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Living - working in Turkey

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What Pam Coo's case means to you Turkish serious friends??
(86 Messages in 9 pages - View all)
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70.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 06:39 pm

Well, I dont know the exact details of pam's case. But it looks like, you can blame both of them.

pam should have known how to keep ( and of course when to keep) her legs closed. It is no excuse you enjoy it at the time and run around like headless chicken later on.

The young father to be can be blamed for not being sensitive enough with the baby.

I know it is not that simple as above. But in a nut shell, it is to be honest.

Foreign girls are just looking at olive skins and dark eyes I guess. And for the most of Turkish boys, they will have a pass on girls under any circumstances anyway.

I think, specially foreign girls, should realize that Turkish culture is a bit different then theirs. Turkish men will do anything to make girls feel like they are the only living girls on earth and they will do anything to make you feel like you are the princess, you are the one.
But do not forget, 90% of those men/boys still think that there are two types of women/girls on earth: the ones they can marry, and the ones they can have fun.

It is up to the girl in away, to make that man/boy believe she can be in both categories.

Coming back to the case, Of course I feel sorry for Pam.
Done is done..
It is the situation right now.
The reality should be accepted. No matter if it hurts.

If she is young(i guess she is), she should somehow close this chapter and walk away(as a single person, not two! )


71.       Trudy
7887 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 06:40 pm

Quoting portokal:

that Turkey can be far more safer for a woman than some western countries.



Very true. I travelled solo twice for six weeks throughout all Turkey, including the east. Many times I was warned (mostly by Turkish men who themselves never had been to the east!) that 'this area is so dangerous for lone women'. Absolute crap. If you act normal, use common sense it's a very safe country. I felt more safe in small very traditional eastern places than I do in Amsterdam, London or Paris.

72.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 06:49 pm

Quote:


But do not forget, 90% of those men/boys still think that there are two types of women/girls on earth: the ones they can marry, and the ones they can have fun.





This part made me laugh, but my mother is from Italy, so I think the culture is similar to Turkish culture in some ways......I was told that I must be a nice girl, a girl that a man wants to marry. Right or Wrong, who is to say? Of course I have made some foolish decisions in my life, but now that I am a little older, I feel like there may be a thread of wisdom in it.

73.       azade
1606 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 07:15 pm

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting portokal:

that Turkey can be far more safer for a woman than some western countries.



Very true. I travelled solo twice for six weeks throughout all Turkey, including the east. Many times I was warned (mostly by Turkish men who themselves never had been to the east!) that 'this area is so dangerous for lone women'. Absolute crap. If you act normal, use common sense it's a very safe country. I felt more safe in small very traditional eastern places than I do in Amsterdam, London or Paris.



Hear hear!
I feel a lot safer in the east than west, without a doubt.
______________

In my experience there are two kind of foreign girls vacationing and finding "love" in Turkey: 1) Those who are first timers. They don't know that they have to "beware" of tourist workers looking for the next catch and they usually (usually, not always) end up getting hurt. 2) Those who are seeking it out and playing the game exactly the way that some tourist workers are. I've seen some funny partner swapping as well.
Oh and then there are those couples where both parts are genuine and serious but that's rare.

(Haven't we talked about this like a thousand times before? The girl initially discussed is, of course, in a really bad situation but I doubt she ever wanted to cause a fuss, she just wanted help because she didn't see any other way out. I hope everything works out for you, and this is meant in the nicest way possible, honestly, I hope you have learnt a lesson. And don't let it scar you, you'll get back on top )

74.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 07:49 pm

well said, Azade!

75.       Serdar07
428 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 08:29 pm

I am very happy with the last comments and that was my purpose for starting this thread...
But for those still thinking Turkey is just an advenutre for (love... which is really means sex), please do bring your rescue team with yourself and don't cry if some accidents happened, because who wants to climbe Everst in Himalaya should be careful about the consequences!!!
Good Luck for all even the adventurers!

76.       alameda
3499 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 08:41 pm

Excellent post....and excellent advice to follow.

Quoting portokal:

This forum was so far about being unexperienced, rushing into a love affair, charming, lies, popular culture, popular turism and sometimes sex tourism.
Either we agree or disagree on these, all these experiences are avoidable. By acting, behaving in a manner to avoid these.


Before my travel i gathered some infos, like this quotation below, taken from the Turkey Travel Planner, by Tom Broshnahan, author of the first editions of Lonely Planet Turkey.
(I must admit i have still many things to discover about turkish culture...
no offence please if this quotation has some discussable points. Personally i am looking forward on some interesting forum topics.)

__________________________________________________________
Women/Female Travellers in Turkey

What's it like to be a woman traveling in Turkey?

Most female visitors find Turks—both men and women—extremely welcoming, accommodating and helpful, and enjoy their trips immensely.

Am I crazy to think of traveling alone as a woman in Turkey?

Not at all, so long as you conform to local customs and attitudes (as in any country you visit) and take normal, common-sense precautions.

Will I get hassled because I'm a female?

Some women report being hassled—a little or a lot—in Turkey. Others report no problems at all. You can lessen the likelihood of bothersome hassle by dressing and behaving according to local norms. (Read on...)

Will I be in danger?

Violent crime, including assault and rape, is less common in Turkey than in many developed Western countries. No one can predict the future or what will happen to any individual traveler, but many people say they feel safer in Turkey than at home. Take common-sense precautions and observe local norms and you should feel safe in Turkey.

What sort of hassles might foreign women encounter?

Reported hassles include staring, minor groping and pinching, unpleasant sounds and comments, and unwanted romantic advances.

Are Turkish women hassled also?

Sometimes, but they have ways of avoiding most unpleasantness.

Do most men treat women this way?

Absolutely not! Most Turkish men are extremely polite, even courtly, toward women, Turkish or foreign, and will treat you with heartfelt respect and courtesy. You're likely to find most Turkish men more polite and solicitous of your welfare and happiness than many 'Western' men. You may even find that you miss this courtesy after you leave Turkey.

Here's what 'Cruise Diva' Linda Coffman says:

'IMO, there is no better city than Istanbul to either begin or end a cruise.

'I've been to Turkey three times and must add that there's nothing like a Turkish merchant to make an American woman feel welcome and desirable. Of course, it's probably got a lot to do with her American Express card.

'Seriously, I was in Istanbul last summer and felt perfectly safe wandering around shopping on Rumeli Street with a female colleague. We got lost a couple times and Turks on the street very helpfully pointed us in the right direction to find our hotel.'

What can I do to avoid occasional unpleasantness?

As in other Mediterranean countries with similar cultures, you should observe local customs. Do things with others (a female or male companion you know, or a mixed group) when possible. If you're traveling alone, introduce yourself to Turkish women or families, ask a question or strike up a conversation so that you are informally included with them.

In Turkey, as in many other countries, social encounters between men and women who are not relatives or close friends are conducted much more formally than they might be in Europe or--especially--Australia, Canada, or the USA. Also, this formality is maintained for a much longer time.

How can I be 'more formal'?

Dress neatly and act reserved. Be pleasant, but don't smile readily at men you don't know, even when conducting business (registering at a hotel, taking a taxi ride, etc). Be correct and formal, even on the third and fourth encounter. If a man responds by being overly friendly, you should be overly formal. Keep control of the situation, keep it on your terms.

What else can I do?

Set the rules for each encounter. Do things in public, or in group settings in which you know most of the people. Avoid being alone in private with a man or men you do not know well—especially in a car. (Mixed groups, including both Turkish men and Turkish women, are usually fine.)

Why can't I just be the way I normally am? Why do I have to do things differently?

Unfortunately, European and American movies, TV programs, magazines, books—and especially fantasy pornography—often portray 'Western' women as 'loose,' if not downright promiscuous: they go out to clubs and bars on their own, they talk to men to whom they have not been introduced, they even sleep with men they've known for only a short time and have no intention of marrying.

It's true of some Western women, so a Turkish man may assume that it's true of any particular woman—you, for example. Like any Western man, if he's attracted to you he may give it a try and see what happens.

Many Western women smile readily, at anyone. It's looked upon as good manners to smile and be cheerful. Turkish women, who act more formal, don't usually smile at an unfamiliar man until they feel assured that the smile won't be misinterpreted as a come-on. Thus, when a Turkish woman smiles at a man, it means she is willing to be more friendly. It's a calculated escalation of interest, not just part of a cheerful attitude.

So if you smile at a Turkish man just to be pleasant, he might interpret it to mean that you're interested in being even more friendly.

The problem, then, is that the cultural signals passed between men and women, and the expectations, might be quite different, and not what is intended. Neither person is wrong or right, just different. You need to be on the same wavelength for your signals to be taken as you mean them.

If you're not interested, you may give a signal to a Western man ('Get lost!') and he's supposed to wander away. To a Mediterranean male, 'Get lost!' might be taken merely as a pro-forma protest meant to protect your honor, to show that you didn't yield to his charms too easily. You're expected to protest, whether you're interested in him or not. When you say 'Get lost!' to him, it might have the effect of making you seem even more attractive; he might take it as a signal to increase the hit on you.

A half-century ago in Europe, the USA and other highly-developed countries, these same norms and customs were in effect. Well, they still are in Turkey and in many other more traditional societies. Observe them, and your chances of being hassled decrease dramatically.

(by the way, the webpage address is: http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/details/WomenTravelers/index.html)
_________________________________________________________
It is not in my intention to discuss what TB states here, to agree/disagree on what he says about western or turkish cultures, i just want to point out that some of these advices are very reasonable and of good sense.
And useful.
According to this article, and not just, Lonely Planet states this also, that Turkey can be far more safer for a woman than some western countries.

It is much more up to the woman what is happening with her...
And the same goes about hustling, making offers...
A no answer is accepted as such.

Just my humble experience here.

77.       Laila01
0 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 08:58 pm

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting portokal:

that Turkey can be far more safer for a woman than some western countries.



Very true. I travelled solo twice for six weeks throughout all Turkey, including the east. Many times I was warned (mostly by Turkish men who themselves never had been to the east!) that 'this area is so dangerous for lone women'. Absolute crap. If you act normal, use common sense it's a very safe country. I felt more safe in small very traditional eastern places than I do in Amsterdam, London or Paris.



I have to agree with Trudy there. Some places in London I wouldn't dream of being in the early hours of the morning. But in Turkey? Ah if I can't sleep at night I can just walk down the road, maybe to the beach and even watch the sun rise.

78.       turquoise
938 posts
 18 Sep 2007 Tue 09:48 pm

Quoting alameda:

Ah Turquoise....if it were so easy to pick who you love! History and literature is full of mismatched tragic lovers. If we could be so rational in who and how we love, what kind of love would it be?

Quoting turquoise:

this really sad, im not happy to tell you that but ............



i wish all people were rational,actually thats the way you can find the true love and someone that you can feel and really love her/him as real friend,as your brother or sister,as your father or mother,as your baby, as a part of you and as the most important thing in your life, not just as a sweetheart.....because, being blinded by loving causes you not to see the other side of sharing the life and causes you to loose yourself in the way that opens into the life and the happiness.so you should always be logical...

79.       alameda
3499 posts
 19 Sep 2007 Wed 05:49 am

Logic and love, surely you jest! Then, of course, there are many types of love. The love we talk about here is romantic love, and that rarely deals with logic.

More than likely the boy didn't believe the "Western girl" was a virgin. He treated her like she was an adventure. She believed his sweet words....it's tragic. Most tragic is that there may be a child born who will not know his father. Then someday that boy may be an old man, wondering where his child is....but it will be too late then....I've seen that. I knew a woman who was in a similar situation. Man fled, 14 years later he wanted to see his son, who wouldn't have anything to do with him.....and that is just one story I could tell out of many I've witnessed.

Quoting turquoise:



i wish all people were rational,actually thats the way you can find the true love and someone that you can feel and really love her/him as real friend,as your brother or sister,as your father or mother,as your baby, as a part of you and as the most important thing in your life, not just as a sweetheart.....because, being blinded by loving causes you not to see the other side of sharing the life and causes you to loose yourself in the way that opens into the life and the happiness.so you should always be logical...



80.       catwoman
8933 posts
 19 Sep 2007 Wed 06:19 am

Quoting turquoise:

i wish all people were rational,actually thats the way you can find the true love and someone that you can feel and really love her/him as real friend,as your brother or sister,as your father or mother,as your baby, as a part of you and as the most important thing in your life, not just as a sweetheart.....because, being blinded by loving causes you not to see the other side of sharing the life and causes you to loose yourself in the way that opens into the life and the happiness.so you should always be logical...


So well said! This is not to deny the moment's charm, but reason should guide your behavior.

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