Quoting Rocco Siffredi:

why don't you wear veil on your head, catwoman? you are very curious with these kinda topics. just try yourself, and share your experiences.

Quoting catwoman:

I am posting this not to create an argument,

Quoting bydand:

Quoting bydand:

Quoting uYkuSuz:

Quoting bydand: Quoting catwoman: I am posting this not to create an argument, Must say I find this funny.

Quoting peacetrain:

Thanks for that Alameda.

The wearing of Niqab and chador does seem to be on the rise here in the UK. The women that I know personally, wear these of their own accord. They are intelligent, well educated women who have made their own decision.

Quoting peacetrain:

I'm recounting personal, direct experience and I'm not trying to say that there isn't another side to it.

Quoting teaschip:

I guess I don´t understand why a women would wear it as personal choice. Could someone explain this to me, it´s not fashionable and doesn´t look comfortable, so why else would they wear it? Please don´t say out of respect for their husband, again this would conclude control and limited freedom.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

God never told you to wear a veil...

My mom never wears a veil

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

This is beacuse of your imams regulations... Not because of god told

My uncle is an Imam and highly educated one... wrote books etc... goes to conferences... but his wife doesnt wear a veil... also he is totally against to that...

if you want to wear it... wear...

Quoting teaschip:

I guess I don´t understand why a women would wear it as personal choice. Could someone explain this to me, it´s not fashionable and doesn´t look comfortable, so why else would they wear it? Please don´t say out of respect for their husband, again this would conclude control and limited freedom.

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Daydreamer:

What about women who wear burkas etc?

Quoting Daydreamer:

Ok, so hijab is a test - no problems here - it´s your religion and you follow whatever you consider right. What about women who wear burkas etc?

Quoting zizoo:

Here is the verse that states that all Muslim women should wear the "hijab":

that they should draw their veils over their bosoms

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting zizoo:

Quoting silversong:

I dont usually get involved in this kind of discussion, because I think women should wear what they wish if it is their free choice
but I am trying hard to understand another point of view
I dont understand why it is women who have to cover their beauty and modesty
is this to prevent indecent thoughts and actions by men
why is this the women responsibility, are men incapable of taking resposibility for their own actions in the eyes of Islam
Would it not be better to advise men to treat women with dignity and respect rather than put the burden of some mens thoughts buy asking women to cover their beauty

Just another point of view

Or maybe women will always carry the burden of men

Quoting zizoo:

Quoting silversong:

Or maybe women will always carry the burden of men

Quoting Elisabeth:

Sorry, still confused....because I don´t consider my face or hair an ornament but yet some muslim women wear burkas. I just find it strange. On the other hand, if this is how a woman chooses to dress, I believe it is her right. However, I have spent some time in some muslim countries and I was not given the choice. I was told I must wear a burka or the religious police could arrest me. So, my "choice" was...wear it and everything will be fine OR don´t wear it and be arrested. Somehow, I don´t see this as freedom of choice. I don´t mean to be disrespectful, but you have to admit that the inability for muslims to even decide between no veil/veil/burka makes you all look a little...indecisive to say the least.

Quoting CANLI:

Now you are talking about 2 different things
İn İslam it is as zizo said,only hijab is an order from ALLAH
Where you cover your hair,your arms and body,face and hands,foot not covered
The other thing is in some countries,its political thing,its their system,and they dont have the right to force it.
Even in İslam,it says no where that it is forced upon women by anyone´s power ´governmet,parents,husbands,nor even imam´
So they dont have the right to do that by no mean
So actually they SHOULD have the ability to decide what they want
And they have only ALLAH to judge them

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

This is all very nice in a perfect world - but this is not a perfect world and women ARE forced. Also... hijab is "order from Allah"???? I never found anywhere in the Quran where this is stated.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting silversong:

I dont know you, and I can´t pretend to understand your beliefs

But I want to ask you about freedom of choice

Say you are married and have a daughter, you and/or your husband decided that it is right when your daughter reaches a certain age she should cover her modesty in accordance with the teachings of Islam
she rejects this
do you respect her freedom of choice, and would her decision affect your impression of her and ultimatiely your love for her

Quoting Elisabeth:

As always Canli, you are very patient to explain your views and your religion. It is, indeed not a perfect world and believe it or not, there is no perfect belief system. They are all flawed by the thoughts and deeds of humans. Perhaps that is why so many people do not want to belong to organized religions or just simply don´t believe in God...I admire your faith.

Quoting silversong:

I dont usually get involved in this kind of discussion, because I think women should wear what they wish if it is their free choice

but I am trying hard to understand another point of view

I dont understand why it is women who have to cover their beauty and modesty

is this to prevent indecent thoughts and actions by men

why is this the women responsibility, are men incapable of taking resposibility for their own actions in the eyes of Islam

Would it not be better to advise men to treat women with dignity and respect rather than put the burden of some mens thoughts buy asking women to cover their beauty



Just another point of view



Or maybe women will always carry the burden of men

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting silversong:

I´m sure we will debate some more

Quoting CANLI:

Thank you,you also has put your inquiry in a way that made me gladly answer it
Thank you

Quoting Avalon:

I am just wondering how many choices we made freely.
we haven´t choosen our names,religion in 99%of cases,our families,believes that were imposed on us in the process of social domestication.How many?

Quoting Avalon:

I am just wondering how many choices we made freely.
we haven´t choosen our names,religion in 99%of cases,our families,believes that were imposed on us in the process of social domestication.How many?[

Quoting Avalon:

I am just wondering how many choices we made freely.
we haven´t choosen our names,religion in 99%of cases,our families,believes that were imposed on us in the process of social domestication.How many?

Quoting zizoo:

Here is the verse that states that all Muslim women should wear the "hijab":

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband´s fathers, their sons, their husbands´ sons, their brothers or their brothers´ sons, or their sisters´ sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. [Sura: 24, Verse: 31]

Quoting thehandsom:

look at this..how come nobody is looking at this from a different angle?
-how come you do NOT think that ´why on earth this thing is saying that only women should cover but NOT men´? any sensible answer to that apart from ´ah women are weak´ or ´it is god´s order so that it can not be questioned´?

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting silversong:

Sorry I´m not picking on you its just your are willing to discuss this subject with me and for that I thank you

I understand that your are free to make this choice and you do so in the name of Allah
I have no religious beliefs so this concept is totally alien to me, as are most religious practices from all faiths
but my main problem with this idea, and I mentioned it in a previous post, is why have women been instructed to cover their modesty while men have no such burden put upon them, where is the equality
I guess if I were to subscribe to any religion it would nerd to be one where men and women were treated equally
thanks again for your time and patience
as I said before, just another point of view on the subject

Quoting silversong:

Would it not be better to advise men to treat women with dignity and respect rather than put the burden of some mens thoughts buy asking women to cover their beauty

Quoting silversong:

are men incapable of taking resposibility for their own actions in the eyes of Islam

Quoting CANLI:

My dear friend,men are incapable of taking resposibility for their own actions in the eyes of EVERYONE

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting silversong:

Thank you I got your pm
and as soon as I get my email to work I will send you a pm and give you my thoughts
that´s if you dont get to your ignore button first

Quoting silversong:

ohh and it will modify my other post before I get in trouble

Quoting silversong:

did I tell you I like to get the last word

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Actually catwoman, men have two heads One they have some control over, the other they have very minimal control over.

Quoting alameda:

Actually what I find most annoying about the whole veil thing is that people make such an issue about it. What is the big deal. Why speculate on it?

The Western missionaries went to the Pacific Islands and covered all the natives up in neck to ankle MuuMus. Now the same Westerners (metaphorically speaking) want to remove the veil from Eastern women.

Argh....get over it and let people be.

Quoting MrX67:

we can understand you totally that you defending woman rights and you against to all sort pressures to women dear cat,but pls try to look at this topic as a woman right to,even a few women using it with their free will???

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting MrX67:

Quoting CANLI: Quoting MrX67: we can understand you totally that you defending woman rights and you against to all sort pressures to women dear cat,but pls try to look at this topic as a woman right to,even a few women using it with their free will??? +1 From what i live,they actually not few MrX

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting MrX67: Quoting CANLI: Quoting MrX67: we can understand you totally that you defending woman rights and you against to all sort pressures to women dear cat,but pls try to look at this topic as a woman right to,even a few women using it with their free will??? +1 From what i live,they actually not few MrX i know well not few canlı,but my meaning was thats an important right for the last woman on earth even,if we really believe necessity of freedoms or rights

Quoting MrX67:

but pls try to look at this topic as a woman right to,even a few women using it with their free will???

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Hahaha MrX, you and Canli are YET AGAIN coming up with the same old tired crappy reasons why women should cover themselves for the benefit of men, but when Cat or give our opinions you again describe us as radical feminists or we are accused of repeating the same things again and again.

Why is your opinion more important?

Quoting CANLI:

So stating the reason AGAİN is worthless !

And maybe my opinion is more important because im actually one of those women you are talking about ?!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Lemmings jump off cliff edges with free will - does that make it a good idea?

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

People cut their bodies with knives using "free will" - is it right also?

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting CANLI:

And even if not,it will be the way WE are ordered in OUR own religion
İts not that we asked anyone else to do same as we do

And,frankly too,you can keep on objecting

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

But this is simply not true!

Ask Meltem if she is a real muslim because she does not cover herself?

Quoting CANLI:

İ dont get it !

Hmmmmm,then if we lie we wont be Muslims ?
İf you ´appearntly not you personally´ lie you wont be Christian ?!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Ask Meltem if she is a real muslim because she does not cover herself?

Quoting ciko:

Offffffffffffffffffffff do you never get tired of arguing about the same over and over?!!!

headscarf is not an order in islam! it was what arab women used to wear when quran sent to human.it was fashionable!!! if quran was sent to england , the same verse would be as " tell women to cover their bosoms with their dresses" or somethng like that. you shoud not ignore circumstances of 6 th century when you make such certain comments!

Quoting ciko:

Offffffffffffffffffffff do you never get tired of arguing about the same over and over?!!!

Quoting ciko:

it was what arab women used to wear when quran sent to human.it was fashionable!!!

Quoting MrX67:

we can understand you totally that you defending woman rights and you against to all sort pressures to women dear cat,but pls try to look at this topic as a woman right to,even a few women using it with their free will???

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

One nice example of how this function is controlled are the Catholic Priests who were caught in sex scandals...hmmm

Quoting CANLI:

Even if its as you said something for Arab women,can you tell me why Turkish women are wearing it ?
Why Muslim women in Malisya,in İndonisia is wearing it ?
Why some Western women who convert to İslam wear it ?!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting alameda:

That was fast canim....however this issue was not about religion, but biological functions.

Quoting ciko:

Quoting alameda:

catwoman, weather you like it or not, we ALL have primitive animal reflexes that are beyond our control. I thought you studied this? My observation in no way implies men are "less then human" in anyway, It does recognize what human is. It does include basic animal responses....

" Erection and ejaculation are physiological responses that may result from mere physical contact or even extreme stress."

Male Rape

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting CANLI:

mmmm, İ see you are having a good time here AEnigma
Alameda talking about something and im talking about something.
Dont mix things up
That priest isnt in The Book

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

But sexually abusive priests have nothing to do with the reasons women give for wearing the veil.

Quoting Elisabeth:

Are you sure about this? Perhaps you have stumbled on to something!!

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Also, when the defense of the veil is as crude as "men are incapable of not raping a woman when they see a piece of her hair", then obviously, to a rational person, it is an urgent issue of debate. And of course, there are some Muslim women who would disagree with you about ´why the fuss´, because they experience directly the repercussions of "the issue of the veil", some of which may be even death. I find it to be quite outraging that you gloss over these issues, when you know that human rights violations are behind them. If the Islamic world will "let people be", then there will be no need for an urgent debate.

Quoting catwoman:

Secondly, I am tired of this irresponsible argument "Christians did this, so stop pointing out the violations committed by Muslims". This is again, a childish and ridiculous argument. Please, don´t say this again, I believe we can move on in this conversation to the next level.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Do they? You are the expert on this? Based on what? your long and extensive experience in Islamic countries? I must admit, I find your constant use of the term "gender apartheid" amusing

Quoting alameda:

First of all: I NEVER said such a thing. I would appreciate it if you would not rewrite my words. Dare I say, you seem to be getting somewhat hysterical my dear as the issues you brought up are not ones that I mentioned, or even came near. I did say I would not like to be forced to wear a veil.....so what is your issue with me on this? The fact of the matter is, if you like it or not, some women wear coverings because they WANT to.

Quoting alameda:

Historic facts stand. In the long picture of human existance, what happened last century is not even a blink of an eye.

Second: Are you telling me what to write? Free speech? You may be tired of it, but I´m just as tired of your arguments, however I´m not telling you "Please, don´t say this again, I believe we can move on in this conversation to the next level.". As you are the OWNER of this site, are you now dictating what material can be brought into a discussion?

Quoting MrX67:

i think we both saying same things with different ways cat??just with one difference,i´m defend to covering as a woman right,while you looking at this event as a problem of women who under some pressures??And if the target women rights,no worries i´m at the side of that may be more then you,but in good manner rules..

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

It doesn´t matter. If you want to discuss the West or Christianity, we can discuss that in another thread. Western problems are not an excuse for Muslims to do the same or worse. Yet, you keep on using this as if it was an excuse or an explanation.

Quoting catwoman:

Hmmmm.... so are you implying that Islamic countries are promoters of women´s rights? The term gender apartheid is an official term about gender relations in Saudi Arabia.

Quoting catwoman:

The things you said about men imply that men are incapable of normal human behavior, so I´m not putting words in your mouth. And, as I said, women have the right to put on what they want. I do question if the motivation behind it is the right one, but the act itself is their right.

Quoting MrX67:

well i don´t believe good manner about wearing style,covered or decolty and sure thats in a woman´s or man´s brain,never on the clothes.And which one of us can blame any woman to be not good mannered just with her wearing style,isn´t that the one of biggest prejudice?and who can be other one´s moral watchman??i want to replay it again i accpet that as a real woman right,covering or not covering,but away from men´s pressures....And just i want to say we have to be objective about burka and mini skirt by accepting that with our all heart as one of most important woman right..

Quoting silversong:

Myth: Rape is unplanned; the rapist´s natural sexual urges carry him away.

Fact: Men do not have uncontrollable urges. They are not incapable of stopping sexual intercourse once it has begun. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that men have ´stronger´ sexual drives than women. This is an inaccurate belief rooted in society, not a fact. It is not women´s responsibility to control men´s sexuality. This myth is just another convenient excuse.

Myth: Only young, attractive women are at risk of being raped.

Fact: Women, children and men of all ages, classes, racial groups and lifestyles have been raped. No one asks to be humiliated and degraded by an act of extreme violence.

Myth: Rape is a product of an uncontrollable and overwhelming sex drive.

Fact: Men can, and do, control their sexual urges. Rape is an act of violence not a sexual act.


http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/myths.html

Quoting alameda:

Quoting catwoman: