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Turkish soldiers killed at border today...
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140.       teaschip
3870 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 04:32 am

By VOLKAN SARISAKAL and CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA, Associated Press Writers
42 minutes ago

SIRNAK, Turkey - Dozens of Turkish military vehicles streamed toward the Iraqi border with heavy artillery and ammunition Monday after Kurdish guerrillas killed a dozen soldiers and claimed to have captured eight in an intensifying crisis threatening to spill into Iraq.

Arab nations joined the U.S. and Europe in urging Turkey's government not to attack suspected guerrilla bases in the Kurdish region of northern Iraq, while Turkish citizens rallied across the country demanding action against the rebels.

Iraq's president claimed the guerrillas would announce a cease-fire. But the rebels denied that, saying a cease-fire they declared in June was still in place.

With tensions worsening, the Turkish foreign minister said his government was pursuing a diplomatic solution to halt rebel operations out of havens in Iraq, but warned that it wanted to see results soon if an escalation in military action was to be avoided.

An AP Television News cameraman saw a convoy of 50 Turkish army vehicles, loaded with soldiers and weapons, including 155-mm howitzers, heading from the southeastern town of Sirnak toward Uludere, closer to the border.

Trucks towing artillery pieces covered with camouflage tarpaulins were trailed by khaki-colored trucks that appeared to be loaded with ammunition. Armored personnel carriers with helmeted Turkish soldiers manning heavy machine guns escorted the trucks.

It was unclear if the vehicles were joining troops fighting with rebels on Turkish soil or were preparing for a possible cross-border offensive, which was authorized by Turkey's parliament last week.

At least five U.S.-made transport helicopters ferrying soldiers and Cobra helicopter gunships also were seen flying toward the frontier.

The Pentagon has said 60,000 Turkish soldiers have deployed along the border. The north is one of the few relatively calm Iraqi regions, and the U.S. fears an incursion by its ally Turkey could worsen the Iraq war.

After weeks of stepped-up clashes between Turkish troops and rebels, tensions racheted even higher after a guerrilla ambush Sunday killed 12 soldiers and left eight missing. The army said 34 rebels died in a counterattack.

The rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party said its fighters captured the missing soldiers — a claim that would make it the largest seizure since 1995, when guerrillas grabbed eight soldiers, took them to northern Iraq and held them for two years before letting them go.

"Right now, these soldiers are hostages in the hands of our forces," a senior PKK commander, Bahoz Erdal, was quoted as telling the pro-Kurdish Firat News Agency in Belgium. "Their health condition is good. One of them was slightly injured, but was being taken care of by our medics."

The claim was sure to intensify the army's search for the soldiers.

Protesters waving the red and white Turkish flag demonstrated in cities nationwide to demand a tough response to the weekend ambush.

"Martyrs never die! The nation will never be divided!" demonstrators shouted in Ankara, the capital. "Martyr" is a term used by Turks for soldiers killed in combat.

Others chanted "Down with the PKK and USA!" Many Turks are angry at Washington over what they consider the failure of U.S. and Iraqi forces to honor pledges to crack down on the group, which is listed by the U.S. as a terrorist movement.

Iraqi Kurds allied with Turkish forces in the 1990s to fight the PKK, a rival in their northern enclave at a time when Saddam Hussein ruled the rest of Iraq. But Iraqi Kurds are now reluctant to attack their ethnic brethren from Turkey, fearing the Turks want to curb Kurdish aspirations for self-rule.

The government said it would pursue diplomacy before it sends troops across the rugged frontier.

"Our preference is diplomacy, but the military option is no doubt a method in the struggle against terrorism," Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said after touring the Middle East to explain Turkey's position.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, said the PKK would make a cease-fire announcement Monday, but rebels later said they already had announced a unilateral cease-fire in June.

"We're stating clearly that if the Turkish state stops its attacks, then increased tensions will be replaced with a combat-free environment," a rebel statement said.

Turkey has rejected truces declared by the PKK, demanding that the rebels surrender or be killed. The rebels have pressed ahead with attacks on the grounds they are defending themselves against the army.

In Washington, the State Department said the United States had opened a diplomatic campaign to persuade Turkey not to invade northern Iraq. "In our view, there are better ways to deal with this issue," spokesman Sean McCormack said.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he told Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice by telephone Sunday night that Turkey expected "speedy steps from the U.S." in quelling the PKK. He said Rice asked "for a few days."

McCormack did not dispute the account of the conversation but declined to comment on what Rice meant by asking for "a few days."

Erdogan did not specify what he meant by "speedy steps," but he has often urged the United States and Iraq to crack down on the PKK. Turkish leaders say it is the responsibility of those countries to do whatever is necessary to destroy guerrilla bases in northern Iraq.

Steven Cook, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, noted previous Turkish incursions into northern Iraq had not destroyed the PKK, which has waged an insurgency in Kurdish-dominated southeastern Turkey that has killed some 30,000 people since 1984.

"The PKK is trying to draw the Turks into Iraq to keep them bogged down there," Cook said, saying the rebels hoped prolonged military action in Iraq would destabilize Turkey.

Egypt and Jordan cautioned Turkey on Monday against launching an offensive into Iraq, a reflection of Arab countries' fears of widening the Iraq conflict.

Arab nations traditionally oppose any foreign incursion into a fellow Arab state, and they fear a Turkish attack could fuel separatist sentiment among Iraqi Kurds and increase the danger of Iraq's breakup. But they also have ties with predominantly Muslim Turkey and oppose Kurdish separatist movements.

"I hope that both sides, Turkey and Iraq, will sit together to find a solution to the Kurdish problem," Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said. In Jordan, government spokesman Nasser Judeh said: "We're concerned about Iraq's security, unity and integrity."

___

141.       teaschip
3870 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 04:59 am

Sorry for the long post, I need Roswitha to show me how to post the link. I'm not too computer savvy.

142.       Janette1169
92 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 12:57 pm

Quote:

Turkey has no problems with other etnic groups (citizens) in Turkey, least of all the Kurds. No average Turk is dumb enough to wish condemn any Kurds to miserable lives.(you must realize most of the Kurds are moslems, and there has been extensive intermarriage for years betwwen Kurds and Turks: almost any Turk has a Kurdish relative by marriage or vica versa. How can a Turk normally discriminate Kurds, if he has two Kurdish duughter-in-laws and a dozen half breed grandsons? ..or vica versa. Ok there may be some old laws that has to be changed or improved, but even the hottest Kurdish fanatic can not deny that state is genuinly working towards more democracy, human rights, better distribution of wealth etc...not only for Kurds but for all citizens

I won't comment on this subject because i find it a very complicated matter to understand fully.

However the term ' HALF BREED' as quoted above does concern me.
Here in the UK some may see that as a racist or derogatory remark aimed at mixed race people, so if turks dont discriminate againts the kurdish people , why was the term half breed used.

Its not a nice way to describe a person, nor is it fair to address them as that because of their bloodline.

Sorry for this little outburst but we all bleed the same colour, no matter what our heritage is.

Janette

143.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 02:49 pm

Janette,
That is exactly what I mean, when I say people should not be talking out of their depths. Or if they have to talk, they should be using a more modest tone

The concept of race or color discrimination is an element of Western culture and was not even heard of in Turkey, until we were flooded by American movies. Such discrimination as Westerners displayed against native Americans, colored people of Africa, Indians etc..is clearly and strictly banned in Islam and even looked down upon among Turks.

Halfbreed in Turkish is "melez" and carries no insult. In fact the general belief is that melez are physically stronger and esthetically better looking.

Anatolia, our homeland, is not an isolated island like UK. Scores of civilisations have flourished here, remnants of all are still clearly identifiable; you can count more than 20 ethnic groups with equal number of languages (never mind dialect differences within the same language) and just as many different religious beliefs. While you can meet blonde people with green eyes here, it is just as easy to see high cheek bones and slanted eyes of Middle Assia in certain areas..

The word "melez" can not be derogatory in such an environment. How many people, do you think, can rationally claim to be a pure blooded Turk or a Kurd or an Armenian etc. here...

What ever happened to Hittites, Ionians, Frigs, Sumerians, Greeks, Arabs, Persians etc.. who lived on this land? Do you think they were deported to planet Venus upon arrival of Turks?

The word Turk may imply a certain ethnical origin, But it also means people (citizen) of Republic of Turkia. The founder of this republic defined Turkish Nationalism, for those living within the boundaries of this country, by saying HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO FEELS TURKISH (Notice he did not say HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO IS ETHNICALLY TURKISH).

As opposed to separatist racist nationalism like once followed by Germans or what is supported by PKK today.... Turkish nationalism is a unifying umbrella trying to unite people of different origins into a single solid national identity.

144.       Delidolu
344 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 02:59 pm

Quote:


Halfbreed in Turkish is "melez" and carries no insult. In fact the general belief is that melez are physically stronger and esthetically better looking.


The word "melez" can not be derogatory in such an environment. How many people, do you think, can rationally claim to be a pure blooded Turk or a Kurd or an Armenian etc. here...

What ever happened to Hittites, Ionians, Frigs, Sumerians, Greeks, Arabs, Persians etc.. who lived on this land? Do you think they were deported to planet Venus upon arrival of Turks?

The word Turk may imply a certain ethnical origin, But it also means people (citizen) of Republic of Turkia. The founder of this republic defined Turkish Nationalism, for those living within the boundaries of this country, by saying HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO FEELS TURKISH (Notice he did not say HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO IS TURKISH.



woohooo,I am "melez" too I am half Korean half Anatolian =) I totally agree that there aren't any pure breeds of Turks or greek or ...whatever...AND I totally disagree with the breed thing,coz u know,we're not DOGS or HORSES!!!!!!!So I think it is an honour to have mixed origins...It's more interesting,healthier(DNA renews itself)and a proof that love is above "breeds" and borders and POLITICS.

145.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 03:10 pm

Quoting AlphaF:

That is exactly what I mean, when I say people should not be talking out of their depths. Or if they have to talk, they should be using a more modest tone



I have never read such pompous, arrogant words in my life. In addition, the condescending tone of your reply Dilara was not missed by ME, even though, luckily, she seemed to not notice.

Quoting AlphaF:

The concept of race or color discrimination is an element of Western culture and was not even heard of in Turkey, until we were flooded by American movies. Such discrimination as Westerners displayed against native Americans, colored people of Africa, Indians etc..is clearly and strictly banned in Islam and even looked down upon among Turks.



Really? Western culture invented racism? Thats bizarre - as far as I was aware, it has been around for thousands of years and was certainly around in ancient Egypt and the Roman Empire. If racism is banned by Islam, how do you explain the racism that clearly exists to all Kurdish people in Turkey. We only have to read your original post on this subject and your generalising of the intelligence and mentality of Kurds to see the proof of the pudding!

Quoting AlphaF:

The word Turk may imply a certain ethnical origin, But it also means people (citizen) of Republic of Turkia. The founder of this republic defined Turkish Nationalism, for those living within the boundaries of this country, by saying HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO FEELS TURKISH (Notice he did not say HAPPY IS THE ONE WHO IS ETHNICALLY TURKISH).



I don't think it is us "westerners" you should be explaining this to, but your own countryman. I think many Turkish Nationalists have perhaps forgotten the original intention of Ataturks words.

146.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 03:11 pm

Be careful Dilara,
You are beginning to think like me..)))))))))))))

147.       Janette1169
92 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 03:29 pm

Here the term Half breed is an insult, thats why i found it so shocking to see it used.

Sorry didnt mean to open up another heated debate here.

Janette

148.       libralady
5152 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 03:41 pm

BBC News this morning Looks like things are moving along, hopefully in the right direction.

149.       elham
579 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 04:01 pm

Quoting libralady:

BBC News this morning Looks like things are moving along, hopefully in the right direction.


diplomatic means to solve the crisis is good solution taken by Turkey , if no,maybe people will topple the government if pushing Army in the war losers
we hope good luck to turkey to pass this crisis

150.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 23 Oct 2007 Tue 04:05 pm

Glad to be able to say I am proud to be a Brit. Well done Gordon Brown

(Turkish news on Gordon Brown's meeting with Erdoğan,at no 10 Downing Street, followed by joint press conference where Brown condemned the PKK. Brown said, "We will stand side by side on terror. We will continue to strengthen our relationship with Turkey. We condemn the PKK, and will work together regarding the PKK.")

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