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The lack of powerful liberal Muslim voices
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| 110. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:34 am |
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Quoting CANLI: But cat,you are not Muslims there,and you dont apply İslam rules too
And STİLL cheating rate between men is very much high...so what is the reason for that ?!
Maybe there are many examples also,of course men not all same,but what percentage ?! |
Yes, Islam is not applied there and what you see is actually that nobody argues that men "need 4 wives" - because it sounds ridiculous to them. So you see the power of socialization and culture. If the culture makes it acceptable, people do it. If the culture makes it unacceptable, people don't do it.
Most of the world.. like 99% is patriarchial. That is - men hold the power, women are the lower class, who is subordinate to men. We don't really have any examples of countries that are not patriarchal, but what we have is some societies going through a transformation from more patriarchal to less patriarchal and what we observe, is that whem the dominant class - men - is held responsible and accountable for their behavior, they stop doing what is wrong. For example, in the US men in the 60s used to expect their wives to cook and clean for them, but after the feminist revolution, this attitude largely has changed and men cook and clean for themselves now and they NOW find it to be completely normal.
Unopposed power will lead to oppression. When men hold the power, they will oppress women. If women stand up and speak up and fight against it, men back off.
50 years ago, it was unthinkable for a man to be a feminist and stand up for women's rights. These days there are many men who criticize patriarchy and speak up for justice. They will tell you that there's no such thing that men can't control their sexual feelings or that men can't live up to basic human values.
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| 111. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:56 am |
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''what you see is actually that nobody argues that men "need 4 wives" - because it sounds ridiculous to them.''
Because they can have more than 4,so of course its ridiculous !
Well cat,from what i see arround us in the world,not just the İslamic world,but yours of course tells me differently
İf men in İslam can have up to 4 wives with certain conditions,but they dont follow those conditions and try to have it,and non Muslim men doing same under different name
Made me wonder about their reasons !
Polygamy not much in my country,but its spreading wide in Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia
So is it because the low stiuations of women there,and richness of the men ?!
But why is it relevant ?
But also,what about West?
Most women are educated,with open mind,so... why ?
İ actually dont know.
Here,i found this,seems Polygamy is not an İslamic thing only
Jewish Polygamy
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| 112. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 03:54 am |
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Quoting CANLI: Because they can have more than 4,so of course its ridiculous ! |
you mean they can have more then 4 women at the same time? (I assume you don't mean wives.. ) If there's a guy who's playing games with four different women... that's a completely different thing than when a society approves that a man has four wives.. don't you think?
Quoting CANLI: Well cat,from what i see arround us in the world,not just the İslamic world,but yours of course tells me differently |
what do you see around the world, I don't know what you mean here..
Quoting CANLI: İf men in İslam can have up to 4 wives with certain conditions,but they dont follow those conditions and try to have it,and non Muslim men doing same under different name
Made me wonder about their reasons ! |
I again, don't understand what you mean here. How are non-muslim men trying to have four wives?
Quoting CANLI: Polygamy not much in my country,but its spreading wide in Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia
So is it because the low stiuations of women there,and richness of the men ?! |
yes, that's what I think - very low situation of women, overwhelming patriarchy and a culture that sanctions such behavior instead of punishing it.
Quoting CANLI: But why is it relevant ?
But also,what about West?
Most women are educated,with open mind,so... why ?
İ actually dont know. |
what specifically are you referring to about the west? as I said, there's also patriarchy in the west. it's actually a much more insidious patriarchal system. what happens in the west is that men hold 90% of the power in the society, they control and dominate everything that's significant and influencial, they propagate a mentality that puts women in a role of a sex object that's only as valuable as it is useful for the man's pleasure and then they say: "but you, as an individual are free to do whatever you want", "you are free to reject this system, but of course you know the consequences", "I'm not responsible for your lower position, because you can choose not to be part of this system".
yeah, basically there's patriarchy in the west. men control and dominate everything. the difference is that a woman, if she's strong and thoughtful enough, CAN leave teh system, she won't be at the mercy of her husband if she chooses to leave him or to not have him.
Quoting CANLI: Here,i found this,seems Polygamy is not an İslamic thing only
Jewish Polygamy |
yes, polygamy is not only an islamic thing, but today it's mainly practiced in islam. all the other developed, civilized nations abandoned this idea as barbaric.
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| 113. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 01:30 am |
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To make long post short,
İ was refering to what you said,compairing East and west,and men behaviour.
To me,at the bottem of it,men having more than 1 woman
İn İslam,even there are limitation,and conditions to have more than 1 wife,but they are skipping them to have more 1 woman..'not all men of course'
And in West,they are doing same also,but outside marriage,they dont marry more than 1 but they have afairs,so the result is same,they are having more than 1 woman ''again not all men''
So,my question wasnt actually directing to you personally,it was wondering about the behaviour
Why cant they just be with 1 woman ?!
İf they dont love her,dont want her,leave her...but dont fool her with others!
Loving her,then why looking at others ?!
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| 114. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 12:51 pm |
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So, Canli, what you're trying to say is that in all guys - be it Muslims or non-Muslims, want more than one woman but Muslims have some laws and responsibilities to obey doing so, while non-Muslims are free to do whatever they want without having to obey any rules? That is, if a Muslim guy wants to have sex with more than one woman, he has to marry her and provide for her. If a non-Muslim guy wants to have sex with more than one woman, he has no responsibilities towards her?
I'm sorry if I missed you point but that's how I understand your post. If it is what you meant, then I cannot refrain from commenting on it.
This way of thinking only shows that you are used to perceiving women as not being able to make choices. I have no idea what it is like in Islam, but from what I read or hear, a woman has little choice if her husband wants to marry again. True, you may reply that non-Muslim women have little choice when their husbands want to cheat on them. However, can a Muslim woman divorce her husband if he remarries? Non-Muslim women can do it - infidelity is enough to get a divorce.
Looking at things the other way - women who decide to sleep with a man do not always (I believe I should say rarely) want to marry him. You may not like or approve of such conduct, but it is a fact - women do have their needs too and they are free to provide for them. Islam seems to be more in favour of men than omen in this respect. Men can have the need to have more than one woman but women cannot have more than one men. Of course, I do understand that it is preferred not to have more than one. But preferred and applied are two different things.
It is a fact that women in non-Muslim countries have more personal freedom. They don't need anybody's consent to live the life they want. Non-educated women are able to find a job and they don't need to be their brother's burden or a live-in prostitute for their husbands. I can't agree that women have to become prostitutes to provide for themselves. Do you actually know that some women do it because they want it not because they have to? Developed countries have vacancies for unskilled labourers - production lines, housekeeping etc. So saying that the street is their last resort is a bit of an exaggeration.
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| 115. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:14 pm |
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Actually,that wasnt exactly what i meant,
First to be fair, let's not say all guys,let's eliminate this with the percentage of men who already doing so,
The Muslim men who are married to more than to 1 woman,and the men who are having double affairs.
İm saying,when it is in İslam marrying another women should be for some reasons and with some conditions,but most men who are marrying a second wife dont even have those excuses,and just using it to marry another woman !
An in the other hand,non muslims doing the same thing but not by marriage 'because its not allowed' but by having another afair,so the result in the end he is having another woman in his life also.
İ wasnt refering to whom is carrying responsibility and wether he is carrying it r not.
Second,you got it wrong,women in İslam have the choice whether to accept her husband marrying another woman or not.
İt wont stop him also of course,but one of the conditions in the second marrige that he must inform his first wife about it BEFORE remarrying,and its her choice,if she accept that he will marry again and she be still his wife,or to have the divorce,and leave him.
So actually,YES she can divorce him if he remarry,its her right to do it by İslam rules.
And normally,women dont have more than 1 relation,i am aware of course that women do cheat too,so that means they do have more than 1 man ,but still its very minor percentage of women who do so
So wehther she is married or in a relationship ,she mostly be faithful to one man.
İts happening with Muslim women,and non Muslim women also
And i didnt say ALL non educated women would live prostitute life,that was the extream of course,or an exaggeration ,still some also did,but surelly you also cant deny life wont be easy for none educated women,even if they work,their income wont provide an easy life for them
But of course knowing that she will always have the financial support,wehther she is working or not,wether she used it or not,would make it lots easier so,as you say she wouldnt have to live under mercy for a husband she is not comfortable with.
İ agree that women in West ''not non Muslims women,because our Christians women in the East are same as Muslims..its Traditions matter also'' have freedom than women in East.
But,as for Muslim women,if they 'Men and women' follow the rules of İslam,women would be free too.
So,she would be free to marry who she wants,and divorce him if she wants ' and society wont be looking bad at her,because its her right by İslam'
And remarry again if she wants.
Women can satisfy their needs also in the concept of marriage.
İts not just İslamic thing,but having affairs out of marriage is a sin in all religions,so we dont see it as freedom.
So i actually cant say that its women right to become prostitutes,it would be like saying its the thief right to be a theif !
But actually,who is not free is the Christian women,you see,in Christianity,its not allowed to get divorce,and who get it is rejected from church ''in my country its this way,we are Orthodocs here'' and if she got the divorce in civilian courts ''asking to be divorced accourding to Muslims rules'' she wont be able to remarry again in church
So,...she is hocked !
Anyway,Muslims or non Muslims,women still have way to gain their rights!
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| 116. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:30 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
Second,you got it wrong,women in İslam have the choice whether to accept her husband marrying another woman or not.
İt wont stop him also of course,but one of the conditions in the second marrige that he must inform his first wife about it BEFORE remarrying,and its her choice,if she accept that he will marry again and she be still his wife,or to have the divorce,and leave him.
So actually,YES she can divorce him if he remarry,its her right to do it by İslam rules.
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CANLI
You are simply trying to soften the image of some clear set of rules here.
Can you tell me where it is written that women can divorce the husband for husband having a second wife?
Say that your husband informed you and you rejected..can you divorce him for using his 'right' which is clearly stated as a right FOR MEN in Qu'ran?
and also can you explain this clearly from equality of women and men point of view?
Why dont you accept it as saying that women dont have equal rights comparing to men according to Qu'ran?
Most scholars will accept that..
You are trying to defend indefensible here..
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| 117. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:39 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: CANLI
You are simply trying to soften the image of some clear set of rules here.
Can you tell me where it is written that women can divorce the husband for husband having a second wife?
Why dont you accept it as saying that women dont have equal rights comparing to men according to Qu'ran?
Most scholars will accept that..
You are trying to defend indefensible here..
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+(100 )!
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| 118. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:43 pm |
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That was a fantastic post Canli. Thank you for it. I wasn't aware that Muslim women can decide whether to allow their husbands to remarry or not. That was very informative.
Quoting CANLI:
And i didnt say ALL non educated women would live prostitute life,that was the extream of course,or an exaggeration ,still some also did,but surelly you also cant deny life wont be easy for none educated women,even if they work,their income wont provide an easy life for them
But of course knowing that she will always have the financial support,wehther she is working or not,wether she used it or not,would make it lots easier so,as you say she wouldnt have to live under mercy for a husband she is not comfortable with. |
It's hard to argue that non-educated people have easier life than the educated ones. It goes for both men and women although...in my country teachers make from $430 to $800 a month, depending on the years of teaching while uneducated people in production lines make about $500 a month  Call that need to study  But, speaking about education, I was surprised to learn from my Norwegian friend that Norway was actually afraid of losing its intellectual level as less and less people decided to study because of high standard of living regardless of the job you do. That's something I'd never expect.
Quote: İ agree that women in West ''not non Muslims women,because our Christians women in the East are same as Muslims..its Traditions matter also'' have freedom than women in East.
But,as for Muslim women,if they 'Men and women' follow the rules of İslam,women would be free too.
So,she would be free to marry who she wants,and divorce him if she wants ' and society wont be looking bad at her,because its her right by İslam'
And remarry again if she wants.
Women can satisfy their needs also in the concept of marriage. |
These words are really important and I think they represent what most women here were trying to say (both Muslim and non-Muslim) with not a great success mostly. When we criticise Islam, we don't discuss the core of it - I'd never dare to do it not having enough knowledge - we are criticising the social impact of Islam. How it is applied, not what it bases on. If somebody misinterpreted us (or me if others don't think this way) then I apologise - Canli's post above was exactly my point in all the previous threads.
Quote: İts not just İslamic thing,but having affairs out of marriage is a sin in all religions,so we dont see it as freedom.
So i actually cant say that its women right to become prostitutes,it would be like saying its the thief right to be a theif ! |
You're right, it is a sin in all religions and I do understand your idea about prostitution derives from your religious beliefs. I do not agree with it but I respect your point of view.
Quote: But actually,who is not free is the Christian women,you see,in Christianity,its not allowed to get divorce,and who get it is rejected from church ''in my country its this way,we are Orthodocs here'' and if she got the divorce in civilian courts ''asking to be divorced accourding to Muslims rules'' she wont be able to remarry again in church |
Oh, Christian rules are terrible, I agree absolutely. Still, you can get a legal divorce without the religious one.
It is sad, however, that many women in the past thought their bad marriages to be 'a burden put by God on their shoulders to test their faith.' Perhaps there are women who still think like that, but I don't know them.
(What about Islam, sorry, it just got to my head - if you want a divorce, do you have the religious one and it has a legal value or do you go to a court and it has a religious value?)
Quote: Anyway,Muslims or non Muslims,women still have way to gain their rights! |
Well said Canli 
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| 119. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:01 pm |
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Quote:
CANLI
You are simply trying to soften the image of some clear set of rules here.
Can you tell me where it is written that women can divorce the husband for husband having a second wife?
Say that your husband informed you and you rejected..can you divorce him for using his 'right' which is clearly stated as a right FOR MEN in Qu'ran?
and also can you explain this clearly from equality of women and men point of view?
Why dont you accept it as saying that women dont have equal rights comparing to men according to Qu'ran?
Most scholars will accept that..
You are trying to defend indefensible here..
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Where it written....i will have to look it up,ask someone who knows,because im not İmam you know
Of course i can have divorce if he marry another women..
İts his right to marry another woman dear,but NOT his right to keep me !
This is MY choice,if i accept it or not!
So,YES,by the book,i can have the divorce.
You want me to accept what i dont feel it,or what i dont live it ?!
For me...if the husband want to marry another woman,then that means he doesnt want his wife,So...why the heck would she want him ?!
So,to me''personally'' talking about having another wife,is not an option, İslam gave me that right and doesnt force me to such marriage so why would i feel not equal ?!
İts same as Non Muslim woman find out about her cheated husband
And ''personally''again i agree with İslam heritage system,for all the reason i've dictated above.
Women dont have any financial responsibilities towards anyone at ALL .
So,if ''these days'' a women accept to be supported by her brother after her father died ,and she is a working woman,her salary goes only to her...no accomodation,no feeding,NOTHİNG...all are provided.
And if she is married,she will have her part of the heritage,her sallary,ALL of it,and STİLL has NO financial responsibilities,her husband will,and MUST provide all.
So...actually,to me,heritage rules also dont provoke that equality
Maybe men should complain
Look handsom,those are women's rights in İslam,women should know them,and use them
İ admit many women dont do this
Many women dont get divorce when husband remarry ''see Gulf countries''
many women help financially in the house expenses,even sometimes their husbands took over their wives salaries
But that is NOT in İslam...
İslam gave us the rights,if we let go of some of them,then its not İslam mistak.
İts ours,and our societies mistake also.
But NO handsom,i dont feel i dont have equal rights with men.
İm not İmam,but i bought a book,i have read about women's rights in İslam,and women's duties,and about men's right in İslam,and men's duties.
So,as long as İslam giving me those rights,i wont let anyone of them,and i will grab what im not given...because its MY RİGHTS
ALLAH giving them to me,so i wont wait for any man to allow or deny !
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| 120. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:18 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer:
(What about Islam, sorry, it just got to my head - if you want a divorce, do you have the religious one and it has a legal value or do you go to a court and it has a religious value?)
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You know divorce is trouble,its almots same as you have it there some how.
You can get a nice friendly divorce where 2 people make all the finiancial arrangemets,and then they have it civilian with a religious value
You can have the divorce in civilian office
But,if it gets messy,then its in courts but also at the end with religious value.
You cant have religious one alone,how,what do you mean ?!mmmmmm...
İ guess there is something you are messing here
Religious one not seperated than civilian one,you see in the past,people's number was little,they can have religious one only
But now,it cant ...we must have both...actually we just have one,and it have the religious value as well
Both in marriage and divorce.
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