Eight beheaded after wedding dispute in India

Wealthy bride´s kin allegedly killed poverty-stricken groom´s relatives

PATNA, India - Eight members of a man´s poverty-ridden family were shot and beheaded before their bodies were thrown into a river in eastern India after he secretly married a wealthy girl, police said Wednesday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29134554

I don´t know if this is happening more often or if it is just reported more....but honor killings seem to be getting out of hand! 

That´s disgusting I can´t believe such things are still happening.

 Rezzzzzpect, DD, it´s just their culture....

Indian Montagues and Capulets?

What an absurd world this is.

I know you´re being tongue in cheek/sarcastic about it.

But culture is a poor-piss excuse for violating human rights.

Of course it is. But you should hear some of my students sometimes (most are nice but some....). We (people in the Netherlands they mean) have to accept everything because of that culture!

That´s something I´d call dis-culture...

Trudy I imagine it´s hard to stand people using the "culture" excuse for promoting violence, inequality and -isms

It´s not that bad. I say what I think about their ideas - and not always in ´political correct words´... Sometimes a discussion follows and sometimes I just say ´shut up´. (Being in charge can be fun!   )

I wonder if they would be so accepting of your culture if you lived in their country.

Hey Trudy, I don´t know if you´ve read this book, but I think you´d be interested. It´s called "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and it´s about a Muslim-turned-atheist woman from Somalia who immigrated to the Netherlands and actually became a member of the Dutch parliament. It´s a fascinating account of her experiences (albeit criticised as a bit one-sided, but hey, it´s her story). It does touch on the topic of integrating (or not) into a new number culture.

 Haven´t read that one of her, and I must admit I don´t like AHA, I know enough scandals around her to think I can´t trust her.

Share the dirt.  Always interested in a juicy story.

 In short: she changed from socialistic (which here is according to the us very very left wing) to liberal (here very right wing) within 4 years. Her statements changed 180 degrees. So not really trustworthy.

And she got her Dutch passport with a false name and false refugee story. There was even a moment the government was thinking of taking her passport and declaring her non-Dutch again.

 Ms Ali is now a member of the esteemed conservative Enterprise Institute....

Ah yes, I read about it in the book, she did write about it.

I thought maybe you were talking about the scandal with the Submission movie where the director was killed. Although then it wouldn´t be a juicy story, only tragic. I saw it on YouTube by the way, I wasn´t too impressed with the actress. 

I don´t really have an opinion about her as a person, I do admire her though for having the balls to speak out against the evils done in the name of her religion (e.g. she writes about genital mutiliation among other things). You don´t hear much of that from Muslims themselves, it´s usually the outsiders that do it.

 , She only wants status so she can tell any lie for this, actually all her life is based on lie(Hayatý yalan ). Shes very hypocrite, she describes herself atheist, but as far as i remember she is/was working for right-winged Christian thinktank of American government...

 As if a non-religious person can´t work for a religious orientated organisation, how narrow minded. I worked for years for catholic and christian ´with-the-bible´ schools (and these ARE strict) but my non-believing was never a problem, not for me, not for them.

  That has nothing to do with narrow-mindness. Its all about hypocracy and everybody knows that Christian organization of American government uses her in their anti-islamic propogand so that both sides are satisfied. She was also refuted many times about lies in her book, once her brother declared she never experienced war and hardship and he added her forced marriage was lie too, she accepted it herself so she could flee her family...

It´s really her life story so we´ll never know what is true or not. It is possible that her brother is trying to discredit her because of the "shame" she brought to the family by what she did. But we´ll never know for sure, it´s "he said, she said" situation.

I didn´t know she was used by "Christian organization of American government ...in their anti-islamic propogand" and I live in the USA. How I found out about her is by reading books by other people who are critical of ALL religions (Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, etc), basically the book was recommended as a story of someone who breaks away from religion of origin. It would be interesting to find out if the extend of the "anti-Islamic propaganda" you refer to matches what your perception of it is, or whether your perception of it is influenced by anti-west propaganda to convince people that the west is anti-Islam. I don´t know and I´m not trying to start a fight with you here.

And maybe you can ask yourself, why there would be a need for any anti-Islamic propaganda to begin with. The radicals make the religion seem so horrid that no extra effort is required to be scared of it (fear breeds all kinds of negative emotions). And not many moderates are speaking against it. Maybe people need to see the positive aspects of Islam, and I dare say they are not very visible nowadays, all the Muslims get is bad rap, either as a result of the actions of fundamentalists or by misperception of what the "true Islam" is (if it indeed should be peacful, I´m non-religious, to me all religions are absurd).

It seems to me that many Muslims prefer to complain about how people are perceiving them instead of looking into reasons why they are perceived as they are. Sometimes it´s the stupidity/ignorance of people who are prejudiced. Sometimes it´s just fear. And sometimes it´s just the actions of Muslims who hide behind religion to justify terror and human rights abuse. Not many people are speaking about that. AHA did and that´s what I admire her for, regardless whether or not her verision of events agrees with that of her brother.

So how that can be her real life story if well never know the truth as you said? Actually truth is very-well known, just google “Ayaan Hirsi Ali true story”, besides i never stand my opinion only his brother, that was just a small example. Its officially proved that shes liar by Dutch Government. So i reject to trust a liar, thats what a normal human do.

It seems you never listened to her, just read her book.  Her aim is just to attack and provoke not a solution, and she wants people think she is a victim of Islam which is absolutely wrong, this is very clear. She relates every bad thing to Islam and claims that it is in the Quran and tries to show Islamic states and the Quran in the same box which is some members here usually do. She has no Islamic knowledge even she confuses traditions with Islam. She has invited many times to conferences with muslims but she denied. She was confronted by moderate groups, but still she just attacked it. So this lady has a problem. She is a clear muslim hater and Islam hate is her income earning business. She even wasnt raised in an Islamic society, because the greater society in Kenya non-muslim. She just used her to get a free ticket to Europe. She flagrantly lied to her collegues in the parliament about her experiences in Africa and who knows else.

It is clear for me why there is anti-islamic propogand because that satisfies the weapon traders who are imperialists and that supports their middle east-project which they planned after cold-war. So they are using religions both Islam, christianity or any religion, they have been feeding these fanatics as they needed another enemy after cold war period so they have chosen Islam. Actually there are neither radicals nor moderates in Islam, Islam is Islam, that ones are out of Islam in my opinion. I dont like the terms moderate and radical.

Many muslims do not complain, they just voice what has been going on the world. And how do you know that real muslims do not condemn violent acts? If it is so that muslims condemn those, you are not able to see that ones because of your biased media. 

here is the youtube link for her real story:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ayan+Hirsi+True+story&search_type=&aq=f

That´s exactly right, I only read her book and saw the movie she made with the Dutch director who was killed by a Mulism (moderate?) for making it. So I don´t know whether all the arguments you have against her are true or not. I´m basing my post on what I´ve read, and you´re entitled to your own opinion based on what you know. You may be right or you may be wrong, frankly, she´s not somebody I´m going to go to war over with you or anybody else.

Just because you choose to ignore the fact that there are people (which some call radical) that are using Islam to justify violent acts, it doesn´t mean that it´s not an issue. You may call them out of Islam, but that´s not what project themselves as.

How do I know real Muslims do not condemn violent acts? Well, I guess that depends on what you would define as a "real Muslim" to begin with. I would imagine normal, regular people would condemnt violent acts. But if they do, they surely do it quietly, at least quietly enough that the biased media don´t show it (funny though, I watch media from abroad, don´t even watch American tv all that much, but interestingly enough, it´s quiet there too about Muslims protesting violance by other Muslims against both Muslims and "infidels"). Also, there´s been a survey done, and I think it´s in one of Sam Harris´s book about what percentage of people approve suicide bombings "to defend Islam" and the numbers are terrifying. I know surveys are not always accurate, but still, if you even take the margin of error into consideration it´s still awful.

You don´t have to go far to see it too. You complain about the bias of the "western" members. During the massacre in Gaza how many "infidels" expressed their outrage? There´s been multiple threads/posts about it. Where are the threadss with the outrage against violent Muslims expressed by Muslims? All you can say is "It´s not Islam" and how dare you criticize and all west is racist, prejudiced, biased, etc.

Again, I´m not trying to pick a fight with you. It seems that you get real defensive when Islam is discussed. But as you can voice your perception of what´s going on in the world, so can I, and to me, Islam, as a religion, does not have a very friendly face right now. And no, I DON´T think every Muslim is a terrorist killer, if that´s going to be your next argument.

Firstly i stated that i reject to trust a liar and i tried to prove that shes a clear-cut liar. In fact i thought that effort is futile, because its clear as day.  Anyway thats your choice to believe into a liar. By the way i previously talked about that guy who murdered Theo van Gogh here.  You first need to know psychological situation of that guy for sure hes ignorant but i cannot put aside that van Gogh attacked Morrocans in Holland and kept offending them.

Actually you need to know how people living in Islamic societies. These societies are mostly poor, every young brains searching for identity and nobody clearly knows  their own religion, basically they dont read Quran, instead they hire their minds to their religious leaders and sheikhs or cult leaders and those use these young people to gain power and to secure their position. In fact even many of them dont know how to read.  So they can do anything with the order of their leader. Because the only thing they have are those religious leaders.  They pray for them instead of God which is completely shirk. Im the one here who badly criticized so-called leaders and thats why im always against religous states which exploits people’s belief.

In addition these people’s first aim is to look after their family, its their most important duty not like west countries. And in order to realize this they can make anything, so firstly they struggle with their family beforehand struggling with their middle-aged traditions or beforehand educating themselves  thats because i cannot completely condemn them.  People are ignorant, because mostly they have no possibility to educate themselves.  So its easy from here to condemn them.  Real muslim should be against any kind of violence applied to innocents. In Islam killing is strictly forbidden till believers are killed thus its self defence.

Anyway  i think you understand who real muslim is.  Because of this i said they are not muslims and im frustrurated with the hi-jacked name Islam, which is invention of west.  Today all countries see the ones as terrorists who kills innocents.  I criticize the west because its the western imperialists whos sucking their blood and exploit their country and making people hate eachother.  I have to remind you that many muslims protested the acts of Al-Qaida in meetings in various parts of the world.

As for the threads here, there had been many threads condemning the violence of Islamic states. And i also contibuted them and as far as i remember many other members who call themselves muslim criticized too. So its better for you to check the old threads here.  If the intention is constructive, i have no problem with them but when them turns into Islam blackening campaign then of course i have my right to criticize them.

Finally why you continously say that you are not trying to pick a fight with me? Im not boogeyman .  And im not defensive when Islam is discussed and criticized due to respect then for sure i contribute. By the way you havent replied any of my assertions, you just started a new discussion ...

An appropriate reaction when somebody is offending you is to offend them back, discuss the issue with them, or ignore it. It is not to murder that person. 

I can understand the issues related to ignorance and lack of education. However, the terrorist attack on 9/11 was done by educated men who were not poor, and the London attack was done by British citizens, who also were neither poor nor ignorant. All of them had opportunities for a good, comfortable life. So I think the issue is much broader than poverty and ignorance. I do agree that lack of education is a huge problem though - especially when the extent of one´s education is being able to recite portions of the Quran (in the language they don´t even understand).

What do you mean by "In addition these people’s first aim is to look after their family, its their most important duty not like west countries." What do you think we do in the west? Sell our children to the circus? Don´t take care of our families?

"Anyway  i think you understand who real muslim is.  Because of this i said they are not muslims and im frustrurated with the hi-jacked name Islam, which is invention of west.  Today all countries sees the ones as terrorists who kills innocents.  I criticize the west because its the western imperialists whos sucking their blood and exploit their country and making people hate eachother. 

How is it the invention of the west? I´m really buffled by it. Is it the west that makes people say "Allah Akbar" before they blow themselves up and take other people with them? I get it that you don´t think those people are true Muslims and your concept of Islam is different than theirs - and I´m glad there´s probably more people that think like you than like the radicals (insallah) - but that is not how they think or at least act (I really don´t know how they think, I´m not a bloody mind reader). As far as hate goes, well, let´s not start pointing fingers my friend .

Look, I know there are good people among Muslims, among people of all races and religions, I´m not saying all Muslims are bad and all Christians are good. I´m anti-religion no matter what you like to call it - I hate what religions (all of them) do to people and I think they are the root of all evil. Not to say that some people don´t take the good out of their religions and live good lives. It is my conviction though that people are good despite religions, not because of it.

I guess I will have to take a look at the old threads sometime. I´ve been here since November I think, and my impression is quite different than what you´re describing. Maybe it all happened before November

I was saying I didn´t want to pick a fight, because that was not the intent of my previous post. Again, my experience and observation is, any time Islam is discussed, somebody escalates, gets offended, how dare you, bla bla bla. I didn´t want this to turn into another one of those threads that needs to get locked because of personal insults. I just wanted to make a point that it is admirable of AHA to speak out against evils done in the name of religions - agree with it or not - not many people do it (what anti-violence meetings were you referring to? Must have been secret ones). I recenlty posted a link about 2 Muslims being sentenced to death for translating Quoran. When laws of religion say it´s ok to kill people for something so trivial, and any jackass with some power can issue a fatwa to have random people killed (and there are people willing to do that!), you don´t think waht she did is something to admire?

See for me it´s easy to criticize religions, there´s no consequences for it, sure, somebody may get pissed, big deal. I think she risked her life by telling her story. True or not, I don´t know. But admirable (or stupid lol).

Which assertions did you expect a reply to? I thought I did reply to your post.

Melek and Armegon.   I have sometime or other felt like the things both of you have said.  But I have to reply to something Melek said.

"to speak out against evils done in the name of religions"

Before 9/11 the worst terrorist attack in US history was the Oklahoma city bombing.  An American extremist Timothy McVeigh was convicted.  It was determined that the acted to take revenge for an attack on a Christian Extremist Group in Waco Texas, the "DRAVIDIANS".  They were almost or maybe just as extreme as Al Qaida.  

I don´t remember one single Christian leader that ever felt the need to renounce  McVeighs actions as "done in the name of religon because "everybody knew" that he was a "nutjob".   And the killing of the Dravidians was not really protested as "religious persecution either", because regular Christians ´excluded them´. 

In the last 8 years members of our US government and their hired servants made up a story about weapons of Mass Destruction in Irak.   Even most of the Democratics in our congress accepted that story and now 10,000s of people are dead.  Most are not American, and certainly too many completely innocent.

There is plently of blame to go around.

That young guy as i said was searching identity, he found himself into an extremist group, they brainwashed him, then he fooled himself that he did this in the name of Allah which is a way to satisfy his soul and ego and which is not Quaranic. Do you think he is a normal person?

Yeah its not just related to poverty and ignorance, there are also many factors. Let me remind you also ignorance just not related to being educated in the first place. I used an expression there it seems you dont read carefully, i said they usually hire their minds. As for the attacks you mentioned they should be scrutinized very well, they have many aspects rather than religion, i thought religion is just used to cover up some other issue and to show a target. By the way how you come to conclusion that they were not ignorant. In addition you should a little bit think about how the life of muslims on Europe, how they seen by locals, then you can have wider view of the muslim´s life in Europe.

What a reply. I have to say this is an expression of pertness. If you want to hold on to discussion, you better refrain these.  How do you compare the situation of your country with the countries like Sudan, Somali, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and many others?

Because west using them to describe Islam by putting all people in the same box. Thats my point. In addition have you ever heard of the term islamic-terrorism before the attacks you mentioned?  By the way a muslim means, one who wants and lives in peace so i support peace. Now you decide if they are muslims. And let me remind you a reality, according to west, muslims were always enemy to them, who they fought in crusades and later who they colonized in 1700’s.  And many muslims witnessed this hostility and today they see the wests double-faced politics and this increases the anger of muslims. The idea of seeing muslims as possible victims is just alien to the western mind, it was easier to see them as a burden or an enemy. As is clearly expressed today’s irrational Islamophobia. In addition i think you should also ponder on in the same way what make those westerners kill innocents in various parts of world and their legalized terrorism. You say we didnt condemn the violence of Islamic states and all we say “its not related to Islam”, of course we condemn that violence but whatelse you want us to say if its related to anything rather than Islam. Putting blame on Islam gathers no solution, just the hatred grows more.

This is your opinion,i dont think the same, but i respect. It changes according to what you understand by the word “religion” actually i used this word as synonym of word “din” which is a wrong usage by my side. According to me din is way of God and means faith. Its not an political agenda or ideology. And hate is such a strong word, i only hate whoever hates me. But i agree with you in to some extent, if religion becomes the manifestation of people’s ego, which allows the claim “im better than you” then for sure its root of all evil. So in my opinion, the only problem is human-being. Let me clarify, in my opinion all evil/satan stems from human-being which is an affect of human consciousness, not a cause. 

 Yep it all happened before November and many of them locked ...

In fact we had been many debates here. And in people’s mind its formed that this site is anti-islamic and anti-Turkish, so people began to question the intention and aim of the thread or post. Because of this many Turks and many members left the site, and because of this you cant see many Turks contributing to the site. And actually its not the laws of religion to say kill but the people who are using religion for their own good and for their satisfaction of their own ego.  And no i dont think she did something to admire, spreading hatred is nothing admirable i guess, put aside her hatred and lies, again she had chosen to be clown in political games.

You can criticize any religion by avoiding insults and by avoiding to humiliate people´s belief nothing wrong with it, i also do that. And my intention is not to piss anyone by doing this, i think this is one of our difference. Similar things i had said before, despite her lies, her story may be seen one of the extreme example of her culture.

I mean you didnt touch on the evil acts and politics of imperialist west which make many people mainly riots, you just passed their terrorism. They are the biggest terrorists if you want to see. Have you ever protested their bloody politics which make you live better? I have to say those are more bloody than the terrorists you mentioned. Why you ignore their terrorism? And lastly let me ask you a simple question, do you trust on liars?

That young guy as i said was searching identity, he found himself into an extremist group, they brainwashed him, then he fooled himself that he did this in the name of Allah which is a way to satisfy his soul and ego and which is not Quaranic. Do you think he is a normal person?

No, I don´t think any person who harms another human being in the name of religion is a normal person. Unfortunately there are too many brainwashed "abnormals" in this world (and I mean "everywhere").

As for the attacks you mentioned they should be scrutinized very well, they have many aspects rather than religion, i thought religion is just used to cover up some other issue and to show a target. By the way how you come to conclusion that they were not ignorant. In addition you should a little bit think about how the life of muslims on Europe, how they seen by locals, then you can have wider view of the muslim´s life in Europe.

I´ve read about their background, I think it was in a book by Sam Harris again ("Faith, Terrorism, and the End of Reason." - if I recall that´s the title, or something close to that. And no, the book is not about Islam, it´s about all religions.)

I get that religion is not the ONLY factor in many of the attacks, evils, etc. But I think it is as incorrect to say it´s not an issue. To deny its role in what´s happening is just that, a denial.

I don´t know about the life of Muslims in Europe, I do know about the life of Muslims in the USA, and the Muslism I know are not complaining, trust me .

What a reply. I have to say this is an expression of pertness. If you want to hold on to discussion, you better refrain these.  How do you compare the situation of your country with the countries like Sudan, Somali, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and many others?

That was a reply to your statement "... people´s first aim is to look after their family, its their most important duty not like the west countries" where you implied if not directly stated that in the western countries people´s most iportant duty is not to look after their families. So don´t twist my words, I´m reacting to your contrasting people´s priorities, not quality of life.

Because west using them to describe Islam by putting all people in the same box. Thats my point. In addition have you ever heard of the term islamic-terrorism before the attacks you mentioned? 

I think you´re doing the same, putting all westerners in the same box.

And yes, I have heard of Islamic terrorism before. Let me give you some examples: Grand Mosque Seizure, ´85 TWA Hijacking, bombing of US Embassy in Beirut in ´83. I can compile a list for you if needed. It´s not a new issue that just came about in 2001. I think the world woke up to it then. And it´s not an issue limited to Islamic terrorists of course, there are plenty of nutcases elsewhere too. 

And let me remind you a reality, according to west, muslims were always enemy to them, who they fought in crusades and later who they colonized in 1700’s. 

I have a feeling the enemy-making is mutual.

And many muslims witnessed this hostility and today they see the wests double-faced politics and this increases the anger of muslims.

I´m not disputing that at all. I think you´re absolutely right here.

The idea of seeing muslims as possible victims is just alien to the western mind, it was easier to see them as a burden or an enemy. As is clearly expressed today’s irrational Islamophobia. In addition i think you should also ponder on in the same way what make those westerners kill innocents in various parts of world and their legalized terrorism. You say we didnt condemn the violence of Islamic states and all we say “its not related to Islam”, of course we condemn that violence but whatelse you want us to say if its related to anything rather than Islam. Putting blame on Islam gathers no solution, just the hatred grows more.

I´m not diputing that either. But you´re lumping all Muslims together, as a group. Many are victims, sure. And some are the radical, terrorist killers. It´s as black or white as  you´d like to see it. I think Islamophobia as any phobia is irrational. But I think ignoring the fact that radicals use religion to justify what they do, is as irrational.

This is your opinion,i dont think the same, but i respect. It changes according to what you understand by the word “religion” actually i used this word as synonym of word “din” which is a wrong usage by my side. According to me din is way of God and means faith. Its not an political agenda or ideology. And hate is such a strong word, i only hate whoever hates me. But i agree with you in to some extent, if religion becomes the manifestation of people’s ego, which allows the claim “im better than you” then for sure its root of all evil. So in my opinion, the only problem is human-being. Let me clarify, in my opinion all evil/satan stems from human-being which is an affect of human consciousness, not a cause. 

It might be a difference in semantics. By religion I do mean organized, institutionalized religion, with dogmas, agendas, etc. I don´t mean personal faith in "higher power". I couldn´t care less what people believe in as long as they don´t hurt/abuse other people because of it. So I think we agree here somewhat.

And actually its not the laws of religion to say kill but the people who are using religion for their own good and for their satisfaction of their own ego.  And no i dont think she did something to admire, spreading hatred is nothing admirable i guess, put aside her hatred and lies, again she had chosen to be clown in political games.

Sharia doesn´t say to kill those who blaspheme, are apostates, commit adultery, etc.?

Wow. That´s a new one on me. Why the stonings then? The death sentences? Fatwas?

You can criticize any religion by avoiding insults and by avoiding to humiliate people´s belief nothing wrong with it, i also do that. And my intention is not to piss anyone by doing this, i think this is one of our difference. Similar things i had said before, despite her lies, her story may be seen one of the extreme example of her culture.

What makes you say it is my intention to piss people off?

I don´t think her story is an extreme example, I think it´s pretty typical. Maybe not in Turkey, but in Somalia where she was born or other Islamic countries. I don´t think you can deny that many thousands of women are going thru what she suffered (genital mutiliation, physical abuse, forced marriage, etc.).

I mean you didnt touch on the evil acts and politics of imperialist west which make many people mainly riots, you just passed their terrorism. They are the biggest terrorists if you want to see. Have you ever protested their bloody politics which make you live better? I have to say those are more bloody than the terrorists you mentioned. Why you ignore their terrorism? And lastly let me ask you a simple question, do you trust on liars?

Oh, I didn´t think that was the topic. I do protest the violence and the politics, regardless if it´s from the west or east. And I don´t deny that there is much to be angry about when it comes to the politics, especially that of the USA. Again, that was not the topic, hence I didn´t include that. 

You remind me of the communist propaganda when I lived in Poland. They also referred to the west as "evil, imperialist west" . Do you also get the news reels that USA is responsible for any agricultural crop issues? lol And gosh, when I moved to the USA, surprise, surprise, those "evil imperialists" were just normal people like everybody else. To tell you the truth, most people I know don´t even bother thinking about those issues, they just go about their daily lives worrying about paying the mortgage and feeding their children, contrary to how much anti-Islam you´d like to make them.

I don´t trust liars in general. In the case of AHA, the lies mentioned is something she writes about, I think it´s different than lying and not admitting to it. If I was a political asylum seeker and the only chance for me to get the asylum was to lie, I´d do the same thing. She´s open about it in her book. I don´t know if she´s trustworthy or not. But she´s not the only woman who suffered things she suffered. So I believe that.

Anyway, this is getting to be really long exchange, I don´t know if people here will want to put up with us debating this point any longer.

Let´s just agree to disagree here

Normally I´m not into giving links but the biography of Mohammed Bouyeri is too long to type myself and has some ´interesting´ parts. So you can read all about his "I don’t feel your pain. I don’t have any sympathy for you. I can’t feel for you because I think you’re a non-believer" and "in the fight of the believers against the infidels violence is approved by the prophet Muhammad" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri

Everybody believes in something, what makes them evil, is themselves in my opinion.

Why i trust you,if i have relatives and friends who are living different parts of Europe. They were seen as potential terrorists nothing more nothing less.

Actually you are the one twisting, what do u think what i said by the phrase "situation"? At first you just quoted a part of paragraph and replied only that part not in the context. Of course you mean what i was saying, you just chose to give an reply of pertness.

No i think im criticizing the politics rather than people. If you say their politics is normal, then you are also in that box.

You are again twisting unfortunately. I of course mentioned the anti-islamic propogand and its frequency. Why do u think world never woke up the terrorism of west?

You should first know what sharia is related to, 90% sharia depends on traditions and hadiths(their authenticity is questionable) not Kuran, so sharia differs from country to country, these are traditions hich had been made holy by their followers. In my opinion Islam promotes democracy by saying "there is no compulsion in Din".

You said “somebody may get pissed, big deal”, thats why i said like this. f its not your intention, then dont mind. Yes maybe in Somalia, its typical according to their traditions but when you relate to this Islam and attack Islam by not knowing its teachings then for sure people has right to get offended by this lies.

Actually the topic was Ayaan Hirsi but you changed the topic, anyway you started this by asking why i think west create anti-islam propogand, and i explained it by emphasizing their politics so you just passed them. Means you agree i guess...

The thing you cant get, i only criticized their politics not the people. I have friends from west who are normal people. The difference is i dont turn blind eye on their terrorism.  Their hypocracy is very clear, we just witnessed this about Gaza, the silence of west and the declaration of politicians clearly explain this.  Same applies to east’s politicians.

The things she said she suffered, are mostly lies as i showed and she continue to lie after she got asylum. So it seems shes an all time liar

I mentioned this before, let me repeat, this is just lie to Muhammed, how could a prophet go against the teachings which was revealed to him by God?

 I don´t know, I don´t believe there is/are (a) God/gods. These words are Bouyeri´s not mine.

These words actually not his words, these are the words of so-called hadith writers who had done more harm to Islam rather than van Gogh or Salman Rushdie. And this clearly shows how he brainwashed...

Ok, let´s just disagree and celebrate our differences.

Although maybe we agree more than you´d like to admit. I don´t know. I think you do see the world differently than me. You seem to have a very esoteric view of Islam, very idealistic. Good for you. I´m not so optimistic and idealistic about it (as I´m not about any religion, Christian abortion clinic bombers are no more "true" Christians according to the definition of those who get upset about Christianity being criticised then the female suicide bomber who killed 40 people just today is a "true" Muslim according to your definition). My view of it is much more gloomy. And I think it´s important not to ignore the impact of religion on how people act, whether you agree with it or not. And yes, sharia is part of Islam, as hadiths are part of Islam. Separating the two is like saying that Catholicism is just the Bible, but no traditions. It all is a part of the package. You can ignore it if you want to, and good for you, I´m happy you can cherry pick what parts of Islam appear to you as a good and moral person, and you can reject the bad stuff. I wish more people did the same.

And last comment, the Muslims I interact with have not shared with me the same perceptions as your family has voiced. Maybe it´s different environment. What I see is they lead normal lives, the tolerance is probably better where I live than where you do - the women can go to schools and work with the hajib if they want to for example, nobody cares. Of course there are bigots everywhere, so I´m sure there are those who will be victims of prejudice.

Sometimes however it´s also a case of "victim" mentality (I´m not saying that´s the case with your family at all, don´t get me wrong here). Many times you will hear minority members accuse people of being racist or prejudiced when they are being critical of whatever it is those members are doing wrong. One time some African American guy on a bus accused me of being a racist because my boyfriend at the time wasn´t black.

Anyway, I think we´ve exhausted the arguments here. I think we both like to have the last word, so I´m going to let you have yours and let´s move on to something more interesting. (And I need to get back to bloody -miþ participle lol). 

Last thing i want to say about this. This shows you dont know Islam well. Actually it is clear in the Quran that the real source of Din is just the Great Reading. As for the hadiths till now approximately 800.000 hadith recited and %90 of them rejected.  And today we also see the realiable ones so guess how are those rejecteds?  Many of them are the claimed words of Muhammed so can only  be verified using Kuran. At the time of prophet writing hadiths are strictly forbidden and all of these written nearly 2 centuries after him. Today we cant even know the history just a century ago except the main events with all possibilites we have. Now you can guess how those hadiths are reliable. By the way i just not pick the ones who suits my interest, i just follow the Quran which should all muslims do rather than hadiths or traditions. And im not the only one like this there are many people who thinks the same as me.

You sound as if you believe suicide attacks were invented by Muslims...when the facts are very different.

The Tamil Tigers are notorious for their well-developed militia cadre, atrocities against Muslim and Sinhalese civilians, and high profile attacks, such as the assassination of several high ranking Sri Lankan politicians, and the former Prime Minister of India Rajiv Gandhi. They also have the distinction of introducing suicide bombings as a tactic, and have carried out more suicide bombings than Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and al-Qaeda combined.The LTTE have repeatedly been accused of recruiting child soldiers. The LTTE are the only rebel organization with aircraft.

The fact of the matter is suicide attacks have been going on for a very long time. The first documented one was when Samson brought the temple down on himself and the Philistines...killing everyone......

""Samson said, ´Let me die with the Philistines!´ Down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more as he died than while he lived." (Judges 16:3."

They are one of the results of asymetric warfare....Suicide attack

Melek, you won´t convince them so don´t bother. According to some members here, the people who call themselves Muslim and claim to live by the word of Quran when they blow themselves up together with innocent people around are not Muslim, neither are those who commit honour killings and those who treat women like dirt. But secular states with all kinds of religions in their armies, legal system and churches next to synagogues and mosques are Christian.

 It´s not that they aren´t Muslim, it´s that they are ignorant Muslims who do not know, and consequently, follow their religion.

As for states who claim to be secular, if we analyse them carefully, we see it´s a very thin veneer. I certainly do not think those who call themselves Christian qualify for that name. They do not really follow the teachings of Jesus as.  Begining with Constantine, many of the basic precepts of Christianity were ignored.  The war between the Unitarians and Trinitarians began, as did the various inquisitions that followed.

Dear Alameda,

The "invention of the West" refers to the term "hi-jacked name Islam" that was used in a previous post I responded to. Nowhere do I express my opinion re who "invented" suicide attacks. If anything, I use the exaples to illustrate a different point.

So thank you for your lecture, however misplaced. And if I want to get more information on that or any topic, I surely do know how to do my own research, after all I do have a graduate degree, obtaining which did involve getting skilled in conducting research (and Wikipedia has never been even remotely acceptable as a reliable source in any serious research, just FYI). 

So thanks, but no thanks.

If you however meant your post to enlighten other members here, well, I´m glad I could provide you with a platform to do so.

Cheers.

Melek74

I am sorry to dissapoint you, my posts are not intended for your eyes only. At anytime there are many here who read, but do not post.

As for my use of wikipedia, it does have a list of resources, and is actually an excellent source, even though it is not as elitist as some may prefer.

As for your (or anyone´s) "education", it should show in the substance of the comments. If one has to tell us about it, maybe it´s not as valid as one may believe. I´ve met way too many "educated (...substitute programmed) fools.

By saying "You sound as if you believe suicide attacks were invented by Muslims...when the facts are very different." you did indicate that you were correcting my alleged misperception of the origin of suicide attacks. So pardon me. Maybe you need to be more mindful of how you come across.

I referenced my education only to point out that I do possess the skill of researching. You´re not the only one on this website that knows how to "google" information. So your comment was totally uncalled for. Maybe if I start posting info copied from random websites and multiple links to them, then my comments will have enough substance for you. I´ve met plenty of "fools" as well, who can´t come up with an original thought themselves, by the way.

If honor killings, blowing themselves to kill innocents without a cause is not related to Islam, then what should we say?

But the real thing is you dont want to see who are the real terrorits, i think just because those are your people not a religous thing . Just want to give an example form past, 20.000 women and chidren were murdered according to testimony of US perpetrators by the operation phoenix in Vietnam(while Vietnamese say the number of murdered is more than 40.00. These people were doctors, lawyers, villagers, teachers etc, just murdered to instill fear in the enemy. These are the real terrorist invaders just now they implementing this in Iraq or in Gaza. These are examples of civilized west

 Ok, we ´the west´ are the wolf and you ´the muslims´ the innocent lambs. Satisfied now?

....so as a scholar you are familiar with the practice of providing sources? You know, sourcing material? If you are logical and your opinions are based on facts....from where did you get your facts? 

When discussing historic events, I don´t think original thought enters into the writing of historic events, do you? In your analysis, original thought/viewpoint/perspective may enter, but the events are the events.

"Citing Sources
Documentation Guidelines for citing sources and avoiding plagiarism

In academic communities, the ethics of research demand that writers be credited for their work and their writing. Not to do so is to plagiarize, to intentionally or unintentionally appropriate the ideas, language, or work of another without sufficient acknowledgement that such material is not one´s own. We offer the following sections to help you understand how to cite the sources you have used in writing your papers, and to understand the nature of plagiarism and how to avoid it."

I do hope Duke is an elite enough source for you.....

Then you even have the nerve to argue with armegon about Islam. Now you are an expert of Islam too?

Thank you Armegon for that comment. How come then honour kilings and suicide attacks are made in the name of Allah? I guess that´s what confused me. I don´t want to debate theologically about which believers are right and which are wrong. If somebody kills people hoping for heaven after death and finds such promise in Islam, then it is an Islamic think. Now, you may argue it´s not what Islam is all about but they (not me) will say that you´re wrong. We´ve talked about Talibs recently - tell them they don´t live the Islamic way - I wonder if you´d survive it.

As for the US being the greatest terrorist. Well, I´d say that they´re guilty of loads of acts and crimes of war and that they´re not a peaceful nation but aggressors. Yet, it´s not because of religion but their foreign policy. To build a superpower like they are you need wars as they boost your economy. (And I don´t get it why you call them "my folks" I´m not American nor would I ever want to be one. Moreover, I can´t even imagine living in the US there´s too much in that country that I despise of and I wouldn´t be able to stand it on daily basis).

Sorry DD, then how can i explain these since you dont want a theological explanation? Becasue i will use source as Quran to refute their claim. Anyway simply i try to explain,  in Islam defending  your country, your family  against the invaders  is just holy which is self defense but this does not mean to kill innocents who did not do anything to you.  Actually many scholars say exactly the same thing what i said about Taliban.  I hope this clears your confusion...

I have not portrayed myself as an expert on Islam, history, politics, etc. Nor have I portrayed myself as a scholar. If you actually paid attention to what is being said, you would have noticed that the discussion between me and Armegon was about different opinions, not facts. I´m actually more interested in what people think than what Wikipedia says. And I don´t know why you´d call it an argument, I thought we were perfectly civil about it.

You´re just pissed because I called you on your attempt to patronize me with you post. So if you have an issue and want to continue with your personal, condescending and sarcastic comments, take it to the PM so I can properly ignore you.

  Yes....I noticed.......and you did not mention your graduate degree....Ior how you know how to do research....but it seems you missed something....´m not sure you will accept Marriam-Webster as a source...but the definition of argue

Jesus Christ woman, get a life!

See, the problem is not to explain those differences to me but to them - those who consider themselves to be doing the right thing and to have the right interpretation. What´s the point of explaining the infidel that the others have misinterpreted what you believe in while they´d say exactly the same about you.

Although you don´t believe me, I do not argue against Islam, I just feel strongly against the Islam fanatics represent (so in brief what you don´t call Islam while they do). "Normal" or "mild" or "the real one" as you perceive it constitutes no threat to me so I do not have any negative feelings towards it.

But this time their acts/beliefs become your prejudice since you ignore the knowledge.

Off ok Daydreamer, if also there is a contradiction with the truth and what you said, hereafter what you said is valid.

Hmmm....as spoken by an avowed athiest...when the chips are down, look what comes out.

Rather than choose to belittle me, or try to divert the topic, why not actually look at the substance and discuss that?

"Look, I know there are good people among Muslims, among people of all races and religions, I´m not saying all Muslims are bad and all Christians are good. I´m anti-religion no matter what you like to call it - I hate what religions (all of them) do to people and I think they are the root of all evil. Not to say that some people don´t take the good out of their religions and live good lives. It is my conviction though that people are good despite religions, not because of it"

I find it interesting you reference avowed Islamaphobes.....

"Also, there´s been a survey done, and I think it´s in one of Sam Harris´s book"

.........a man who says about Islam....

"A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world – for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a “war on terror.” We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise."

It is curious to me that you choose to reference people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris, rather that people like Karen Armstrong.

You bring up things like the emotionally charged term "genital mutilation", while ignoring the many mutilations in the West of women.... to enlarge their breasts... and a whole myrade of other mutilations.....and yes, genital mutilation is practiced in the West also...(called cosmetic surgery) but you don´t see it....and by the way, any mutilation is prohibited in Islam.

While it is true, there are some hideous things that happen in Islamic societies, as happen in all societies, but they are aberrant behaviour. Most Muslims are peaceful people who just want live their lives and have the chance to learn and practice their religion.  Unprovoked attacks are not part of Islam.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to realize that most all surahs in the Quran begins with the invocation of Mercy and Compassion.

Is that the same person as Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

Yes...I´ll edit the post....

Melek74 said "Alameda, there´s a huge difference between cosmetic surgery and genital mutiliation........... If you don´t see the difference, then again, we have to disagree here and further discussion would be pointless as well."

As I said, any mutilation is prohibited in Islam, so don´t try to make it look like I agree with any mutilation. ............then I have to ask what is it in a society that would cause a person to mutilate (have cosmetic surgery) themselves...Michael Jackson as an example...there are many others.

Melek74 said " Here´s one link with some examples (from a random google search, I´m not endorsing that website for any reasons"

You may not endorse it, but then I wonder why you choose to post such a disgusting link? Isn´t that an endorsement? As for your point not being to attack Islam, well, is sure looks like you either are blind or amazingly insensitive.

Melek74 said "And finally, my point is not to attack Islam, as you´d like to portray me, I´m equally anti-religion when it comes to Christianity and Judaism. It is to point out that a huge reform is needed, in any religion, if we are to make it as a human species."

Well, if the shoe fits....so to speak....here your recent posts are Islamaphobic...

Hmmm....you seem like an atheist evangelist to me.  I would not like anyone trying to impose any or no religion on me. Constant badgering the merits of one´s postion is annoying and tedious.....like one´s education, the merits of one´s position should be self evident.

Alameda, nowadays you can see lots of parts of Quran verses taken out of context and mistranslated everywhere to spread hatred. It reminds me the struggle between Muaviyye and Ali which made biggest harm to Islam.  So i dont bother any of them really, im accustomed to these .

Briefly as i said before, Quran promotes and also encourages self-defence and considers it holy. Since its the human nature, you cant be silence to the crime applied to you. I think Quran is the mirror of person´s inside, thus you understand Quran according to how you approach it. For instance if you think "hate", you will find hate and wrath in Quran, if you think peace, then you see peace in Quran, if you think justice, then you see justice. Negativity is like a virus infecting our minds and hearts. Thats why Quran says this negative of attitude is a disease in their hearts that reinforces itself according to the divine laws of universal development.

Quran tell us to forgive human-being and to pardon people and what people say. But at the same time for example parents can love their children and still fight against them. Just like a mother fights his drug addict son but still loves him. So we can fight with honor against those who applied us crime but this does not mean we need to demonize them. Its may be like hate the sin but not the sinner. We should fight those but we still want them to correct themselves.

We are accustomed to "parts of Quran verses taken out of context" excuse. Instead of moaning about it, why dont you come up with the ´correct´ translation and with their contexts?

There are many verses in Quran (or any religious book really) which make you wonder how those can be described as ´divine´.

As a note, as long as you come here to promote your religion ´how peaceful it is´,  there will always be some critisisim.

You better get used to it..

This is today´s news:

Islamic law to be imposed in parts of Pakistan

 thehandsom, you better stop talking nonsense. When Islam is being discussed, of course i have my right  to give my opinions.  You can take anything out of context,  if one only take the part of the verse to prove cruelty of the teachings of Kuran, we call this ill-intention. Let me give only one example, im sure that link also contains this;

“ 2/190-193 “And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers. And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God´s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.”

Anyone can understand from the above verses, fight can be made only againgst people who fight you and for the case of self defence. In its every above mentioned phrase, there is a check. ?...Do not transgress... Allah does not love the transgressors... Do not fight them near the Mosque unless they attack you... If they desist, know that Allah is forgiving, Merciful... But if they desist, fight not except the oppressors...?. Anyone has taken out the sentences from in-between to prove the cruelty of the teachings of Kuran. Similar is the case of other verses that are quoted out of context. Please consider that these instructions are not the instruction for normal peace times. These are the war time instructions when war is imposed upon the believers. Kuran instructs that the war is not declared on every unbeliever. Even during the war with the unbelievers, distinction has to be made in case of those who have treaties with the believers. Treaties have to be honoured. Even with those who impose war upon the believers, instructions are given for a respite from war in the four sacred months. “

But ill-intenioned people somehow forgot the verse 2/190 or forgot that these verses are the war time instructions when war is imposed upon the believers.

By the way mr. thehandsom, there is no exact translation of Quran in any language because its original itself like how a song translated in another language, mostly loses some parts of its emotions but still understandable. Also translator can add his personal interpretations(some with paranthesis, some with directly), personal thinkings or own understanding of the verse according to his/her view of Islam. Some translations influenced by hadiths, sunni teachings or shia teachings differs from translator to translator. For example in English there are several translations, each translated the verses using different English words, but the meaning is close. Its still better to read Quran in your native language but comparing it with the other translations if you dont know Arabic.

Lastly if you did care, the discussions is not started by me usually. Have you ever seen any of my threads promoting Islam? But people begin to understand why you are here very well

 Then you will have to listen to what others will have to say as well..
 

yeah yeah yeah.. There are very clear and distinct orders in Quran such as chopping hands of theives etc..

where are you going to put them..eh?

As long as your posts promotes Islam (or any religion) , there will be some posts slamming down Islam (or any religion)..
And Will you care to tell us all why I am here then?
Will you be able to discuss "anything, but anything" without resorting to personal insult!!..
Are you that weak?

is your  belief that weak? 

are your ideas that weak?

 I listen everyone and because of this i post my opinions, simply those are responses.

, very clear says who? ill-intenioned people? As i said its realted to knowledge and how you approach Quran, Here is an explanation, explains 5:38
http://www.submission.org/satan/theft.html
And here is another intepretation;

“5:38 (Theft is a crime that steals away the sense of security from a society). A habitual thief, male or female, must have their ability (to steal) cut off. This is the reward for their doings, and a deterrent from Allah. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
[For QAT’A, the so-called cutting of hands, please see 12:31. ‘Yadd’ = Hand = Ability. ‘Allah’s hand’ at many places in the Qur’an, of course, denotes His Power and Authority. So, consider all circumstances with wisdom, and take measures to prevent this crime in the society] Here´s the reference from Mathew Chapter 18, Verses 8-9 (The New King James
Version).
"And if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from
you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than
having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is
better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes,
to be cast into hell fire.
5:39 Whoever repents after the crime and makes amends, surely, Allah grants him pardon. Verily, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (If the hands are cut off, where are the making amends, pardon and mercy?)”

I have no problem about the posts criticizing Islam  till their intention is not Islam blackening rather than knowledge. thehandsom how many times do i need to say you that why you are here? Actually i havent see personal insult in my last post, but your post is far more cynical than my post.

Yeah yeah..
You mean even Saudi Arabia whose official language is the same as Quran, misinterpretting it..eh?
Do you believe Quran or that website?
Do you expect Taliban to go and search it in google and find THAT particular interpretation?
You are wrong..But Taliban and Saudi Arabian people are right..
You are clearly not following Quran!! But they are..

Why are you not accepting it as a fact..

Why is it a problem for you that why I am here?
What is it got to do with you?
Am I going and asking everybody why they are here?
Are you going and asking Alameda why she is here?

 Even if the post was promote Ýslam, as someone proud of his religion and believes, what so ever, i wonder, why do you feel you have to post something to slam down Ýslam ?!

I dont think you understand the question here..

If you promote Islam or any other religion, you think that you are doing something good for the rest of the humanity..

Well there is other side of the coin..If you demote the religions it is better for the humanity and better for the future, better for the next generations..

The ideas of religions are considered by somepeople as outdated, primitive and backwards!

And naturally, people will oppose the ideas which they find regressive.

 Maybe because he is Muslim, and he knows what he follows ?!

You are not Muslim yourself, but you try to force your understanding of Ýslam even upon us Muslims, saying that we understood it wrong ?!

And the right Muslims are Taliban and Saudi Arabians ?!

Ýts quite interesting actually !

Well, in Ýslam as all muslims know, and should know...no one can say who is the good or the bad muslims but ALLAH, that is really something we cant judge

But we can judge who follow the rules of Ýslam in the right way and who dont!

Ýn Ýslam we have 2 sources..JUST two and they dont contradict with each others...Qur´an, and Sunna, and by those ALLAH will ask us in the judgement day.

By saying Þahada, you as Muslim accept that as a rule nothing else.

 Misinterpretting ?!

Mmmmm, well i dont know, but Saudi Arabia has sentenced Egyptian medic 53 yrs old to 1,500 lashes and 15 years in jail for allegedly turning a Saudi princess into a drug addict.

She used to take an over dosage of the drug and SURELY it would be the Doctor´s mistake not hers!

There is NOTHÝNG absolutely NOTHÝNG in Qur´an, Hadith, Sharia allow them to such sentence, its simply not there...so is it also misinterpreting ?! Ý dont know what to call it !

But im sure you would like to see it as it was an order from ALLAH in Qur´an that they sentence Doctors to 1500 lashes !

As usual people are giving theH a platform for his words against Islam/religion. 

I wonder, is it worth discussing this topic with him. He doesn´t say anything new.

I think watching a hamster (theHamster ) on his wheel is more interesting than what H has to say about Islam. 

Pity, because he has so many other interesting articles here. 

I think it´s the other way around.

It would be really nice if JUST ONCE you would post your views on a topic instead of your views on the PERSON WRITING.

Do you think anyone gives a rat´s arse what you think of them?

  No I dont, I´m posting my opinion on the way the discussion was heading, just like others do.  As for giving my opinion on Islam, I´m a Muslim, end of discussion.

 Strange, it read more like your opinion of thehandsom

 What a strange answer - meaning you are blind to your religion´s radicals; to misinterpretations; to defending the true meaning of your religion?  WOW!  Now THAT IS radical!!!!

"I think watching a hamster (theHamster ) on his wheel is more interesting than what H has to say about Islam" sounds like hidden anger and the inability to rationally discuss your faith. 

well..

I am not dying for it..But when people come with the arguments such as "Even if the post was promote Ýslam, as someone proud of his religion and believes, what so ever, i wonder, why do you feel you have to post something to slam down Ýslam ?!", why do you expect they should not be answered?

Why do people need to promote their religion?

If they are promoting their belief, why on earth they get angry when they hear others critisizing their religion and what the others believe?

Some people proud of their believes. so am I!!

If it is bothering you that much, do not read what I write about religions..

I am not bending your arm and forcing you..

ps..will you also stop calling the hamster, TheHamster please..

No, I did not ignore the other verses in your link. However,  those verses referenced in the link were out of context and inaccuratly translated. Out of context and mistranslated, their use is questionable at best.

Likewise, it seems you choose to ignore the fact that out of 114 suras in the Quran, 113 begin with: Bismi-llāhi ar-ramāni ar-raīmi سم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Translated it is:

The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious and The Most Merciful, The Most Merciful in Actions

Charity is one of the five pillars of Islam. Which is to say, I think your choice of references is questionable and certainly not from an unbiased source. Compassion, charity and mercy are mentioned many more times. Every action should be initiated with those thoughts in mind.

If you have faith in a Higher Power,  or do not have faith is not up to me. Like I said earlier, it´s like sight, hearing or other senses, either you have it or you do not. To explain to someone who is blind the joys of sight is fruitless.

When you post disgusting inflammatory posts, and hold up as your heroine a known teller of lies, (who by the way is now part a member of the American Enterprise Institute) you must expect a response. As far as I´m concerned she is a sycophant.

I think this discussion is over (as far as I am concerned). Trying to get you to understand my point is too much of a Sisyphean task.

 The point of discussing religion is beyond me, no-one agrees, if you don´t agree you get called names, no wonder I have not time for it............... peace be with you all

 Actually handsom you were refering to my post here, and since you did, so my question actually was to you personally not to anyone else .

Reread my question, i said even if....

Why would it be essential to you to salm Ýslam down by every mean you can have?!

Why do i ask, because actually its not the first time you do it and as much as you try to show it as a normal thing to salm religions down once you find people believing in them...actually it is not !

Ýf i/you accepting everyone´s right to believe what they wish, it wont be the case, it actually wont matter to you if they promote they religion or not.

Talking about your believe, being proud of it, its not promotion, but its quite understandable that you see it that way, never the less, i believe its a natural feeling, if i wasnt believing in Ýslam, proud to be Muslim, well...i wouldnt be muslim at the first place i would convert to other one i can be proud believing in it, and i believe that goes for every religion and belief too not just Ýslam.

People are proud of their beliefs but that doesnt mean we slam down other beliefs...everyone has his/her own mind and see what suites him/her, and we should accept that.

What amazes me is that you dont miss a chance to slam Ýslam down as you said, once someone talk about it, and you start accusing him/her of promoting Ýslam and start wondering if it is a weak belief that is why people need to promote it !

As if it is a cause to you !

Yes handsom it is a weak belief and muslims also are weak and not really know anything about Ýslam, that is why the number of Muslims is almost %20 of the world !

All those 1.0-1.8 billion or something are blind and do not know the right Ýslam or see its real face which you clearly know better than all of us / them ! 

All famous TC debates on religion follow the same pattern. Somehow Muslims and non-Muslims cannot see eye to eye with each other. Why is it so hard to understand that it´s not the essence of religion that is being discussed but rather the social influence it has on some groups. I can speak in my own name only, but I believe none of the people criticising Islam detests its followers only because they are Muslim. I simply abhore those who claim that theirs is the only religion and will not hesitate to kill innocent people just to impose their religion on them. Murderers, suicide-bombers, people killing children just because they want to introduce religious order onto everybody - those are the people I speak against. You may argue they´re not Muslim, but they´d say exactly the same thing about you. They believe they read Qran the right way, not you.

Don´t we all believe that a person should be free to decide whether s/he wants to believe in God or not? And if they choose to worship a God they should have freedom to decide how they want to do it? That´s about all I want of this world (and a few million euros). Imposing religious law doesn´t sound fair, does it? And neither does punishing women for not wearing a veil. Arranged marriages, polygamy, honour killings - those are crimes that are associated with Islam. Not because evil west wants that, but because people who commit those crimes say it was right and justify them with Qran verses. You may have different interpretation of those verses but still it doesn´t change the fact that they think they live the way they should. And it´s not western propaganda, it´s Muslims who say that they´re the real ones. And that´s dangerous.

Religion should be an individual matter and the state shouldn´t interfere with individual people´s beliefs. Preach whatever you want, pray however you please, eat or don´t eat whatever suits you, but don´t kill me for not sharing your ideas.

 Well,  I´ll leave you to ponder on my psyche as much as you like, but don´t forget to slow down a little before you jump off your wheel .

 Agreed +10001

I may add to that.......

please don´t force your preaching on those who are not receptive......

religion does not mean much if it is coerced.

More subtle than my hamster wheel approach .  You are ever the diplomat LL . 

I would say people don´t appear to promote their religion on this site. It seems to me it is usually a case of people feeling they have to defend their religion because "they hear others criticising" it.  At the very least it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. I personally don´t get involved in that because, from my point of view, it just fans the flames.  If I didn´t believe in anything I would take the same view.  I don´t believe in forcing my views on religion on anyone, it´s up to the individual to find their own path in life.  This is the way I was raised.  We all have a different story to tell, which has shaped who we are and why we think the way we do and have the views we have. 

Of course you´re not bending my arm,  but your posts form part of some threads I read and they can´t  always be avoided.  I have read enough of your exchanges with Canli and others to know to skim them.  When I say ´them´, I mean all the posts not just yours.  If I want to criticise you for repeating the same old same old, then I exercise my right to do so, as many members do.  As the audience, I simply don´t see repetition of the same exchanges as constructive or informative. 

But this is only one facet of your posting life and I think I made it clear in my original post that I was only posting about this.  I simply think there are times when you make mischief . 

Much of what you debate is interesting and informative for me as a non Turk, with a lot of documents posted by you and the members you debate with, about politics in Turkey.   My only question is this . . . Which view is the right one .

Of course I realise that you may not give a rodent´s bum for any of the above.  It´s not a problem for me.

Have I grovelled enough I wonder

 What a wonderful post!

 As the thread seems to have gone seriously off topic, I thought I´d refresh everyone´s memories .

I haven´t researched, so forgive me if I´m wrong, but I´m not sure this is honour killing is connected to Islam.  I always thought honour killings were related to culture, caste and rigid family traditions etc. , not any particular faith.  I´m not sure, but I don´t think the Patna region is a region where Muslims live.  Islam isn´t the main religion of India as far as I´m aware and the names given in the news article don´t look like names Muslims would have.    The article itself doesn´t mention any religion at all. 

As for the killings, well it´s very difficult to put the feelings of horror into words.   It is very difficult to understand how disapproval of a marriage partner can motivate such violence.

Excuse me, but when you start debating ´how peaceful my religion is; people who are behading infidels do not represent my religion because they do not Quran properly; and look at this part of the Quran´ etc, I have every single right to come in and ask questions and comment about what they are trying to say.
So I will keep commenting on this issue as an any ordinary user could..
So get used to it..

 

Well I would agree what you say..But when the same users come with the same arguments again and again with the same excuses such as ´ah..but.. they dont represent my religion; my religion is peaceful; they dont know Quran; taken out of context; mistranslated´ etc despite the fact that several times we argued on these issues and despite the proven fact that they were just ´excuses´, then how come single me out on this?
Becaue you are a Muslim and their repetitive excuses dont bother you?

See I am giving a rodent´s bum..

 Strange, if this is the case, it is just coincidence that they always happen in muslim cultures eh?

The thread was not "seriously offtopic" at all actually....

actually the thread itself proves this wrong.

you now see why you make me laugh?

I thought the same when I read the article - having worked with many Indians in the UK the names mentioned sounded Hindi/Urdu to me.

there is no doubt about that. If they had been muslims, it would have been mentioned in the news. you never hear about christian fathers who rape their own daughters , jewish murderers, or hindu thieves in the news, but only muslim ones. not that they don`t exist.

Those news are all over the place actually..

I think it is just muslims being a bit sensitive about the news and they think they are deliberately being made news to hurt them..

it`s not being too sensitive or smt like that. if the ones who beheaded those people had been muslims, they would have said that they were muslims in the news. but when they are christians, jews, or hindus who commit a crime, their religion is never mentioned in the news.

why don`t we ever mention about the ethnicities of criminals in the news. note that most of the criminals in turkey are kurds.

Also I don´t often hear people justifying murders, rapes, etc. with religion. If they say that god commanded them to kill somebody they would usually be locked up in a psychiatric facility, at least in the USA, and heavily medicated. There are serious issues too that are related to religion in the USA, for example, denying to homosexuals same rights as heterosexuals have when it comes to marriage and relationships, if it wasn´t for the Bible and people who take the book as god-inspired word, those people would be treated as human beings and not as "abominable sinners". Or the issue of "teaching abstinence" to children as their entire sexual ed (and then being surprised at teenage pregnancies and STDs). Or blocking vital stem-cell research. Or teaching "creationism" in schools. Or using Christian rhetoric by former administration and media to justify the war in Iraq. And so it goes ...

 Yes, I also remember seeing in the original link that it was a cast problem. Muslims don´t use the cast system. Interestingly, the recent posts on it don´t mention that, they say his family was poor and hers was wealthy.

I also noted that the male to female ration in that area is 54% male to 46% female; which would make a marriageable female particularly valuable.

You might be slightly wrong on that..

 You are absolutely right there.................. the supposed Heathrow Bombers today, they did not once mention what religion they were, the Ipswich murderer, they did not mention what religion he was, the man and woman who killed their child, they did not mention their religion, the man who killed his family in USA lately, did not mention his religion, etc etc I could go on.............. the only place religion is mentioned as a cause or justification is here...................

Was religion what motivated them to commit those crimes? If not, why would they mention it?

There are murderers, robbers, rapists, mentally sick people, psychopaths, sociopaths, etc. among members of every religions, race, nationality, etc. Not all of them are motivated by their religious beliefs. There´s a difference between a guy who kills a doctor because the doctor presribed him medicine that made him impotent (true case) and a guy who kills a doctor because that doctor performs abortions. In the first case religion would not be an issue, in the second it very much would.

Religion wasn´t directly mentioned in the article.  It only said that the family of the groom was poor and the brides family was wealthy.   

 You´re so comical  at times.

Some figures for you: Religion in India is represented as follows: Hindu 80.5%, Muslim 13.4%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other 1.8%, unspecified 0.1% (2001 census) taken from

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/in-india/rel-religion

I guess this indicates India isn´t a Muslim country.

If you read the original article you would note that no religious group was mentioned.  If I were to make an assumption though it would be that the families were not Muslim, because of the region and the names of the families.  Of course I cannot prove this. 

In any event, I always thought that many practices in India, regarding family were more culturally influenced  than religiously influenced.  Many see a marriage between a man and a woman as a marriage of two families.  Maybe this is where the ´honour´ reference comes from, I´m not sure. 

Whatever the motivation and whoever the perpetrators, such killings are terrible.  I don´t think anyone here would argue with that. 

I trust I´ve managed to stick to the topic of the thread.

btw In my opinion the thread was seriously off topic and you can think whatever you wish too.

 I have Indian heritage Muslim friends and we have discussed this in the past.  Some Muslim communities in India do have a caste system, even some Christian communities.  Usually in the smaller villages.  It is probably more of a cultural system/tradition that has existed for an extremely long time.  If it´s a predominantly Hindu system and Hindus have been converted to other faiths over the years, it´s easy to see how it may have crept into other faith communities.  I would think it´s also hard to live alongside an approx 80% Hindu community and not be influenced culturally in some ways.

By your earlier reference to ´you´ in your quote, I presume you didn´t mean me personally, because I haven´t said anything like the words you quoted.

If you want to keep commenting, then of course, go ahead.  I´m already used to it and if I feel naffed off by it once in a while, I´ll say so.  

From the myriad of articles that have been posted about honor killings, it doesn´t seem to be something that is isolated to certain culltures/religions or parts of the world.  What is alarming is that the overwhelming majority of victims are women who are treated like second class citizens in many societies including the west.  I personally don´t see this is a religious issue....although, some perpetrators may claim it is part of their religion or culture or whatever.  It is sick and twisted thinking that if you are insulted, you have the right to kill someone.  I feel strongly that this happens all over the world, but is called many different things other than honor killings.  How many jealous spouses have killed because they only "suspected" infidelity?  This is not so much a problem of religion and culture but of sick, twisted human behavior that makes some people feel they have a right to judge the actions or suspected actions of another human.

Indian boy marries dog to ward off tiger attacks

Dad: ´It will overcome any curse that might fall on the child as well on us´

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29259293/

Is it something to do with honour killing?

Oh ..I know what is coming..

Dog´s family is quite rich and from upper caste and they will never accept the the groom..

And Although groom is Indian but converted to Islam secretly without his family´s knowledge (so there is religion in it  as well)..

And Groom is going to poison the dog´s family later on..

And the issue will become  honour killing..

 You are stereotyping dogs, handsom.  How do you know that the dogs family is not rich?  Just because they are dogs you are assuming they are poor?  Shame on you!

That takes doggy-style to a whole new level.

I am not!!

I am an eastern man..In Turkey, we dont see many well looked after, well fed, trimmed, washed , dyed dogs as you would see in evil western countries..

For us...YES..dogs are poor..Many of them homeless..I saw a few  with homes and their homes were quite small comparing ours..

Dogs are poor, poor , poor..OK?

 Haha!  I would hate to see the offspring (er)

 That would give some credence to the saying: "S/he´s dog"  

Maybe they could enter "Do you look like your dog" competition?

http://www.doyoulooklikeyourdog.com/

 I think the street dog forum is spilling over into this one....can we assume from both forums that dogs have it better in India?

 Well if people (I assume men!) are willing to marry "dogs" then obviously they have it made................. makes you think twice when you over hear a man in conversation saying that his wife is a dog  

  Or when they argue, he can say: "You bitch!" and actually not insult her!

Why assume men?

Check this link for an animal lover woman.

How did you find out about her?