I love how you put your points across Lyndie.I enjoy reading your posts.

I think control and domination is not just a Turkish "man thing" my Mother was regularly beaten, raped and humiliated by my Father. Woken up when he came home from the pub and made to get up and cook for him and his man friends.We ran awy in the middle of the night and he recently died a lonely old man!

This is 2005 nearly 2006- women should not have to put up with such treatment- in the UK, in Turkey, in Eygpt in any place or country.

I agree completely, I work with violent men who abuse their wives. It is astonishing the things they believe are like 1st laws of nature.
They ACTUALLY think that it is their right to control and dominate their partners. It is quite extraordinary. Problem is when other women continue to promote this.

I met a girl in Izmir recently. A lovely modern liberal girl, who actually represented Turkey in the Olympics in martial arts. She would wash the feet of her husband every single time he came into the house. He would let her know he was coming and she would have everything ready and waiting. When he came in, she would take off his shoes and wash and dry his feet and put his slippers on. I was so shocked. When i asked her why she did this, she said it was because she loved him so much it was a pleasant duty for her. she loved to make him feel so happy in this way. her husband was a lovely man and they were very happily married. she said that her mother did it for her father and her mother before her etc etc.

What she couldn't accept was that by continuing this practice, she was betraying all those women who didn't love their husbands, who only did it because they HAD to or get beaten. This is how women can also betray other women.

I have heard mothers of abused daughters say, well she probably deserved the beating! She wasn't lookiing after him properly.

It seems to me that only people who actually experienced something tragic can see that they ought to be critical of the nonverbal rules in their communities and see the other side of the story.

About the topic of strong - the only way that men are naturally stronger then women is physically. This is something biological, genetic. This is something that the man takes pride in and it makes him feel powerful. The problem is when the man starts thinking that because he's physically stronger, he is stronger in general, which is most of the time a lie. Usually, a man who has ego (personality) problems and low self esteem, tries to prove so much that he is 'oh so strong' in all the possible ways and he thinks that his physical strength implies anything about his emotional or intellectual strength. In the past people were not very well educated (or at all) and they believed all kinds of bullshit as holy or natural or whatever. In the middle ages, people were burnt alive and everybody thought that it was normal, because people failed to question the rules their societies. It was a true, brutal, bloody, cruel, primitive fight of ignorance. They believed that if you get sick it's a sign from God that you're a bad person. Now we know how it really is, so the disease has not changed but our knowledge and understanding of it - can change and it should, that's our responsibility as human beings.
These days we don't really need the man to be physically strong for our protection. We don't live in the caveman era and the most important strength and power is the one that comes from our minds.

I think that some men are confusing what women are really looking for. They think that women are looking for a strong man taht can lead her, whereas in reality the woman is looking for a competent man. Man who can make decisions and stand up for them, who can take his life seriously and make effort to be productive in it. A man who later will be able to take care of the family as a father and a husband.
Strong to deal with life, not strong to fight, if you know what I mean... caveman...

mltm you sound like patience in your post, how funny .

I will answer this in a PM-the discussion is perhaps getting very heavy and I'm not sure how people feel about that.

It is fine Miss C- I want to reply to you I have sent a PM to you.

ok then... thanks for the PM... :S

guys, controlling and manipulating women, like e.g. patience said.. isn´t that a terribly lonely and dissatisfying kind of life..??

by the way, i don´t need to manipulate people, ´cause they like being with me anyway..