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Great day for Turkey and Turkish democracy!!
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20.       turkishcobra
607 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 01:04 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

 

because i have this feeling that almost all NO voters did not know why they said no.. What a big contradiction is being disturbed of YES-voters to be called "they don´t know what they voted for" and then saying "I have this feeling that almost all NO voters didn´t know what they said NO" !

Huh? What is this? A camera joke?

 

 

 

 

21.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 02:29 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

 

Well it is actually.. The amendments are not more different than any other civilized countries.. Many examples are around.. USA/Germany/France etc.. What was unusual was the way the member of constitutional court members were elected.. Judges were electing each other..  Actually, the subject itself  is a bit deeper than that.. There is a constitution which can be criticized as not fit for a democracy and the whole bunch of institutions trying to protect that undemocratic  constitution.   

I think the only thing the opposition came up with was to scare people.. It was like sheria was going to be entering Turkey from Iranian border the following day.. The idea of a fascist authoritarian party coming, trying to muscle is a danger of course.. But the danger is the same danger in any democracy..And  you fight it in the democracy itself.. But you can not fight the regime of army+ bureaucracy in democracies as they were not supposed to in there..  That is what we have had in Turkey for so long..

 

22.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 02:31 pm

 

Quoting turkishcobra

 

What a big contradiction is being disturbed of YES-voters to be called "they don´t know what they voted for" and then saying "I have this feeling that almost all NO voters didn´t know what they said NO" !

Huh? What is this? A camera joke?

 

 

 

Where is the contradiction?

23.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 03:37 pm

 

Quoting slavica

 

 

I am from ex-communist country and I don´t see "democracy" brought us much good! On the contrary, what Western democracy brought us was increase of nationalism, wars, poverty of mayority and extreme wealth of a couple, anarchy and increase of crimes, "blood, sweat and tears"...

 

 It isn´t democracy that brought you these problems, it´s the corruption of the people who are in power that brought you these problems. This has nothing to do with democracy or communism for that matter. Where there is corruption, there is suffering. No matter what the political system is.

 

I think the people who were killed for expression their opinions under communist ruling don´t agree with you that "everything is much worse" now. People always look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. Under communism a lot of countries had a few good years, because everything was based on a lie. The countries were not sustainable. Jobs were created were no actual work was needed. The people in management weren´t the best managers, but the ones who could suck up the most to political leaders. And I remember the images of people standing in long lines, waiting for a piece of bread. After democracy, this image hasn´t changed 100%. Why not? Because the same people are still in power.



Edited (9/14/2010) by barba_mama

elenagabriela liked this message
24.       mltm
3690 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 05:33 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

 

catwoman, I wish every turkish citizen were as much as intelligent as you and questioned the governement and their changes.

As R. Tayyip Erdogan once said before being president, "democracy is just a train for us, when we get where we want to, we get off from it"...

Now, they get rid off the constitutional obstacles and their way is opened.

25.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 07:52 pm

The real problem is the structural change of Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors not the change of Constitutional Court. But of course they are very much related to eachother. Let me try to explain as far as  I understand. Before Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors has 7 members, 5 of them were selected between Supreme Judges who have no worries about carrier thus not dependant to Ministry of Justice by general assembly of Supreme Court of Appeals and Council of State. And other 2 members were Justice Minister as a chairman and Counselor of Justice Minister. Now after the change Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors(HSYK) has 22 members, 7 members are preserved same as the ex-one, now 4 members will be selected directly by President, 10 members will be selected between first class judges and public prosecutors who have worries about their carrier thus dependant to Ministry of Justice by assembly of Judges and Prosecutors, and 1 member will be selected by Academy of Justice. Before the effect of supreme Judges who are independent was 5/7 and now 5/22 simply. In other words the effect of political power in Judiciary system is strengthened, it was before 2/7 and now 12/22 and it also gives right President to select 4 members directly. Before it was violating the division of powers principle and now it is the same, only the effect of political power is strengthened. Besides this Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors is the council that decides the assembly members of Supreme Court of Appeals and Council of State and thus they affect the Constitutional Court since Court of Appeals and Council of State selects some of the members of Constitutional Court. It is like a chain, when one changes the structure of Supreme Courts, that affects all Judiciary system from higher level to lower level.

Anyway another important change that most people forgot is the check of actions of political power by Judiciary system which seems much weakened by changes, thus Judiciary system for instance cannot sue any action of political power overseeing the commonwealth. I guess this is one is the most important change that current political power desire...

Quoting catwoman

"Among the 26 articles comprising the package, changes are proposed in the way senior judges are selected.

Opposition parties, including the CHP secularists, argue that these will enable the government to exert more influence over the judiciary."

 

Do you think this really is a victory to democracy?

 

 

26.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 08:49 pm

By the way till now 80 or 90 constitutional laws out of 196 were changed or modified, noone called them great for Turkish democracy...

27.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:19 pm

 

Quoting armegon

By the way till now 80 or 90 constitutional laws out of 196 were changed or modified, noone called them great for Turkish democracy...

 

I guess, this one is more important than the others as it was approved by the people in a referendum and opened the way of making a new non-army  based constitution.

I think it is a nice thing and a real victory for Turkish democracy..

28.       armegon
1872 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:29 pm

But if the parliament had compromised on articles, referandum will not take place and referandum also points out still there is no compromise. Even 1961 constitution that the current government usually criticizes got 64% of people´s approval as far as I remember...

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

I guess, this one is more important than the others as it was approved by the people in a referendum and opened the way of making a new non-army  based constitution.

I think it is a nice thing and a real victory for Turkish democracy..

 

 

turkishcobra liked this message
29.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:50 pm

 

Quoting armegon

But if the parliament had compromised on articles, referandum will not take place and referandum also points out still there is no compromise. Even 1961 constitution that the current government usually criticizes got 64% of people´s approval as far as I remember...

 

 

 

I completely agree with the compromise.. But it is almost impossible to make any agreement with the opposition.. It is the cheap politics in the end..

I wish the difference was much more.. But then it would have been seen as approval for AKP. Which is not good either because a party should not be that powerful..

I really wish it was not turned into ´vote of confidence for AKP´. I really wish people talked about the changes themselves in the campaigns..

30.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 14 Sep 2010 Tue 09:55 pm

There was this nice analysis about who lost in this referendum:


-The army and judiciary (They lost their power. They are not a political force any more)
-MHP -ultra right wings- (lost serious amount of vote..Or his supporters did not listen to their party)
-CHP -main opposition party-(They still have not registered that "they can not be in politics as the lawyers in ergenekon case" and they can not win anything without producing a clear solution to Kurdish problem and they can not ignore scarf wearing  conservative population )
-Turkish left (Some of them become more right wing than MHP)
-BDP (PKK) (Some kurds showed us that if it is not for the right thing, they will defy PKK and its political wings. The changes have accepted without their contribution -with 6 million difference. With this referendum, BDP-PKK- and its politcal groups were planning to have more cards in their hands to negotiate but it did not happen)

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