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On Pronouns
(105 Messages in 11 pages - View all)
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40.       si++
3785 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 03:08 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 Surely you must know what " belirtili isim tamlaması " means.

when it comes to that translation , it´s equivalent in english ,  I myself translated it as "determined noun phrase " but you can say " defined noun phrase" or "defined noun clause ".....

 

 

Belirtili isim tamlaması is a Turkish grammar term. OK. But trying a literal translation by yourself is problematic and does not produce a good naming for English speakers.

 

First of all "isim tamlaması" can be translated as "compound noun" then if we want to bring the "belirtili" into it I would choose "determinative" for example.

 

Determinative compound noun

 

OK then out of curiosity I tried to google it. And indeed there is such a term in English.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_noun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_compound

41.       tunci
7145 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 03:26 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Belirtili isim tamlaması is a Turkish grammar term. OK. But trying a literal translation by yourself is problematic and does not produce a good naming for English speakers.

 

First of all "isim tamlaması" can be translated as "compound noun" then if we want to bring the "belirtili" into it I would choose "determinative" for example.

 

Determinative compound noun

 

OK then out of curiosity I tried to google it. And indeed there is such a term in English.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_noun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_compound

 

 If you read further down in your second link   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_compound

you would see, it says ;  Most English compound nouns are noun phrases (= nominal phrases) that include a noun modified by adjectives or attributive nouns.

 which means, the "compound nouns" is a general name whereas "Noun phrases " is more specific definition in which "Mavili"´s examples are classified as "Noun phrases" in my opinion.

 



Edited (11/27/2011) by tunci

42.       si++
3785 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 05:58 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 If you read further down in your second link   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_compound

you would see, it says ;  Most English compound nouns are noun phrases (= nominal phrases) that include a noun modified by adjectives or attributive nouns.

 which means, the "compound nouns" is a general name whereas "Noun phrases " is more specific definition in which "Mavili"´s examples are classified as "Noun phrases" in my opinion.

 

 

which means, the "compound nouns" is a general name whereas "Noun phrases " is more specific definition

 

I wouldn´t  think so.

When you say "X is Y", Y would be more general term (X would be a subset of Y or Y would be a superset of X)

Cats are animals (Or a cat is an animal). (Means cats set is a subset of animals set or Animals set is a superset of cats set)

 

So here noun phrase would be a general term (superset) and compound noun is a subset of it (hence speicific).

 

For example:

"Yolun sonundaki bakkal dükkanı" would be a noun phrase. Now would you call it isim tamlaması?

Whereas

"Youn sonu" is called "belirtili isim tamlaması" and "bakkal dükkanı" is called "belirtisiz isim tamlaması".

43.       tunci
7145 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 07:15 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

which means, the "compound nouns" is a general name whereas "Noun phrases " is more specific definition

 

I wouldn´t  think so.

When you say "X is Y", Y would be more general term (X would be a subset of Y or Y would be a superset of X)

Cats are animals (Or a cat is an animal). (Means cats set is a subset of animals set or Animals set is a superset of cats set)

 

So here noun phrase would be a general term (superset) and compound noun is a subset of it (hence speicific).

 

For example:

"Yolun sonundaki bakkal dükkanı" would be a noun phrase. Now would you call it isim tamlaması?

Whereas

"Youn sonu" is called "belirtili isim tamlaması" and "bakkal dükkanı" is called "belirtisiz isim tamlaması".

 

As you know "compound" in english means "Anything made by combining several things ",

"anything" gives us clue about it´s quality of being general.

http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/nouncompound.htm

A compound noun is a noun that is made up of two or more words. Most compound nouns in English are formed by nouns modified by other nouns or adjectives.

so it tells us that compound noun has subsets which are ;

1. İsim tamlaması ---> Noun phrase [clause]

   isim + isim [ Noun + Noun ]

  1.a - Belirtili isim tamlaması ---> Defined noun phrase

          Ali´nin kitabı ---> Ali´s book

  1.b-  Belirtisiz isim tamlaması --> Undefined noun phrase

          Diş fırçası ---> Tooth paste [in here the modifier is nominative]

  1.c-  Takısız isim tamlaması ---> Nominative noun phrase

         Yumuşak saç ---> Soft hair [in here both modifier and modified noun is nominative]

  1.d -  Zincirleme isim tamlaması ---> Noun phrase that has more than 1 noun phrase in it. In other words two or more noun phrase structure in one.

     Evin mutfak dolabı ---> 1. Evin mutfak dolabı ---> The kitchen cabinet of the house.

                                       2. Mutfak dolabı  ---> Kitchen cabinet.

                                       As we see there are two noun phrases in one form above.

2. Sıfat tamlaması ----> Adjective phrase [clause]

    2.a - Sıfat + isim [ Adjective + Noun]

          Adjective phrase is formed by an adjective comes first and then noun comes after it.         

          Büyük  insan ---> Great man [Big man]

          Küçük masa ---> Small table

          Üç elma ---> Three apples

          O adam  ---> That man

 

         

 

44.       si++
3785 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 07:41 pm

tunci,

 

Why is that lengthy stuff? Are you trying to trying to justify the following claim of yours?

 

which means, the "compound nouns" is a general name whereas "Noun phrases " is more specific definition

 


45.       tunci
7145 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 08:01 pm

 

Quoting si++

tunci,

 

Why is that lengthy stuff? Are you trying to trying to justify the following claim of yours?

 

which means, the "compound nouns" is a general name whereas "Noun phrases " is more specific definition

 

 

 

 Si ++,

I made my point with that lenghty stuff. As you see there are four types of  subset noun clauses [belirtili,belirtisiz,takısız,zincirleme] and 1 adjective clause. would that be fair to take "Noun phrases [clauses] " as general name [superset] while they appear as subsets?

what would your suggestion be  ?



Edited (11/27/2011) by tunci

46.       Abla
3642 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 08:07 pm

Gentlemen, I think a noun phrase is a term of parse. The phrase is a noun in its relationship with the verbal phrase of the sentence, that is the predicate and its modifiers.

Whereas we talk about compound nouns in connection of lexeme classification, parts of speech.

They represent two different ways to see it.

I may be wrong.

tunci liked this message
47.       tunci
7145 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 08:48 pm

 

I claim a new name as a general name ; "completionazation "[Tamamlama,Tamlama] I dont know if it sounds correct in english or not. But in general  the first item completes the following one.

  as we know the general name today we use for it is "tamlama" which means "to make it whole ". The first item completes the second [following] one in the ways of ;

its number --> 3 elma

its ownership --> Mavili´nin kalemi [ Mavili´s pencil]

its quality ---> Büyük kapı

etc........

 

48.       Abla
3642 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 09:09 pm

Don´t you use the term attribute (nitelik?) at all in your syntax? All the above examples seem attributes to me. Examples of combinations which I used to understand as compound nouns before are kadın başkanı, okul çantası, Taksim Meydanı which do not include ownership meaning at all (which you call belirtisiz tamlamalar or what?).

49.       tunci
7145 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 09:35 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Don´t you use the term attribute (nitelik?) at all in your syntax? All the above examples seem attributes to me. Examples of combinations which I used to understand as compound nouns before are kadın başkanı, okul çantası, Taksim Meydanı which do not include ownership meaning at all (which you call belirtisiz tamlamalar or what?).

 

Yes we use that term [ nitelik] in our syntax.. As you said all examples below the first words [noun or adjective] attributes the following nouns in quantity, ownership and quality.

its number --> 3 elma

its ownership --> Mavili´nin kalemi [ Mavili´s pencil]

its quality ---> Büyük kapı

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 kadın başkan, okul çantası, Taksim Meydanı

Yes the last two are  "belirtisiz isim tamlamaları" [undefined noun clouses] but the first one should be; 

Kadın başkan ---> as both modifier and modified nouns are nominative it is "takısız isim tamlaması " " woman president"  ... we can make it "belirtili isim tamlaması" [defined noun clouse] by adding another another noun in the begining.

Okulun kadın başkanı ---> The female [woman] president of  the school.

                                             The female [woman] principal of the school.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okul çantası ---> School bag --> Here "Okul" qualifies the "çanta" and its function ,what is it for . The çanta can be used for only one purpose which is for school. So its [the bag] for school. it is not supposed to be used for other purposes. The question is that " What is the bag for ? " It is for school . [ what is the bag supposed to be used for ?]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taksim meydanı ---> This is bit different.. "Taksim square", in here the name Taksim is explained by the following word. I mean , in other words "Taksim" is "Meydan" . It is an explanation of  the name " Taksim  ", The question is that what is that [ taksim] ? It is a square.

Abla liked this message
50.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 10:54 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 Si ++,

I made my point with that lenghty stuff. As you see there are four types of  subset noun clauses [belirtili,belirtisiz,takısız,zincirleme] and 1 adjective clause. would that be fair to take "Noun phrases [clauses] " as general name [superset] while they appear as subsets?

what would your suggestion be  ?

 

I will repeat my example again:

"Yolun sonundaki bakkal dükkanı" = The grocery store at the end of the road

This would be a "noun phrase" as per wikipedia page.

 

Can we call it isim tamlaması in Turkish? It has two "isim tamlaması" in it:

Yolun sonu = The end of the road (belirtili isim tamlaması

Bakkal dükkanı = The grocery store (belitisiz isim tanlaması

 

So my suggestion would be to call it "isim tamlaması grubu" or "isim tamlaması kümesi" (I don´t have a grammar book around to check if it would be called something else).

 

And my point is:

When you try to do some "literal translation" of Turkish grammar terms you may end up with something wrong or not-so-exact. Better approach would be to mention them as is and explain where necessary.

Whereas

"Youn sonu" is called "belirtili isim tamlaması" and "bakkal dükkanı" is called "belirtisiz isim tamlaması".

 

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