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Forum Messages Posted by vineyards

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Thread: Hiroshima eye-witness account

331.       vineyards
1954 posts
 10 Aug 2010 Tue 01:06 pm

The biggest paradox here is:

America is an affluent country

Boasts of setting an example for democracy for other countries

She is the most advanced country technologically

A super power whose reach has extended to the outer space

 

Yet, we are talking about the same old fashioned machoism, nationalism etc.

If some third world country did this, I would understand,thinking: "The guys need some time to improve themselves. " Instead, what we have in America is explained concisely in a speech made by the Italian prime minister, "There is a big difference between the perceptions of democracy in the US and in Europe."



Edited (8/10/2010) by vineyards



Thread: fashion in turkey

332.       vineyards
1954 posts
 10 Aug 2010 Tue 02:12 am

No, you can´t turn a donkey into a zebra just by painting stripes on it. Those people wearing veils, hijab and similar garments do this because they believe God orders them to severe visual contact with men other than their husbands, and close relatives. Those who knocked the doors asking for votes on behalf of AKP invariably vore scarves and they afforded quite a strong political interest group when the former government tried to deny those refusing to submit photographs taken without a veil, of a chance to enter university exams. They organized large scale demonstrations demanding the right to become doctors or nurses or to enter university exams. They would not examine male patients, therefore would not be eligible for the job. Still violation of all existing international regulations governing the aforementioned professions would be no problem for them. These people were not doing all this just for the hell of it. They indeed regard scarf a symbol not only religious but also political. So, I may have a problem with this trend, movement or whatever it may be. If these people are a bunch of teens wearing hijab just for fun and wishing to enter the university exams anonymously because they think that would be fun too, I also would like to be a part of the fun myself. Can I take an exam wearing a mask? Can I become a doctor even if I declare that I will not touch a female patient even if she is having a heart attack?

Furthermore, we have never said, these people can´t wear what they want. It is their decision. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It is just that we don´t need the urge to have empathy with people kissing their boy friends in public places wearing hijab. In Turkish there is a saying, "Bu ne perhiz, bu ne lahana turşusu." roughly meaning something like this: You say you are on a diet but what about those cookies?

 



Edited (8/10/2010) by vineyards

Daydreamer and armegon liked this message


Thread: Hiroshima eye-witness account

333.       vineyards
1954 posts
 10 Aug 2010 Tue 12:39 am

I generally don´t want to criticize bygone periods relying on today´s standards. These people spent decades watching movies depicting the heroism of their soldiers with no mention of the cruelties and crimes that happened in between. A few directors shot a few alternative films illustrating the dark side of the past wars the American army got involved in.

Not just America, even our TV kept broadcasting an endless string of war movies. The themes and the settings were numerous but there was one thing that never changed, the Americans played the good guys. They were the good guys against the Indians, Vietnamese, Koreans and Germans.

Now it is not difficult the understand why these people felt jubilant at the time. Unlike you I think they would still be jubilant if the incident happened today. It goes without saying there are many Americans with common sense. For your information, the crew of Enola Gay repeatedly stated they had no remorse of the incident:

 

"No, I had no problem with it," he told The Guardian in 2002. "I knew we did the right thing."

When he was given the assignment he said he thought, "Yes, we´re going to kill a lot of people, but by God we´re going to save a lot of lives. We won´t have to invade (Japan)."

Other crew members made similar statements. I think one such statement was made a very short while ago. These people feel no remorse, the government feels everything was done by the book, judges see nothing wrong.

 

Well, they fear other countries may develop nuclear arms. Even if the US has the largest stock of nuclear weapons in their arsenal, they don´t want countries like Iran to develop one (this point was repeatedly denied by Iran.) If Iran does not stop, the US will have to invade Iran. As you see, the US is one country behind every power game in the world. I understand they are a super power but I have a right to criticize. Thank God, I still have that right. Hope my children can say the same thing some 40 years later.



Edited (8/10/2010) by vineyards



Thread: Dangerous games

334.       vineyards
1954 posts
 10 Aug 2010 Tue 12:20 am

I posted this message. It seems it has become anonymous. There is some sort of freaky thing going on with this thread. Could it be Poltergeist?

Quote:

OK. I´ve read the article written by Nabi Yagci, the former secretary general of Turkish Communist Party. I´ve found an extensive article featuring him exclusively:

http://www.iscimucadelesi.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=404&Itemid=69

 

I have also found a strange similarity between you and him after reading this paragraph:

"Nabi Yagci and people of his ilk will not give up on their opinions which are borrowed from the junkyard of history unless they witness labour blows like the one on 15 and 16 of June."

 

 



Thread: fashion in turkey

335.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 10:31 pm

Well, I think I was pointing out to an obvious contradiction. I am not seeking to demonize these people but a contradiction is a contradiction and theirs is quite a remarkable one. At least, it is for me.

Quoting oeince

 

I do have a problem with that approach. Why do those girls have to be angels? Why do they have to live consistent? Do we always live like we believe? Are we wonderful? Why do they have to be wonderful? In order they wear sth. visible on their heads? I believe that they have the right to be incoherent at least as much as us. Emphaty please. These are just teenagers or young ladies who watch the vampire movies and fall in love with the vampire guy. They have the same passions and wonders as their peers have. Although these "kissing girls" or "*ss showing" girls are a very minor group of covered girls, i think it is not favourable to talk about anyone´s personal choices and acts.

Those girls are socially tortured. They are victims of mobbing. Not just matured people in that site high officers and politicians even talk about how they shall get dressed and how they shall act. That aristocratic paparazzi show has to end as soon as possible. Because while we otherize a significant group of young people, we also destroy the trust relation between the community and state. 

We should focus on what these girls are capable to produce rather than how they are capable to turn the man on. Education and working bans for covered girls not just socially suppress these girls but also lacks us from their production capacity.

 

 



Thread: fashion in turkey

336.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 02:13 pm

Here is a curious question. Do you think Santa Claus is a religious symbol? He is featured in cartoons, children´s books and man wearing Santa outfit freely walk in the streets. The outfit can be instrumental in hiding one´s identity or even sex. That´s why it is sometimes used by robbers.

If Santa is a religious symbol then Santa outfits must also be banned.

 

P.S. I am not even talking about the sisters in monasteries.

Jae liked this message


Thread: fashion in turkey

337.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 01:42 pm

One of the underlying reasons of veil must be cutting off women from social life as much as possible. I don´t think this is an Islamic rule, most experts say there is not such a verse in Quran. It might be an Arabic tradition. While depicting the social life of the Arabs at the time of Mohammad, the Quran makes references to how people bury their daughters in sand to get rid of them. Maybe, they needed boys who could protect their families during a period dominated by bandits. As far as I know the rules of inheritance favoured the male sex even before Islam. It was customary to offer for the father of a girl to offer some sort of a drahoma to a man wishing to marry her. 

In a society, with such primitive traditions Islam must have been like a revolution. There a a number of ethical rules in Islam which are hard to obey. Having become obsessed with religion with an equally strong unethical background (from a Western point of view) which the Quran names as "the period of ignorance"  (cahiliye devri) Arabic people developed a dual thinking strategy. Since, everything is done in the name of Allah, there is no way for women to wake up to the reality. They feel they live their lives in line with the teachings of Quran. I can´t judge them nor can I change the world for them. No freedom is gained without striving for it. In order to strive for a cause you must have a burning desire to accomplish it. Presently, it is a different world with a different set of realities. The world will never be perfect. There will always be problems as long as there are people around.

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

The short summary, everything that gets effected by female hormones, should physically turn a hetero sexual male on (I´m not talking about personality here, just the body). Hair is something even young children have. Other parts of the body that do change after puberty, like the hips of a woman and other shapes, should be more sexually attractive.

 

 



Edited (8/8/2010) by vineyards



Thread: fashion in turkey

338.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 01:21 pm

If only if it were so easy as it is summed up in your question. Turkey is a Muslim country. You know populationwise it is on a par with countries like the UK and Germany. There is not a single opinion about whether to ban veil.

Hijab is not singularly a religious rule but more like a tradition for countries like Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland etc. That means they complement the rules of their religion with the traditions of their own. Most urban people have roots in the village where in a rural life style, women must cover their hair and wear longer and more casual looking skirts. Since they also want to appear attractive, they often ornament their garments with emroidery, lacework or fabric painting. When you go to a village, you could see attractive young women doing their daily work. Like all aspects of their life, their garments look natural being the products of their own culture.

The West considers veil and hijab as strictly religious symbols and impose a ban on them on the ground that religious symbols are not allowed in public places. To what extent this conforms with the general attitude of the public in Europe is a matter of question. This is being done for the purpose of protecting children from stereotypes during their education. In Turkey, veil is considered as a religious symbol but those scarves worn by the villagers are not considered as such. As a matter of fact there is a huge difference between these two.

Islamists as they are called fought for the cause for decades calling for freedom to hijab. Their party is in power now. They have gained a number of rights but various institutions in Turkey including the military, the justice system and the local municipalities do their best to resist the transformation of the country into an Islamic regime.

 

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

How come it´s applauded if a Muslim country does it, but it´s labelled as racist when a European country does the same?

 

 



Edited (8/8/2010) by vineyards

suejohnriley liked this message


Thread: fashion in turkey

339.       vineyards
1954 posts
 07 Aug 2010 Sat 02:14 pm

We see young women wearing hijabs kissing their boy friends in parks. They say God ordered women to cover their bodies. I don´t know about the kissing in public places part.

In Turkey, there has lately been a massive exchange of capital between Islamists and non-Islamists. With so much money coming in their way thanks to the AKP regime, they appear in expensive convertable cars cruising through fashionable streets.

It is good in a way. A considerable proportion of the population has now become significantly more affluent. They are in a process of learning about the more colorful aspects of life. They have discovered fashion, the need for looking attractive and have converted themselves a bit in the process. Since they are the ones with the means to enjoy a lush life, they have been able to acquire more diversified and more sophisticated tastes. All this has been the beginning of a transformation from the patriarchal family model. Money transforms everything. Nevertheless stereotypes generally trail behind.

Jae liked this message


Thread: Hiroshima eye-witness account

340.       vineyards
1954 posts
 07 Aug 2010 Sat 03:36 am

Well, let´s concentrate on the incident, if we can. Here are excerpts from Truman´s address in the aftermath of Hiroshima bombing.

"The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians. But that attack is only a warning of things to come. If Japan does not surrender, bombs will have to be dropped on her war industries and, unfortunately, thousands of civilian lives will be lost. I urge Japanese civilians to leave industrial cities immediately, and save themselves from destruction."

They would later say, Truman did not know at the time of speaking that Hiroshima was a city, he thought it was a military base... Oh yes, after years of organized effort that involved all sorts of classified activities and as the person who relied on the development of such a weapon to gain an edge at the war, he didn´t know that his boys had bombed a city.

Take a look at this:

A Gallup poll about presidential greatness, taken February 9–11, 2007, asked 1006 adults in the US, "Who do you regard as the greatest United States president?"[15]

  1. Abraham Lincoln (18%)
  2. Ronald Reagan (16%)
  3. John F. Kennedy (14%)
  4. Bill Clinton (13%)
  5. Franklin Roosevelt (9%)
  6. Other/None/No opinion (8%)
  7. George Washington (7%)
  8. Harry Truman (3%)
  9. George W. Bush (2%)
  10. Theodore Roosevelt (2%)
  11. Dwight Eisenhower (2%)
  12. Thomas Jefferson (2%)
  13. Jimmy Carter (2%)
  14. Gerald Ford (1%)
  15. George H.W. Bush (1%)
  16. Richard Nixon (0%)

 

Source Wikipedia.

 

I don´t know how many ashamed Americans there are out there but Harry Truman the proud perpetrator of the ugliest ever warcrime in recorded history ranks 8th, immediately after George Washington. If this is not an endorsement of his decisions as a president, what is it?



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