whenever she likes, that her man cannot look at any other woman and that he has to make sacrifices for her all the time, that he cannot go out or make decisions without talking with her first, that he has to be a good father, that he has to love her family and treat her parents like his own, that he must make her feel like a real woman and that he shouldn't expect too much from her!
Well - she is definitely a modern woman (wonder how many men are modern enough for her - I'm afraid that man will not be Turkish heheh)

why there must always be a dominator? where is to be equal? where is respect to eachother

Bravo Catwoman I refer you to my posts in Turkish men and attitudes to women.

the saying "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" comes to mind !!

Can someone translate into Turkish that phrase-I am a beginner !!

well, as long as you don't start with the attitude that he expects her to be his possession and almost slave while allowing himself to do whatever he wants!

Woovv! Catwoman! I have noticed that your ex-post actually consists of one sentence!

Sui Generis - good job. Equality and respect without the man feeling less of a man when he cooks, cleans and stays home while she goes out with her friends. I'm not saying that it's ok for her to be all over all her male friends, don't get it wrong!

What strikes me however is that nobody mentioned 'equality and respect' when talking about the attitude of turkish men to women but talking about the attitude of women to men, women are so understanding in the fact that in a relationship it doesn't matter who does what and they are even willing to do all the work and accept all the man's freaky expectations!

I believe no sane woman who is self-conscious and has at least some self-esteem would ever put up with a man who limits her in any respect. The problems we read about on this forum seem to derive from some kind of emotional masochism. How can you expect that somebody who makes you lose your temper in the initial phase of your relationship to turn into Prince Charming? Girls - such things don't happen! And it doesn't concern Turkish guys only. I bet there are caring and loving men all around the world. Ones who don't think a woman's world is restricted to kitchen and bedroom, ones who share and not only impose duties and , finally, ones who can give back as much as they get.

Yes Daydreamer... I hope so too, but it doesn't look like we can find him in the thread 'turkish men and attitudes to women'. Hopefully it's not only us wishing to find such a man while his wishes about women are quite different...

Can we ever find one like this? That would mean finding an ideal and there's always fear of being bored to death by one

quite an exciting topic, isn't it?

YES but everyones idea of being "ideal" is differnt...

has someone called me?

Sure Ceyda, but I seriously doubt any woman would dream of a guy who spends time on the couch with a can of beer in one hand and a remote control in the other. A guy who never listens but HAS to be listened to, a guy who believes he OWNS you and by marrying whom you obey to anything he can expect of you. Or..am I wrong? :-S

Laydeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees - they are always ideal in the first six months or so- some can keep it up for a year or two. The key for us is to know that we can move on when its no longer good for us just as easily as they do.

All the laydees who're independent hold your hands up at me!!! Listen to Beyonce and Destiny's child-they know where its at!!

no no Cyrano the goose does not equal idiots - it is just a reference to gender so what is good for a man is good for a woman and vice versa

teşekkürler

sure in both terms they are humanbeing and they have some same needs... but when it turns out to be a couple or to marry... things change nothing could be as it would be in the past.. becoz both are responsible from what they do theirselves and responsible from the dones by their partners... so both sides needs to give from theirselves some less they need to adopt eachother.. but you know theory always stays at words and the best is to live and see.. well hope you will find your "click" sooner or later good luck

Sui. you sound like an absolute sweetie. You will be very happy in your life and your marriage i think. Good for you. a modern man in turkey! BRAVO!

not all turkish guys are like sui.. i am not

Sui - thanks, nice ideas, I agree.

you mean, unlike me?
he is kind since i know him.. but i think a man is a man.. and even your precious sui has that genes of the cavemen.. there are no man that could satisfy women 100 percent..
sometimes women like to have a man that she can not anticipate and foresee.. anger of a man might seem so sweet sometimes.. or their kindness might bore you after a while..
there are three kinds of men outside.. there are guys that you might hate his manners but fall in love with them.. and there are some others that you will like but get bored of them and there are guys like me.. you both hate them and get bored of'em

cavemen genes? what the hell is that

thats the gene that made you ask this question starting with "what the hell.." instead of "what the daisy is that?"
caveman.. you know.. our ancient fathers.. hunting for their kids, feeding THEIR women..

well if you think that every bodies ancestors lived in caves years ago well lets skip this our common father Adam well its slang dude not that cavemen style and i know you have those genes too

Are you saying that you're a cavemen patience? Then you might be somewhat right.
I suppose if you believe in the theory of evolution, we must also have some bacteria genes. But wasn't it a couple million years ago???
One more thing - any progress comes through pain... Cavemen must have extincted for Homo sapiens to come to existence, but sometimes we like to be cavemen, how convenient to ignore our personal responsibility as thinking creatures.

slangs are arised from the underground places which are the caves of our century and even Adam was an undergrounder..
yes.. i am a caveman.. i am not proud nor ashamed of that.. and that is the most evident heritage that i will leave to my children..
everyone of us has this.. come on! look at the wars all over the world.. fights between you and your mom or your friends.. the greed of possesion.. all that jealousy.. even when you love someone.. where do you they are coming from? of course the genes of our caveman ancestors

i am not talking about evolution.. i am saying that we are just the same as couple million years ago.. we are still living in the caves.. more comfortable than ever.. but a cave is a cave.. and a man is a man we still need to hunt.. and deserve our woman.. weaks get the weak ones.. and strongs get what he wants

Yes, we all have some biological instincs (which are usually learnt anyway) but we also have a big brain to use and rise above the cavemen inside us (well, 'hopefully' seems to be the right word to end with ), instead of falling into the convenient belief that this is what we are predetermined to behave like. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that we are learning creatures? Can you understand all the consequenses of this fact???

slangs are arised from the underground places which are the caves of our century and even Adam was an undergrounder..
yes.. i am a caveman.. i am not proud nor ashamed of that.. and that is the most evident heritage that i will leave to my children..
everyone of us has this.. come on! look at the wars all over the world.. fights between you and your mom or your friends.. the greed of possesion.. all that jealousy.. even when you love someone.. where do you think they are coming from? of course the genes of our caveman ancestors

If you need an excuse to do as you like, then you found one!

Jealousy, possessiveness, greed.... looks to me like these things only cause harm and also looks like if we want, we can completely control them in ourselves, the cavemen genes don't determine our behaviour (unless we want them to).

its somekinda basic html code if you put QUOTE and /QUOTE seperately from the other pairs in square phranthesis.. you can do it... hope it is clear

well but jealousity is something like to be aware of what you want.. and everything is needed in its enough level

Well it seems to me, that Captain Caveman (Patience) and Sui Generis have something in common. Both will have their women doing what they want them to.

Patience's woman (if he gets one) will do what he wants her to because she will fear his 'caveman' behaviour if she doesn't. He will beat her, pull her around by the hair and shout in her face if she doesn't meet his demands. She will therefore do what he wants, but inside she will be dying and crying and wishing he will be trampled on by a herd of wooly mammoths!

Sui's woman, will do everything she can to please him, because she loves him so much! Her every waking moment will be filled with pleasure as she seeks to bring a smile to his face. She will respect him. Their lives will be full of passion and peace.

This is written with what we English call 'tongue in cheek' it is an idiom, which means you are saying something near the truth, but with a touch of irony. i hope you all get my meaning!

Lyndie - how funny .

btw captain caveman was one of my favorites from hanna and barbara series

and i want to believe as you are a fortune teller lyndie eeehh? but we will see...

i have met a lot of women.. and i think i know enough about them.. i think sui knows that too
women like to be leaded.. there might be a very little exceptions of course.. (girls here can hold on to this word as they are exceptions) but want what i told on my previous posts.. of course they want it in a soft way.. rationalize this.. "control me.. but ask my opinion too" or "i ll do anything you want to get under your wings but make me feel that care about my needs"..
thats it.. this is the first law of their nature..
say it to yourself, girls. you want your men strong.. and its not wrong or bad.. just accept it.. and get happier
and even if there are men that seems caring for their womens needs, they are just manipulating them.. sometimes with a smile or with some passionate words.. they just do it the way the women can accept.. but they (we) do it.. or they are just weak that they can not do what they want.. but we all want it
love may come in different ways.. i m not telling that love does not exist.. it does exist.. but satisfaction comes first.. satisfying the needs comes first..

i need to leave now.. but i ll be back
so tomorrow..
girls, i love you.. all of you

You might have met lots of women, but another thing is whether you learned anything from those meetings or not!
Actually...by your writing, patience, you show the opposite - that you don´t know enough about women!

Maybe he knows about womans how he needed to know about them... so he doesnt want to know about them more huh?...

Why not? I agree with patience in what he said: women like to be protected, under the men's wings and like strong men.
Being protected and accepting his protection isn't something bad or something that makes you smaller.
Why don't you admit it to yourself and instead why do you pretend to feel and show that you're very strong without your men? I think it will hurt you more. Needing someone isn't something to be ashamed of, we're to complete each other. And men like to take your affection in return.
I can't respect a man if he cannot protect and own me. (don't misunderstand that here owning is like owning an object)

very brave...good for you mltm that you aware of the law of humanbeing nature... hmmm this reminded me the novel White Fang...

Well most women like their men to be strong, but strength can be shown in many different ways.

It is a strong man who can take the time to understand his girls feelings, it is a strong man who can put himself in someone else's shoes and see life from their eyes.
It is a strong man who can ask himself. How would i feel if I were that person?

Of course you want your man to protect you and take you under his wing (actually I rather like that expression), but taking someone under their wing doesn't mean you now 'own' them, like a car or a dog! People should be together because they want to be in the same place as their partner always. No one should be with someone because they 'have' to or just because they are married to them.

Patience, will you stay out all night with your friends, drinking and talking and then come home when you want. Wake up your woman to feed you and satisfy you? Will she get up to you because she wants to or because she has to? Do you care whether she wants to or only that she gets out of bed for you?

Will she make your food with love, or will she make it as a duty? Which will you choose? Which will taste better in your mouth?

Will she do all her wife duties with love and passion or will she just be a robot with no feelings. Will she look at the ceiling in your room and think that it needs painting or will she look into your eyes and love you? Which will feel better for you?

I think you might have known a lot of women canim, but did you really KNOW them? I don't think so....

i have heard so many turkish boys say that they don't like turkish girls because all they want is their money, well maybe this is because that is the only good they can get from their husbands.

Their is a great turkish idiom...
" aclik kapidan girince, ask bacadan kacarmis" translates as " when hunger comes through the door, love leaves through the chimmey. Well maybe real love was never in the house in the first place, and when the caveman doesn't come home with the buffalow, then cavewoman will go looking for someone who does!


By

Yes, in countries where women are oppressed, they start to understand and accept that. 94% of women in Egypt unerstand (and agree) why their husbands beat them. If you brainwashed the woman that the men is strong and she is weak, then she'll subconsciously look for an overprotective, jealous caveman. I suggest that Mr caveman looks deeper then at the looks of the girls he meets in the clubs or in the villages. Maybe it's his ego that needs to feel that he is so strong and powerful that is looking for weak, naive girls and he thinks that all the girls are like that.

and of course Somalian men believe absolutely that it is their right to impose circumscision on their women to keep them faithful, and even worse. the mothers also sooooo believe this is the right thing to do, that they impose this on their daughters and so it goes on and on .....

I think the problem is everyone sees weakness and strength from different views.
When I talk about strength, it's definitely not using your physical power on the women by beating her. I'm against abuse. Or the strength of men I talk is not something like treating her like a dog or slave, giving her orders, preventing her from working or seeing her friends.

But there're always limits in romantic relations, and the roles are different. I can't demand for unlimited freedom, I should know if something disturbs him and I should respect his disturbance and try not to do it even if I would like to do it. But it's the same for him also, it doesn't mean that he should look at other women and come home late or something. It's mutual sacrificies. For me a man should feel disturbed and should not let her go to a bar or disco on her own, if he doesn't feel any disturbance, it disturbs me. Because there's a very obvious fact that there're a lot of men in those kind of places that annoy you. But if it's a very special day, there can be an exception.

If he doesn't feel any jealousy, it frustrates me actually. I should see my man ready to fight for me. Why do women like muscled men, because it means that he can protect you, this comes from your insincts. You cannot deny the nature, the testesteron or ostrogene, hormones rule our lives. A woman always desires for a good father for her potential children, and security is the most important thing for that, and security requires power, so women look for power in men.

I love how you put your points across Lyndie.I enjoy reading your posts.

I think control and domination is not just a Turkish "man thing" my Mother was regularly beaten, raped and humiliated by my Father. Woken up when he came home from the pub and made to get up and cook for him and his man friends.We ran awy in the middle of the night and he recently died a lonely old man!

This is 2005 nearly 2006- women should not have to put up with such treatment- in the UK, in Turkey, in Eygpt in any place or country.

I agree completely, I work with violent men who abuse their wives. It is astonishing the things they believe are like 1st laws of nature.
They ACTUALLY think that it is their right to control and dominate their partners. It is quite extraordinary. Problem is when other women continue to promote this.

I met a girl in Izmir recently. A lovely modern liberal girl, who actually represented Turkey in the Olympics in martial arts. She would wash the feet of her husband every single time he came into the house. He would let her know he was coming and she would have everything ready and waiting. When he came in, she would take off his shoes and wash and dry his feet and put his slippers on. I was so shocked. When i asked her why she did this, she said it was because she loved him so much it was a pleasant duty for her. she loved to make him feel so happy in this way. her husband was a lovely man and they were very happily married. she said that her mother did it for her father and her mother before her etc etc.

What she couldn't accept was that by continuing this practice, she was betraying all those women who didn't love their husbands, who only did it because they HAD to or get beaten. This is how women can also betray other women.

I have heard mothers of abused daughters say, well she probably deserved the beating! She wasn't lookiing after him properly.

It seems to me that only people who actually experienced something tragic can see that they ought to be critical of the nonverbal rules in their communities and see the other side of the story.

About the topic of strong - the only way that men are naturally stronger then women is physically. This is something biological, genetic. This is something that the man takes pride in and it makes him feel powerful. The problem is when the man starts thinking that because he's physically stronger, he is stronger in general, which is most of the time a lie. Usually, a man who has ego (personality) problems and low self esteem, tries to prove so much that he is 'oh so strong' in all the possible ways and he thinks that his physical strength implies anything about his emotional or intellectual strength. In the past people were not very well educated (or at all) and they believed all kinds of bullshit as holy or natural or whatever. In the middle ages, people were burnt alive and everybody thought that it was normal, because people failed to question the rules their societies. It was a true, brutal, bloody, cruel, primitive fight of ignorance. They believed that if you get sick it's a sign from God that you're a bad person. Now we know how it really is, so the disease has not changed but our knowledge and understanding of it - can change and it should, that's our responsibility as human beings.
These days we don't really need the man to be physically strong for our protection. We don't live in the caveman era and the most important strength and power is the one that comes from our minds.

I think that some men are confusing what women are really looking for. They think that women are looking for a strong man taht can lead her, whereas in reality the woman is looking for a competent man. Man who can make decisions and stand up for them, who can take his life seriously and make effort to be productive in it. A man who later will be able to take care of the family as a father and a husband.
Strong to deal with life, not strong to fight, if you know what I mean... caveman...

mltm you sound like patience in your post, how funny .

I will answer this in a PM-the discussion is perhaps getting very heavy and I'm not sure how people feel about that.

It is fine Miss C- I want to reply to you I have sent a PM to you.

ok then... thanks for the PM... :S

guys, controlling and manipulating women, like e.g. patience said.. isn´t that a terribly lonely and dissatisfying kind of life..??

by the way, i don´t need to manipulate people, ´cause they like being with me anyway..

you really do not understand, do you? i love women.. and respect them.. everyone deserves respect.. but respect is something and being dominant in a relationship is something else.. and just like mltm said, being leaded is not something bad or despising.. i dont beat women.. i never do.. and its not something that you makes you strong but on the contrary it shows your weakness in many ways..
i believe in caring and tender relationships, too.. but we have some wrong ideas about the true love.. even in fair relationships there are times that someone should take the control.. you might ask "so why not women would take the control?".. it could be.. but only in conditions that the men are weak.. and i am not trying to humiliate women here.. but i know the strength and the beauty of trusting someone and doing what he asks you to.. it is about true love.. what is it when you give and expect the same from the other? i tell you.. its not love.. its maybe dealing.. a kind of business.. but not love.. for having the true love you should know how to trust.. even it doesnt make sense all the time you should have this attitude.. being protected or obeying someone is something special..
i am telling that again.. i am a caveman.. and i can love my woman with the caveman's heart and this will make her feel great.. you should try it.. or you will always be looking for the true love and asking yourself why life has treated so cruel to you..
the biggest lie of our century is that women and men are equal.. men are stronger and women are beautifull

you sound like a great person....

i am, indeed..

i´m sure you´re a nice person, patience.. but maybe you´re just missing out on sth when you don´t dare to be weak sometimes...?

i have my own weaknesses like anyone else.. but i have other things that i can cover this.. having weaknesses is something and acting weak is something else.. for example i never ask for help.. because it might make me seem weak.. i know.. even this is a weakness.. i mean not to be able to ask for help.. but you know how men are.. our biggest weakness is that we can not admit this..
dont tell me that showing my weaknesses will help me finding the one who will love me the way i am.. but listen! no girl would really like that.. so its not mens fault being like this.. its because of women.. we are just trying to give what they want from us..

i personally dont think that this is a "male-female" thang either... i mean, i can also say that i dont like to ask for help... and when i do.. its usually urgent! or sth which i really need! and as u probably know, i am female... so maybe everyone should stop stereotyping people because of their gender. that is also sth. which irritates me because i believe that everyone in one indiviual whom should be looked upon and judged by the person who they are, not what gender, nationality, religion or whatever that they are.

i know you are a female.. and a pretty one anyway..
i dont think like you do.. gender, religion, culture.. these are important things.. men and women are different.. even when we are 2 years old, we are different..
we all want to feel unique.. but in most sides, we are just the same.. it may not sound nice to you.. but thats the way it is.. i want the same things that Adam wanted.. i want to rule over the world.. and i want Eve beside me.. i can stand against god or all the other sacred things for these.. we all want the same.. some finds.. some doesnt even have the courage to look for this and try to cover this up with something else; like their jobs, cats, gardening, sex, science.. but as i always say; "a man is a man.. and a woman is a woman at the end".. this not good or bad.. this is the way it is..
of course you have a different place in your gender.. thats where love gets into the subject.. but i am a man and you are a woman.. and if we get involved each other, we will have our different places in that relationship.. (i am not asking you out.. dont worry)

yes, of course men are different then women. after all one is male and another is female, one gives birth to children, another doesn't, one is pretty, another is physically strong. individuals are also different from each other and they have good relationships when they match according to their needs - in one relationship the man is better at making decisions and in another one - the woman is the boss. it is all fine when these things are decided freely and consciously and not as a result of some weird cultural thing that says that the woman is supposed to be her husband's slave, sex object or any other despicable thing.
you are a cavemen patience and hopefully you'll find a woman who will enjoy your attitude but also in case your behaviour is even less nice then your talking hopefully she will know her rights and will not let you hurt or disrespect her in any way.

i am a caveman.. no need to argue.. when i look at a woman, i think of what she can do for me.. not what i can do for her.. i will give as long as i take.. or maybe a little bit more sometimes for the good sake of our past.. but when i quit receiving, the end is certain sonner or later! but you should really understand what i mean by "receiving".. its sometimes sexual, sometimes moral, sometimes consciencial or emotional.. i am not just looking for a woman that i can lie with.. thats never enough for the caveman we have feelings too.. and believe me, cavemen are not always despotic.. there are much easier ways to get what we want.. ways that will not bother our consciences.. and when you see a gentleman that you might think there are no caveman genes in him, you should know that he is just using those ways that i told you..
do you think anyone will ever decide by her own will to give the strenght and the control to the other person in any relationship? noone does that.. one just get it.. and the other one just rationalizes the situation.. "oh, he loves me very much", "he helps me with the cook", "i am the one who decided on the color of our paintings", "he really satisfies me" etc..
i am not trying to tell that i am different.. we are all cavemen with our own ways to get what we want.. your loving father has that.. your beloved has that.. and you are all being used, ladies.. or you are so lonely

Well Patience! This is a fascinating insight into the male psyche! Who uses who? You say that all ladies are being used by their men? Well maybe sometimes tatlı you are also being used OR maybe you are afraid to choose the kind of woman who could use you.

İ think you have not yet met your match in love and life. When you do she will eat you alive. You will be so in love and she will be cool. You wıll worship the ground that she walks on and she will treat you like a worm! Ãœffff canım benım. Wait for this lady and you will beg her to use you!

by the way i need to say that most of the times MY WOMANs satisfaction is really connected with my satisfaction directly.. so its not just "gimme gimme" thing.. we feed them and we make them feel comfortable and unique

i never thought that this topic will take 10 pages.. woowww how those women affect by you patience you damn cavemen but indeed he is some right at some points anybody is rite about his or her points.. as i got from the way of our talkings we are supposed as behind those " men" whom i cant describe as human that bites drinks swears shouts and dies... yea a typo of living we cant judge god bless the ppl around them... but we arent supporting those guys... as all the ppl in this forum are wellknowledged and clever... so for sure we are some modern and have respect in relations... but as years pass some values are changing unfortunately... and the reality is changing patience has some role on showing those realities... as he is so open in talking... if you see him he is not that kinda cavemen believe me...
well whatever... keep peace buddies you are all saying truth but reality is hard to accept isnt it... so good luck..

patience you must be kidding.
Yes, as I am looking for, most women look for a caring and protective men, but the things you said are very selfish demands. For me a protective man is never selfish, that's why it would make me feel safe. He should want the good things for me, not anything that would make me feel sad or suppress my personality. I should be satisfied emotionally by my man, and should see that I'm not always the giving one. Otherwise I would be a fool. I'm not his object, if I cared for him and dedicated myself to him, this would be because I saw that he was doing sacrificies for me as well.

oh my god! another freuds are coming to world... whatever i will be late to my event... nice to watch The Soup Opera

now you are talking! thats exactly what i mean..
obeying someone that you think its bigger and stronger than you is not despising all the time..
i am longing for that one woman who will make me drink from the waters of the river of pain and misery that kind of a woman is the dream of all men.. even the kings in the deep inside want s to have that special woman who will reign over him.. use him with a very passionate way that we never had..
so my lovely Lyndie, we came to the first place again.. we are using you for our needs of being used..

maybe patience just needed some attention from the ladies..?
so, after all, the caveman´s way seems to work well, doesn´t it

look.. i am not an animal.. i really care about what my woman needs.. respect them.. and sometimes i may decide to give up my needs for hers.. without any self-interest.. but even than i would have a selfish motivation.. i want to know that i am strong and good enough to make her happy.. because she is MINE! think about that.. why wouldnt i treat everybody around me just like i treat her.. so why am i treating her different? if i were a lovely poerson i should have done the same thing to all.. but i treat her special.. why? because she is mine! or i want her to be mine.. thats it!
but that is still true love.. wanting her to be yours only.. being jealous.. the disappointment you feel when you see her wanting something different from you.. that crush..
anyway.. i need to stop before getting more blue

jealous?
well if you want we can go out and fight for them

Ãœfff canim benim ya!
İ could teach you a thing or two about women

for example ...look ramayan...and discuss how he behave to the women...and understand how turkıshmen treat women....

hehe nice subject

hey, i know women
i am not treating girls like the way i write here i am the most gentle man outside i know the right things to do.. but even i do that -care about their needs or showing respect to them, i cant deny why i do it..
i love women and care about them.. i really do.. in such a way that you might not understand.. but still.. someones using some others..

Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy the true colours of our new frıend begın to show. Not such a caveman then! More of a pussy cat ın sabre tooth tıger clothıng

You are an exciting adversary Patience! I look forward to many more skirmishes (çarpışmalar?)with you

dear patience, being a girl myself, we don´t have to fight over them...
but maybe my talk was so strong and dominant you thought only a man can do it?? hahaha

woman! i can be anything to get what i want..
not only a caveman.. but a smart one i am

anyway.. i gotta go now..
the caveman goes back to his cave for some sleep to rest.. so that i can hunt better tomorrow..

Happy hunting Tiger - go get 'em!