Practice Turkish |
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I. Mastar Hali - The Infinitive
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| 120. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:31 pm |
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I think I now understood what Elisa meant. The verb in my example was istemek and it can take a direct object.
gitmek: intransitive verb. Doesnt take direct object (no accusative case with nouns or verbal nouns)
istemek: transitive verb. Takes direct object (accusative case) -i istemek
Bu dondurmayı istiyorum.
Yüzmeyi istiyorum.
Gitmeyi istiyorum.
Fransızca konuşmayı istiyorum.
yüzmek (to swim)*: intransitive verbs. Doesnt take direct object (accusative case)
bilmek: transitive verb. Takes direct object
İngilizce konuşmayı biliyor musun?
Yolu biliyor musun?
* we have other verbs as yüzmek which are transitive but yüzmek as to swim isnt.
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| 121. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:38 pm |
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Quoting erdinc: Yolu biliyor musun? |
Appears to literally translate as:
Do you know the road?
Would I be right that the meaningful translation for this is actaully:
"Do you know the way?"
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| 122. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:42 pm |
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so the correct way to say i want to go is:
gitmeyi istiyorum
but we can still say
gitmek istiyorum
right?
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| 123. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:48 pm |
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Quoting miss_ceyda: so the correct way to say i want to go is:
gitmeyi istiyorum
but we can still say
gitmeyi istiyorum
right? |
I assume you mean we can still say "gitmek istiyorum" 
I think that has to be true because otherwise there would never be a real example of "mastar hali". My understanding is that the use of bare infinitives is OK so long as the verb in the infinitive does not have a subject.
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| 124. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:52 pm |
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yeah thanks for pointing that out.. it was obvious what i meant.. i apologise.. im not thinking straight tonight...
and bod, u sound more of an expert than me.. :S
i think one day i will be asking you to teach me turkish!!
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| 125. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:55 pm |
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Quoting erdinc: I think I now understood what Elisa meant. The verb in my example was istemek and it can take a direct object.
gitmek: intransitive verb. Doesnt take direct object (no accusative case with nouns or verbal nouns)
istemek: transitive verb. Takes direct object (accusative case) -i istemek
Bu dondurmayı istiyorum.
Yüzmeyi istiyorum.
Gitmeyi istiyorum.
Fransızca konuşmayı istiyorum.
yüzmek (to swim)*: intransitive verbs. Doesnt take direct object (accusative case)
bilmek: transitive verb. Takes direct object
İngilizce konuşmayı biliyor musun?
Yolu biliyor musun?
* we have other verbs as yüzmek which are transitive but yüzmek as to swim isnt. |
It's not about the fact that yüzmek (or whatever verb) is (in)transitive. It's about bilmek and istemek.
To make it a bit clearer, I looked it up in my course, this is what it says:
Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek don't get the accusative -i-
Examples:
- Bunu almak istiyorum
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyordum
- Ali iyi yüzmek biliyor
- Ingilizce yazmak biliyor musun?
In any other case the accusative -i- has to be added
This is what confuses me. This looks like a very strict rule in my course, but from what I read here, there should not be such rule..? 
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| 126. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:56 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: [i]Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek don't get the accusative -i- |
i thought it was just for words with istemek...??? :S
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| 127. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 10:05 pm |
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Quoting Elisa: - Türkçe öğrenmek istiyordum |
Oh no........
Here we go again with a mixed tense between present continuous and past :-S
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| 128. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 11:41 pm |
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Quoting miss_ceyda: so the correct way to say i want to go is:
gitmeyi istiyorum
but we can still say
gitmek istiyorum
right? |
When used without any direction
1. gitmek istiyorum
2. gitmeyi istiyorum
are both acceptable while the first one sounds better.
When used together with other words,
1. Eve gitmek istiyorum.
2. Eve gitmeyi istiyorum.
They are equally correct.
Quoting bod:
Would I be right that the meaningful translation for this is actaully:
"Do you know the way?" |
Bod,
way is a good translation for yol. In fact we use yol not only as road but as way.
"Hata yapa yapa doğru yolu bulacaksın."
Quoting Elisa:
It's not about the fact that yüzmek (or whatever verb) is (in)transitive. It's about bilmek and istemek.
To make it a bit clearer, I looked it up in my course, this is what it says:
Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek don't get the accusative -i-
Examples:
- Bunu almak istiyorum
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyordum
- Ali iyi yüzmek biliyor
- Ingilizce yazmak biliyor musun?
In any other case the accusative -i- has to be added
This is what confuses me. This looks like a very strict rule in my course, but from what I read here, there should not be such rule..? |
I'm sorry to dissapoint you but the information and the examples you gave are both incorrect.
- Bunu almak istiyorum > CORRECT
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyordum > CORRECT
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyorum > CORRECT AS WELL
- Ali iyi yüzmek biliyor INCORRECT*
- Ingilizce yazmak biliyor musun? INCORRECT*
* These two are too bad mistakes a native speaker would never make. I think either your instructer isnt a native speaker or you remember his sentences wrong.
Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek don't get the accusative > INCORRECT
When verbs are object to another verbs they are not any more verbs but they are nouns. In Turkish the infinitive itself is a noun form of a verb. We have also a verbal suffix -me -ma which makes verbal nouns. This is not an important point as the following.
Both istemek and bilmek are transitive verbs. This means both of them take direct objects. A direct object is a noun or a noun phrase that refers to an object. In Turkish ve use the accusative case to build direct objects. In other words, both bilmek and istemek do take the accusative case no matter with any noun or a verbal noun.
I corrected the sentence:
"Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek both can take the accusative case."
Examples:
1. Türkçe öğrenmeyi istiyorum.
2. Bunu almayı istiyorum.
3. Kitap okumayı istiyorum.
4. Ali yüzmeyi biliyor.
5. İngilizce yazmayı biliyor musun?
6. Otomobil kullanmayı biliyor musun?
We can make even bilmek and istemek direct object of one another:
7. Gerçekleri bilmeyi isterdim.
8. Bir şeyi kibarca istemeyi bilmelisin.
Actually you can check any verb whether it is used in the i case (accusative) or not. If it is used in the i case than there is no limitation. Any verb that is transitive can be used with accusative case of nouns or accusative case of verbal nouns. Verbal nouns are nouns as well.
http://www.tdk.gov.tr/TDKSOZLUK/SOZBUL.ASP?kelime=bilmek
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| 129. |
29 Jan 2006 Sun 11:59 pm |
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Quoting erdinc:
I'm sorry to dissapoint you but the information and the examples you gave are both incorrect.
- Ali iyi yüzmek biliyor INCORRECT*
- Ingilizce yazmak biliyor musun? INCORRECT*
* These two are too bad mistakes a native speaker would never make. I think either your instructer isnt a native speaker or you remember his sentences wrong.
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I copied the whole part with my course next to me, so I didn't make any mistakes. That was exactly what it says.
The course is written by someone who isn't a native Turkish speaker indeed. I don't know him personally, but I heard he is quite respected as a teacher of the Turkish language.
Anyway, I'm not in a position and I wouldn't want to argue about these kind of issues, that would be quite stupid. I just wanted to show you where I got that info from.
Thank you for your explanation.
Elisa
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| 130. |
30 Jan 2006 Mon 12:09 am |
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I teach Turkish in London and I can ensure you that most lecturers who work in colleges and universities here don't speak Turkish very well.
Even in GCSE Turkish tests that were written by some of them, there are obvious mistakes. Most of these guys (Especially for London) are Cypriots who have been living in the UK for 20 years and have forgotton proper Turkish long ago.
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