Jesus Christ woman, get a life!

 

  

It is curious to me that you choose to reference people like Hirsan Ali and Sam Harris, rather that people like Karen Armstrong.

 

 

 

Is that the same person as Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

 

 

Hmmm....as spoken by an avowed athiest...when the chips are down, look what comes out.

 

Don´t mistake using "Jesus Christ" pretty much as a curse word as my belief in his divinity. Saying "inþallah" doesn´t make me a Muslim either.

 

Rather than choose to belittle me, or try to divert the topic, why not actually look at the substance and discuss that?

 

It´s difficult to discuss anything with you. I don´t get the impression that you actually listen to people´s arguments. If I´m saying A and you´re responding to B then we don´t have a discussion. It´s as if you think about what you´re going to say even before I finish typing my comment. So what´s the point? If you want to express your opinions on random issues loosely related to what I´m saying, then don´t pretend you´re engaging in a discussion, and if you want to have a discussion with me on what I´m saying, then listen to what is said and respond to that!  

 

"Look, I know there are good people among Muslims, among people of all races and religions, I´m not saying all Muslims are bad and all Christians are good. I´m anti-religion no matter what you like to call it - I hate what religions (all of them) do to people and I think they are the root of all evil. Not to say that some people don´t take the good out of their religions and live good lives. It is my conviction though that people are good despite religions, not because of it"

 

I find it interesting you reference avowed Islamaphobes.....

 

"Also, there´s been a survey done, and I think it´s in one of Sam Harris´s book"

 

.........a man who says about Islam....

 

"A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world – for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a “war on terror.” We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise."

 

It is curious to me that you choose to reference people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris, rather that people like Karen Armstrong.

 

Well, calling him an Islamophobe is very unfair. You´re coming across as agreeing with people who deny that there´s anything about Islam (or Christianity or Judaism for that matter) that makes people act the way they do. The point is, you HAVE to look at religions to see what is about them that makes people act that way. You can´t pretend it´s not an issue and keep a blind eye to it and say oh, no, it´s not real Islam, or oh no, it´s not real Christianity, it´s the people that are to blame. Well, what is it about the religions that is making those people misinterpret the doctrines? Maybe the, so called, holy books need to be revised. I think it´s crucial to examine religions with a critical eye and not dismiss anybody who does that (as Sam Harris) as Islamophobe or any other -phobe.

If you really do think that religious dogma and religious holy books are not to blame, and everything would be great had it not been for the people who twist the doctrines and don´t really "get the true religion", then obviously there´s a huge disagreement between us about that and I don´t think further debate is needed on that.

 

You bring up things like the emotionally charged term "genital mutilation", while ignoring the many mutilations in the West of women.... to enlarge their breasts... and a whole myrade of other mutilations.....and yes, genital mutilation is practiced in the West also...(called cosmetic surgery) but you don´t see it....and by the way, any mutilation is prohibited in Islam.

 

Alameda, there´s a huge difference between cosmetic surgery and genital mutiliation. If you are a 5 year old child that has your clitoris cut off, by force, without anasthesia, without your permission and understanding of the consequences, for reasons that are absurd, then I do think it´s a totally different thing from a surgery which you elect to do yourself, in a medically safe environment, with anasthesia, with the understanding of the consequences. If you don´t see the difference, then again, we have to disagree here and further discussion would be pointless as well.

 

While it is true, there are some hideous things that happen in Islamic societies, as happen in all societies, but they are aberrant behaviour. Most Muslims are peaceful people who just want live their lives and have the chance to learn and practice their religion.  Unprovoked attacks are not part of Islam.

 

I posted a link to a news bit during the Gaza massacre about 10,000 Iranians volunteering as suicide bombers to go to Israel and kill other people. When you have THAT many people, who are young, healthy, and educated (many if not most of them were students), do you really think it´s abberant behaviour? It is to somebody who doesn´t buy into the idea of martyrdom, but I doubt they would agree. Of course most Muslims are peaceful people. But just as in Christianity, I think those people are good despite the religion, not because of it. There are good people who happen to be Muslims. Just like there are good people who happen to be Christians. But that´s just my opinion.

 

Perhaps it is worthwhile to realize that most all surahs in the Quran begins with the invocation of Mercy and Compassion.

 

Too bad they don´t end that way. Here´s one link with some examples (from a random google search, I´m not endorsing that website for any reasons)

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm . And sure, you can say, they are taken out of context, and they might be misinterpreted by those who use them to kill (are they really?), and sure there are similar passages in the Bible (actually the Bible has more "violent" verses than Quran). But if you have to be an Islamic scholar, to interpret the book "the right way", to be the peacful religion you´d like it to be, then something is wrong. The peacefullness should be evident from the book itself.

And finally, my point is not to attack Islam, as you´d like to portray me, I´m equally anti-religion when it comes to Christianity and Judaism. It is to point out that a huge reform is needed, in any religion, if we are to make it as a human species. Denial and avoidance will not bring any changes. And also, just to clarify, when I talk about religion, I´m not talking about personal beliefs, I don´t care if you think life was brought to Earth by aliens, as long as you don´t hurt or abuse anyone because of it. 

I really don´t know what to add to this, I´ll be repeating myself. Either you get my point or you don´t. And if you don´t, feel free to disagree with all and any of it.

Cheers.

 

As I said, any mutilation is prohibited in Islam, so don´t try to make it look like I agree with any mutilation. ............then I have to ask what is it in a society that would cause a person to mutilate (have cosmetic surgery) themselves...Michael Jackson as an example...there are many others.

 

Again, you read what you want to read. I didn´t make any comment or assumption on your position on mutiliation, actually I had an impression from your post that you disagreed with it. I commented on your treatment of genital mutiliation and cosmetic surgery as similar or even comparable issues, they simply are not. I don´t know what the position of Islam is on mutiliation, you might be right about that. However mutiliation does happen, predominantly in Islamic countries, so that´s something to take a closer look at, wouldn´t you say?

 
You may not endorse it, but then I wonder why you choose to post such a disgusting link? Isn´t that an endorsement? As for your point not being to attack Islam, well, is sure looks like you either are blind or amazingly insensitive.

 

You made a comment about the verses in Quran. I pointed you to other verses. Are you choosing to ignore the existance of the verses on that link? You just illustrated my point, that people ignore what´s bad or wrong and turn a blind eye to it. Call it disgusting, and yes, I do think it´s disgusting that something like that would be written in a book that´s supposed to be holy. Islam, as any religion, is an ideology, and as such should be subject to examination and criticism. Why should I be sensitive to any religious precepts that cause harm? If I made a post quoting the passages from the Bible that are homophobic, would you try to disredit it as well?

 

Well, if the shoe fits....so to speak....here your recent posts are Islamaphobic...

 

That´s your opinion and you´re entitled to it. If you can´t differentiate between criticism and attack, that´s your problem, not mine.

 

Hmmm....you seem like an atheist evangelist to me.  I would not like anyone trying to impose any or no religion on me. Constant badgering the merits of one´s postion is annoying and tedious.....like one´s education, the merits of one´s position should be self evident.

 

Again, think what you want to. I feel passionate about the harms of religious dogmas and I´m not going to pretend everything is fine just because it offends your sensitivity. I´m not trying to convert you or anybody else. I couldn´t care less what you believe in actually, again, like I said as long as you don´t harm anyone it´s your business only.

Right back at you regarding the last statement. And your personal insinuations didn´t go unnoticed. You seem pissed again. Have a cup of tea, it´ll help.

 

You may not endorse it, but then I wonder why you choose to post such a disgusting link?

 

 

Alameda, nowadays you can see lots of parts of Quran verses taken out of context and mistranslated everywhere to spread hatred. It reminds me the struggle between Muaviyye and Ali which made biggest harm to Islam.  So i dont bother any of them really, im accustomed to these .

 

Briefly as i said before, Quran promotes and also encourages self-defence and considers it holy. Since its the human nature, you cant be silence to the crime applied to you. I think Quran is the mirror of person´s inside, thus you understand Quran according to how you approach it. For instance if you think "hate", you will find hate and wrath in Quran, if you think peace, then you see peace in Quran, if you think justice, then you see justice. Negativity is like a virus infecting our minds and hearts. Thats why Quran says this negative of attitude is a disease in their hearts that reinforces itself according to the divine laws of universal development.

 

Quran tell us to forgive human-being and to pardon people and what people say. But at the same time for example parents can love their children and still fight against them. Just like a mother fights his drug addict son but still loves him. So we can fight with honor against those who applied us crime but this does not mean we need to demonize them. Its may be like hate the sin but not the sinner. We should fight those but we still want them to correct themselves.

 

 

 

We are accustomed to "parts of Quran verses taken out of context" excuse. Instead of moaning about it, why dont you come up with the ´correct´ translation and with their contexts?

There are many verses in Quran (or any religious book really) which make you wonder how those can be described as ´divine´.

 

As a note, as long as you come here to promote your religion ´how peaceful it is´,  there will always be some critisisim.

You better get used to it..

But ill-intenioned people somehow forgot the verse 2/190 or forgot that these verses are the war time instructions when war is imposed upon the believers.


By the way mr. thehandsom, there is no exact translation of Quran in any language because its original itself like how a song translated in another language, mostly loses some parts of its emotions but still understandable.

Lastly if you did care, the discussions is not started by me usually. Have you ever seen any of my threads promoting Islam? But people begin to understand why you are here very well{#lang_emotions_wink}