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On Pronouns
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50.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 10:54 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 Si ++,

I made my point with that lenghty stuff. As you see there are four types of  subset noun clauses [belirtili,belirtisiz,takısız,zincirleme] and 1 adjective clause. would that be fair to take "Noun phrases [clauses] " as general name [superset] while they appear as subsets?

what would your suggestion be  ?

 

I will repeat my example again:

"Yolun sonundaki bakkal dükkanı" = The grocery store at the end of the road

This would be a "noun phrase" as per wikipedia page.

 

Can we call it isim tamlaması in Turkish? It has two "isim tamlaması" in it:

Yolun sonu = The end of the road (belirtili isim tamlaması

Bakkal dükkanı = The grocery store (belitisiz isim tanlaması

 

So my suggestion would be to call it "isim tamlaması grubu" or "isim tamlaması kümesi" (I don´t have a grammar book around to check if it would be called something else).

 

And my point is:

When you try to do some "literal translation" of Turkish grammar terms you may end up with something wrong or not-so-exact. Better approach would be to mention them as is and explain where necessary.

Whereas

"Youn sonu" is called "belirtili isim tamlaması" and "bakkal dükkanı" is called "belirtisiz isim tamlaması".

 

51.       tunci
7145 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 11:04 am

 

Quoting si++

 

 

I will repeat my example again:

"Yolun sonundaki bakkal dükkanı" = The grocery store at the end of the road

This would be a "noun phrase" as per wikipedia page.

 

Can we call it isim tamlaması in Turkish? It has two "isim tamlaması" in it:

Yolun sonu = The end of the road (belirtili isim tamlaması

Bakkal dükkanı = The grocery store (belitisiz isim tanlaması

 

So my suggestion would be to call it "isim tamlaması grubu" or "isim tamlaması kümesi" (I don´t have a grammar book around to check if it would be called something else).

 

And my point is:

When you try to do some "literal translation" of Turkish grammar terms you may end up with something wrong or not-so-exact. Better approach would be to mention them as is and explain where necessary.

Whereas

"Youn sonu" is called "belirtili isim tamlaması" and "bakkal dükkanı" is called "belirtisiz isim tamlaması".

 

 

 Si++ , There is already name for it " Zincirleme İsim Tamlaması "

52.       tunci
7145 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 11:21 am

 

Tahsin Banguoğlu called it as "  Adtakımının Zincirlenmesi ".

 



Edited (11/28/2011) by tunci

53.       Abla
3642 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 03:29 pm

A quick browsing of the etymological dictionary shows a strange thing. Almost all words with the initial n- are or foreign origin. There is one basic exception: ne and its derivated forms nasıl, neden, nesne, nesnel, nice, nicelik, niçin, nite, nitekim, nitelik and niye. The uniqueness of ne is booked next to the stem itself: “Eski Türkçe olup n ile başlayan tek sözcüktür.

The stem ne- is still basic material in interrogative pronouns. Together with the pronouns hangi- and kim- and the question particle mi it covers the area of everything that Turks need to ask one another. Plus a few other things as a bonus. As a subject of unlimited conjugation, possessing, derivation and compounding Turkish uses the possibilities of this two-letter stem to its full.

The underived case forms of ne have some special features in their use. The usual accusative form of ne is ne:

         Ne duydunuz, ne gördünüz? ´What did you feel, what did you see?´

neyi is used only when the object needs to be specified (‘what exactly&rsquo or when combined with other question words (‘what and when&rsquo. ne has two dative forms: the usual dative tasks are handled with neye

         Bu resim neye ait? Neye benziyor? ´What does this picture belong to? What does it          resemble?´

while niye has specialized to the abstract meaning ‘why, for what purpose’:

         Kendine bunu niye yaptın? ´Why did you do this to yourself?´

The ablative form neden in questions also means ‘why’ but at the same time the word has lexicalized into a synonyme of sebep ‘reason’.’

         Türkiye-İsrail geriliminin nedeni budur. ´The reason for the tension between Turkey            and Israel is this.´

The path into a full noun has maybe gone through a kind af meta-talk where neden represents ‘a why-question’:

         bazı nedenlerin cevapları ´answers to a few why´s´.

The use of ne- with possessive suffixes opens a series of new meanings. The following expressions are tightly connected to the speak situation and I can’t see a way of translating them into English without a complicated explanation.

         Bu okulun nesisin? ‘what-of-this-school are you?’

         Neyin nesisiniz? ’of-what are you what-of-it?’

Plural forms of ne are typically used in exclamations, when expressing strong feelings like astonishment:

         Türk kızlarının neler yapabileceğini gördük? ´What did we see the Turkish were                  capable of doing?´ 

The use of ne- in izafet groups shows that ne in addition to that of ‘what’ also covers some of the area of the English ‘which’. If ne could here be replaced with hangi…well, I don’t know.

         Ne dersi var? Geometri dersi? ´Which lesson is there? Geometry?´

I guess it is usual in all languages that the most common question words in colloquial language sometimes takes the place of more specified question words. So can ne:

         Ne güzel güldün bu akşam bana. ‘How beautifully you smiled to me tonight.’

         Ne karışıyorsun? ’Why are you interrupting?’

The ne-family wouldn’t be perfect without compound interrogatives which learners usually get accustomed to in the very beginning (ne zaman, ne kadar, ne için > niçin, ne asıl > nasıl) and derived question words like neci ‘of what profession’, nece ‘in what language’, nice ‘(how) many’, nere ‘where, what place’. The derived forms of course can be further possessed, derived and conjugated…The most important lesson of ne is that it’s no use trying to memorize the numerous forms. Starting from the very basic level of learning one has to try to understand the structures instead.

Henry liked this message
54.       si++
3785 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 04:06 pm

 

 

Quoting Abla

A quick browsing of the etymological dictionary shows a strange thing. Almost all words with the initial n- are or foreign origin. There is one basic exception: ne and its derivated forms nasıl, neden, nesne, nesnel, nice, nicelik, niçin, nite, nitekim, nitelik and niye. The uniqueness of ne is booked next to the stem itself: “Eski Türkçe olup n ile başlayan tek sözcüktür.

Maybe it´s because of a sound change. My guess is that ne < */ke/ taking into account that the question words are all k- based in many languages and it is part of the nostatic theory.

See this page for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages

Proto-Nostratic */k̕o/ or */q̕o/ ´who´

  • Proto-Indo-European *kʷo- /kʷo/- ´who´, kʷi- /kʷi/- (with suffix -i-) ´what´. Ancestors of the English wh- words.
  • Proto-Afroasiatic */k̕(w)/ and /k(w)/ ´who´. The change from ejective to plain consonants in Proto-Afroasiatic is apparently regular in grammatical words (Kaiser and Shevoroshkin 1988; see also */tV/ instead of */t̕V/ above).
  • Proto-Altaic ?*/kʰa/-. The presence of /a/ instead of /o/ is unexplained, but Kaiser and Shevoroshkin (1988) regard this alternation as common among Nostratic languages.
  • Proto-Uralic *ko- ~ ku- /ko/- ~ /ku/- ´who´

 

And other qh- words in Turkish all starts with k-

kim

kaç

hangi <kankı


The stem ne- is still basic material in interrogative pronouns. Together with the pronouns hangi- and kim- and the question particle mi it covers the area of everything that Turks need to ask one another. Plus a few other things as a bonus. As a subject of unlimited conjugation, possessing, derivation and compounding Turkish uses the possibilities of this two-letter stem to its full.

The underived case forms of ne have some special features in their use. The usual accusative form of ne is ne:

         Ne duydunuz, ne gördünüz? ´What did you feel, what did you see?´

neyi is used only when the object needs to be specified (‘what exactly&rsquo or when combined with other question words (‘what and when&rsquo. ne has two dative forms: the usual dative tasks are handled with neye

         Bu resim neye ait? Neye benziyor? ´What does this picture belong to? What does it          resemble?´

while niye has specialized to the abstract meaning ‘why, for what purpose’:

         Kendine bunu niye yaptın? ´Why did you do this to yourself?´

The ablative form neden in questions also means ‘why’ but at the same time the word has lexicalized into a synonyme of sebep ‘reason’.’

         Türkiye-İsrail geriliminin nedeni budur. ´The reason for the tension between Turkey            and Israel is this.´

neden is a noun here

 

The path into a full noun has maybe gone through a kind af meta-talk where neden represents ‘a why-question’:

         bazı nedenlerin cevapları ´answers to a few why´s´.

neden is a noun here

The use of ne- with possessive suffixes opens a series of new meanings. The following expressions are tightly connected to the speak situation and I can’t see a way of translating them into English without a complicated explanation.

         Bu okulun nesisin? ‘what-of-this-school are you?’

         Neyin nesisiniz? ’of-what are you what-of-it?’ 

Plural forms of ne are typically used in exclamations, when expressing strong feelings like astonishment:

         Türk kızlarının neler yapabileceğini gördük? ´What did we see the Turkish were                  capable of doing?´ 

The use of ne- in izafet groups shows that ne in addition to that of ‘what’ also covers some of the area of the English ‘which’. If ne could here be replaced with hangi…well, I don’t know.

         Ne dersi var? Geometri dersi? ´Which lesson is there? Geometry?´

I guess it is usual in all languages that the most common question words in colloquial language sometimes takes the place of more specified question words. So can ne:

         Ne güzel güldün bu akşam bana. ‘How beautifully you smiled to me tonight.’

         Ne karışıyorsun? ’Why are you interrupting?’

This is not correct Turkish. It should be niye/neden instead of ne. Yet you hear it maybe it is preferred because it´s shorter compared to niye/neden.

The ne-family wouldn’t be perfect without compound interrogatives which learners usually get accustomed to in the very beginning (ne zaman, ne kadar, ne için > niçin, ne asıl > nasıl) and derived question words like neci ‘of what profession’, nece ‘in what language’, nice ‘(how) many’, nere ‘where, what place’. The derived forms of course can be further possessed, derived and conjugated…The most important lesson of ne is that it’s no use trying to memorize the numerous forms. Starting from the very basic level of learning one has to try to understand the structures instead.

 

Constructing question sentences are very easy in Turkish. Take any sentence and substitute any word with a question word to make it a question sentence.

 

Example:

Ali yarın bize gelecek

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Kim yarın bize gelecek?

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Ali ne zaman bize gelecek?

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Ali yarın kime gelecek?

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Ali yarın bize ne yapacak?

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Kim ne zaman bize gelecek?

 

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Kim yarın kime gelecek?

... (some other combos and)

Ali yarın bize gelecek -> Kim ne zaman kime ne yapacak?

 

No change whatsoever in the word order!

 

 

55.       Abla
3642 posts
 28 Nov 2011 Mon 04:42 pm

The only question word which is difficult to place sometimes is niye/neden, because it doesn´t actually substitute anything but comes from behind the tree.

56.       si++
3785 posts
 29 Nov 2011 Tue 11:21 am

 

Quoting Abla

The only question word which is difficult to place sometimes is niye/neden, because it doesn´t actually substitute anything but comes from behind the tree.

 

Doesn!´t it? Let´s work it out on some examples.

 

Canım sıkıldığı için dışarı gezmeye çıktım. -> Ne için dışarı gezmeye çıktım?

 

Canım sıkıldığından dışarı gezmeye çıktım. -> Neden dışarı gezmeye çıktım?

 

Because I got bored, I went out for walking around -> For what, did I go out for walking around?

 

Gezmeye dışarı çıktın -> Niye (Neye) dışarı çıktın?

I went out for walking around -> For doing what, did you go out?

57.       Abla
3642 posts
 29 Nov 2011 Tue 12:06 pm

The problem is the question comes before the answer (but I understand what you mean: I can imagine the answer there).

I feel often tempted to place niye right before the predicate. The question word feels like the most important thing in the sentence, actually the reason for uttering it.

58.       Abla
3642 posts
 06 Dec 2011 Tue 02:06 pm

1. I have been wondering if the postposition başka and the pronoun başka have slightly different meanings. It seems to me that –den başka + the 3rd person possessive suffix always means ‘other than the thing that is marked with ablative, the choice being from the largest imaginable group’. That’s how it seems in my examples:

Bizden başkalarına benzemeye çalışanlar, bizden değildir.  -  ‘other than us’

Allah’tan başkasına yemin etmek şirk midir?  -  ‘other than Allah’

The pronoun başka (with possessive suffix and no ablative around) seems to denote a division inside the group itself, at least here:

Bazılarımız okula gidiyor, ve başkalarımız çalışıp maaşlarını alabiliyorlar.  -  ‘others  -  others’

Hz. Peygamber (sav) şöyle buyurmuştur: "Birinizin satışı üzerine başkanız satış yapmasın."  -  ‘other  -  other’

Is this the correct interpretation? başkalarımız in the above examples means ‘others of ours’. Can it also mean ‘others than us’ (some occurances make me wonder) or is this meaning always carried by the postposition structure?

2. I find strange uses of the adjective başka:

bir başka ülke

bir başka kadın

What are they?



Edited (12/6/2011) by Abla

59.       si++
3785 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 06:35 pm

 

Quoting Abla

1. I have been wondering if the postposition başka and the pronoun başka have slightly different meanings.

Başka = other, different

x-den başka = (any) other than x, different from x

In set theory: others belong to set A and x doesn not belongs to set A

It seems to me that –den başka + the 3rd person possessive suffix always means ‘other than the thing that is marked with ablative, the choice being from the largest imaginable group’. That’s how it seems in my examples:

Bizden başkalarına benzemeye çalışanlar, bizden değildir.  -  ‘other than us’

Bizden başkaları = Those who are not like use, Those other than us

Allah’tan başkasına yemin etmek şirk midir?  -  ‘other than Allah’ yes

The pronoun başka (with possessive suffix and no ablative around) seems to denote a division inside the group itself, at least here:

Bazılarımız okula gidiyor, ve başkalarımız çalışıp maaşlarını alabiliyorlar.  -  ‘others  -  others’

This one doesn´t look good. I would say (personally)

Bazılarımız okula gidiyor, ve diğerlerimiz çalışıp maaşını alabiliyorlar.

Hz. Peygamber (sav) şöyle buyurmuştur: "Birinizin satışı üzerine başkanız satış yapmasın."  -  ‘other  -  other’

Again:

Birinizin satışı üzerine diğeriniz satış yapmasın.

Is this the correct interpretation? Not sure. I believe no. See I have changed "başka" with "diğer"başkalarımız in the above examples means ‘others of ours’. Can it also mean ‘others than us’ (some occurances make me wonder) or is this meaning always carried by the postposition structure?

2. I find strange uses of the adjective başka:

bir başka ülke = An other country

bir başka kadın = An other woman

What are they?

 

Başka should mean those who are not like us. (In set theory "belonging to another set")

Diğer should mean other than us. (In set theory "belonging to the same superset but another subset)

60.       Abla
3642 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 06:45 pm

Quote:si++

Başka should mean those who are not like us. (In set theory "belonging to another set")

Diğer should mean other than us. (In set theory "belonging to the same superset but another subset)

I didn´t see a better definition anywhere. If it is not so in the real use of language it should be. Otherwise there is disturbing oversupply in this lexical field (başka, diğer, öbür, öteki, what else?).

But shouldn´t it be başka bir kadın, başka bir ülke?

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