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ANDIMIZ! (Student Vow)
(179 Messages in 18 pages - View all)
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1.       janissary
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:33 pm

This vow (Andımız) is read by all primary school students in every morning before lesson:


ANDIMIZ
"Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,

İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.

Ey Büyük Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.

Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"


here is a video of students

My Webpage

2.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:40 pm

Here is my attempt of translating it so that other members can understand it too:


Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,
I am Turk, I am honest, I am hard working

İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.
My principle is to protect the small, to respect the big, to love my country and my people more than I love myself

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.
My ideal is to (improve), to move forward/to progress

Ey Büyük Atatürk!
Hey Great Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.
I promise solemnly to walk on the road you have opened, to the goal you have showed, without stopping

Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.
May my existence be a gift to the Turkish existence

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"
How happy for the one who says 'I am a Turk'!



Please correct me where I am wrong.

3.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:41 pm

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!

4.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:45 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!



I agree. Or at least it should be modified and presented less frequent. What's wrong with just saying it at the start of a new schoolyear. Or each semester if you really can't help it.

5.       MrX67
2540 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:46 pm

no harm on mindfull nationalism unless turn on racism,and a strong world citizenship's road pass on peacfull nationalism..

6.       armegon
1872 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:48 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:


Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.
My country, to rise (improve), to move forward/to progress



This one should be "My ideal is to ..."

7.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:49 pm

Quoting MrX67:

no harm on mindfull nationalism unless turn on racism,and a strong world citizenship's road pass on peacfull nationalism..



I personally just think that nationalism shouldn't be fed in schools

8.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:49 pm

Quoting armegon:

This one should be "My ideal is to ..."




Thank you Modified it.

9.       MrX67
2540 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:51 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting MrX67:

no harm on mindfull nationalism unless turn on racism,and a strong world citizenship's road pass on peacfull nationalism..



I personally just think that nationalism shouldn't be fed in schools

how can a child can hug all globe without hugging himselfs/herselfs????

10.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:53 pm

Quoting MrX67:

how can a child can hug all globe without hugging himselfs/herselfs????




It's easier to hug the entire globe when you are not nationalistic


And there is no need for nationalism to be able to love and appreciate oneself.

11.       MrX67
2540 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:00 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting MrX67:

how can a child can hug all globe without hugging himselfs/herselfs????




It's easier to hug the entire globe when you are not nationalistic


And there is no need for nationalism to be able to love and appreciate oneself.

love look likes enlarging waves,and i think impossible to catch the biggest one without smallest one,unless this love weaves doesn't turn any fanactism...And i think noone of us can't deny goodness of an innocent patriotism??

12.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:00 am

Quoting MrX67:

love look likes enlarging waves,and i think impossible to catch the biggest one without smallest one,unless this love weaves doesn't turn any fanactism...



I don't see what this has to do with nationalism though

13.       MrX67
2540 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:03 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting MrX67:

love look likes enlarging waves,and i think impossible to catch the biggest one without smallest one,unless this love weaves doesn't turn any fanactism...



I don't see what this has to do with nationalism though

i bet ur a good patriot to,just you don't like to say that clearly?

14.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:05 am

Quoting MrX67:

i bet ur a good patriot



In the dictionary of my life, there is no such thing as patriottism or nationalism

There is a difference between on one side feeling lucky for where you were born (the Netherlands now), and feeling happy about the values and morals that life here has presented to me, and on the other side feel happy to be here just because it is Dutch.

15.       MrX67
2540 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:08 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting MrX67:

i bet ur a good patriot



In the dictionary of my life, there is no such thing as patriottism or nationalism

There is a difference between on one side feeling lucky for where you were born (the Netherlands now), and feeling happy about the values and morals that life here has presented to me, and on the other side feel happy to be here just because it is Dutch.

you trying to show ur ear brom back of ur head,its really hard,try to easier way

16.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:11 am

I don't understand what you mean


It is just my opinion that nationalism shouldn't be fed in schools at daily basis, that there is no need for nationalism to learn to accept other people on the globe. And it is my choice of life not to be nationalistic or pattriotistic There is no discussion about that anyway

17.       MrX67
2540 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:13 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

I don't understand what you mean


It is just my opinion that nationalism shouldn't be fed in schools at daily basis, that there is no need for nationalism to learn to accept other people on the globe. And it is my choice of life not to be nationalistic or pattriotistic There is no discussion about that anyway

congrats to ur huge globe love then

18.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:19 am




19.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:28 am

There are two big waves in the world today; one is the rise of nationalism which began one and a half centuries ago and it is still going strong, and the other one is the rise of individualism.

There are two types of economic models in the world today; one is based on natural resources and the other is on industry. Industrialized countries used nationalism to split countries into more managable chunks. They neeeded individualism to augment consumption. Individualism destroyed the patriarchal family model and gave way to the formation of new homes with extensive needs in all departments. Nationalism killed peace and harmony and it provided the final curtain for old society.

Once there was prose, poetry, music, social activities, now these are all replaced by an arguably more efficient society of lonesome souls seeking happiness everywhere.

Today, happiness is the most sought after asset.

20.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 06:54 am

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!


lol lol lol

21.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 06:54 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

I agree. Or at least it should be modified and presented less frequent. What's wrong with just saying it at the start of a new schoolyear. Or each semester if you really can't help it.


OMG, lmao lol lol lol

22.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 06:56 am

I think it should be explained here for some people that Turkish students say this every day in school in the mornings.

23.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 06:57 am

Quoting vineyards:

Today, happiness is the most sought after asset.


It has always been the most sought after asset, but only for a select group of people, most others couldn't even dream about it. They had to perform their duty, had no other chance.

24.       azizehannah
220 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:06 am

its normal. hahahaha.
we also have it. i`m in 2nd year high school now
and we still say it.
we say it with our right hands raised.
hahahahaha.

25.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:49 am

Quoting catwoman:

I think it should be explained here for some people that Turkish students say this every day in school in the mornings.


I assumed all countries had something similar. In the US, school children recite the “Pledge of Allegiance”…..

'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

The pledge was banned in several western states (under the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court that made the ruling) a few years back due to a lawsuit brought on by an atheist who argued that the line “under God” violated the separation of Church and State. He stated that the pledge violated his daughter’s rights because even though it is not mandatory to participate, his child had to listen to it being recited.
The suit went all the way to the US Supreme Court and was dismissed when the court ruled that the father did not have legal standing to sue on his child’s behalf because of a custody agreement with the child’s mother.



26.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:53 am

Quoting girleegirl:

I assumed all countries had something similar. In the US, school children recite the “Pledge of Allegiance”…..


Do they recite this every day? And is it just this one sentence?

27.       janissary
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:35 am

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!



I JUST SAY "YUH!". I didnt know u are against all of our national emotions. This site became really annoying. ı dont understand you, why u are looking for racism under this. is it racism to promise for working and studying for this country. if we abolish this vow, we will lose many things. THERE ARE MANY bad EXAMPLES OF THİS İN THE WORLD. Maybe we must do more than this vow coz we havent done anything when we compare with our ancestors. that s why we promised to work like they did. Im happy that most of turkish ppl dont think as u think. I condemn everybody who attack the values of a country.

NE MUTLU TÃœRKÃœM DİYENE.

28.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:51 am

I see nothing wrong about a vow like this at school, it is a matter of tradition so I don't think this is what makes nationalists. Some countries don't have vows like this and still there are nationalists.

I believe patriotism is a good thing - a vow doesn't teach it for sure, but gives a sense of belonging. I disagree with any kind of religious lines to be repeated, but if it's just a pledge to your country then what's wrong with it?

29.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:52 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

I see nothing wrong about a vow like this at school, it is a matter of tradition so I don't think this is what makes nationalists. Some countries don't have vows like this and still there are nationalists.

I believe patriotism is a good thing - a vow doesn't teach it for sure, but gives a sense of belonging. I disagree with any kind of religious lines to be repeated, but if it's just a pledge to your country then what's wrong with it?


I agree,I also see nothing wrong with this kind of pledge expressing love and devotion to your homeland.A person without a sense of belonging,national identity is like a tree without roots.
Many countries survived the storms of history only because there were people who did not neglect and abandon their roots.Patriotism is not fashionable,probably nowadays but is something wrong with expressing love to your country and will for its improvement?
Is that nationalism?I do not think so.

30.       libralady
5152 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:18 pm

Quoting janissary:

This vow (Andımız) is read by all primary school students in every morning before lesson:


ANDIMIZ
"Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,

İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.

Ey Büyük Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.

Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"


here is a video of students

My Webpage



I personally think it is narrow minded to start a thread like this and then not expect some negative response, then claim that the site is anti-Turkish values. but looking at most of the answers, people (non-Turks) are agreeing with you and see nothing wrong with it.

My view is that this sort of thing belongs with the Arc; why expose young children to this? It has reverberations of nationalism and nationalism breeds racism, hatred and violence. This sort of attitude is not good for tourism, a thriving, growing industry.

31.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 12:23 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

I see nothing wrong about a vow like this at school, it is a matter of tradition so I don't think this is what makes nationalists. Some countries don't have vows like this and still there are nationalists.

I believe patriotism is a good thing - a vow doesn't teach it for sure, but gives a sense of belonging. I disagree with any kind of religious lines to be repeated, but if it's just a pledge to your country then what's wrong with it?



I like such traditions, as I never had them in my school, and I sometimes miss the feeling of really belonging to my country. I just think it is a bit over the top to recite this every day. In my opinion it needs small modification, but apart from that it's a nice tradition.

Maybe in my mind it is just an add-up: a Turkish vow and religious education in Turkish schools. You say you disagree with religious lines to be repeated, and I agree with you. However, Turkish educational system has compulsory religion lessons, based on Suni Islam. As a Christian, you can write a letter to principal and you will be taken off the class. But if your parents are muslim and YOU are Christian, it might become difficult. The worst problem is when you are Alevi: you cannot be excluded from religion class, eventhough they won't teach your children the practises you have faith in. The only way to get out of class is to write a letter, stating you are not a Muslim. But.. in your opinion, you ARE.Just a different group.

Maybe that is why I don't like it, the stress on the history, Turkishness and religion in schools.

But the tradition in itself, is something I agree, that should stay.

32.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:02 pm

This pledge has been said by the 7 years olds 10s of years in Turkey.
After all those years, the generations who grew up with 'andimiz' (and of course with 'ne mutlu turkum diyene' as well) just managed to create the quality of living standards 'just above' African countries.!!!
So basically they are empty and they are not working.
(personally, instead of brain washing with people with empty slogans, it is better if we taught people why holland generates 7 times more money from their agricultural product than turkey or why and how they make nearly 10 billion dollars each year from the export of tulips with 15 million people where as we just managed the same amount from tourism several years ago with 80 million people!! )

Anyways, about andimiz.

I doubt the validity of it and also I doubt the relevance of it as well as I find it quite disrespectful to my country's citizens.
It is against everything about multiculturalism.
There are not Turks only in Turkey.
There are people they dont want to call themselves turk and they are the people of Turkey.
They are turkish.
They dont call themselves Turk.
And everybody should respect this.

ps..I think recently the minister of education said something about it too.
I think he argued that "putting foreign children (like germans, english etc) into line of assembly every morning and force them to say 'I am a Turk' as a first line would be forcing them to lie".
It is, to be honest,a confession that we have been forcing our own people to lie for a long time
And nobody should say that "'I am Turk' in that context does not not mean turk as ethnic race"..please. we should not lie to ourselves

33.       libralady
5152 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:08 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

This pledge has been said by the 7 years olds 10s of years in Turkey.
After all those years, the generations who grew up with 'andimiz' (and of course with 'ne mutlu turkum diyene' as well) just managed to create the quality of living standards 'just above' African countries.!!!
So basically they are empty and they are not working.
(personally, instead of brain washing with people with empty slogans, it is better if we taught people why holland generates 7 times more money from their agricultural product than turkey or why and how they make nearly 10 billion dollars each year from the export of tulips with 15 million people where as we just managed the same amount from tourism several years ago with 80 million people!! )

Anyways, about andimiz.

I doubt the validity of it and also I doubt the relevance of it as well as I find it quite disrespectful to my country's citizens.
It is against everything about multiculturalism.
There are not Turks only in Turkey.
There are people they dont want to call themselves turk and they are the people of Turkey.
They are turkish.
They dont call themselves Turk.
And everybody should respect this.

ps..I think recently the minister of education said something about it too.
I think he argued that "putting foreign children (like germans, english etc) into line of assembly every morning and force them to say 'I am a Turk' as a first line would be forcing them to lie".
It is, to be honest,a confession that we have been forcing our own people to lie for a long time
And nobody should say that "'I am Turk' in that context does not not mean turk as ethnic race"..please. we should not lie to ourselves



Especially when tulips come from Turkey originally! (or was that your point? )

34.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:14 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!



I agree. Or at least it should be modified and presented less frequent. What's wrong with just saying it at the start of a new schoolyear. Or each semester if you really can't help it.



any words in this vow are lie...so modification is not necessary..

35.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:15 pm

Quoting Lapinkulta:

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!


go to an cliff and jump down...


yes it should be abolished..
And anybody who thinks that it is very important, should be sent to ergenekon..lol

36.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:17 pm

I am proud of my ancestors and I don't mind if they were as poor as African people or as rich as the Swedish. Thanks to the lives of hundreds of thousands of hungry, battered troops that defended their motherland at Dardanelles could we survive as a nation fighting against the English, the French, the Italians, the Greeks and the Indians all at once and at a time when there was no money in the government's coffers. The leader of these people produced a new republic from the ashes of the past. This new republic achieved an unprecedented transformation process which saw the collapse of old institutions, a destruction of the superstitions and quantum leaps in all spheres of life. We needed to be oriented towards a target and we needed to be polarized politically to make that possible. This is a known process.

We know all the heroes of other nations including imaginary ones like Superman or the 50's heroes like Montgomery and Patton, let us not forget Stallone and his
American propoganda series. Those are so comical, in Turkey only comedy versions of them are shot.

Our nationalists are fewer, calmer and essentialy more moderate than the US nationalists I have come accross on the net. For every one hundred ultranationalists with a racial discourse we have just one or two.

37.       janissary
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:18 pm

European ppl and even some tukish ppl who live in europe see turkish ppl ignorant. they look us from top. that s why they always give advices. they just talk and talk nothing else. We wont educate our children as u want. coz we see turkish children who educated in europe. I know all of you are very small minority, think like that. ur type of persons can say one day, this flag is old, we should find another new one. coz it wont mean anything to them. but it does too much us. being a part of this country is not easy. and we know this, we can give our life without any hesitate when needed.

38.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:42 pm

Quoting janissary:

European ppl and even some tukish ppl who live in europe see turkish ppl ignorant. they look us from top. that s why they always give advices. they just talk and talk nothing else. We wont educate our children as u want. coz we see turkish children who educated in europe. I know all of you are very small minority, think like that. ur type of persons can say one day, this flag is old, we should find another new one. coz it wont mean anything to them. but it does too much us. being a part of this country is not easy. and we know this, we can give our life without any hesitate when needed.

39.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:42 pm

Quoting janissary:

European ppl and even some tukish ppl who live in europe see turkish ppl ignorant. they look us from top. that s why they always give advices.



Actually it is you who used this word for the first time here in the context of Turks I think. The fact that some people don't agree with you doesn't mean they think you're ignorant or that they look down on you.

If you're free to say you are in favour of the pledge, they have the right to be against it.

40.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 02:45 pm

Quoting libralady:

I personally think it is narrow minded to start a thread like this and then not expect some negative response, then claim that the site is anti-Turkish values. but looking at most of the answers, people (non-Turks) are agreeing with you and see nothing wrong with it.

My view is that this sort of thing belongs with the Arc; why expose young children to this? It has reverberations of nationalism and nationalism breeds racism, hatred and violence. This sort of attitude is not good for tourism, a thriving, growing industry.


I completely agree with Libralady! but I also think Daydreamer is always right... which leaves me a bit confused... :-S lol

41.       libralady
5152 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 03:10 pm

Quoting janissary:

European ppl and even some tukish ppl who live in europe see turkish ppl ignorant. they look us from top. that s why they always give advices. they just talk and talk nothing else. We wont educate our children as u want. coz we see turkish children who educated in europe. I know all of you are very small minority, think like that. ur type of persons can say one day, this flag is old, we should find another new one. coz it wont mean anything to them. but it does too much us. being a part of this country is not easy. and we know this, we can give our life without any hesitate when needed.



You are wrong, I for one do not consider Turks to be ignorant, in fact far from it! It is quite offensive to even consider that. The ones I know are intellegent and knowledgeable. You have deliberately started this thread to try and antagonise and you are now taking your point to the edge of reason. And as for your flag - what is that about? Who would expect you to change your flag?

It is one thing to be patriotic, no harm in that; I am patriotic to my country, but you are verging on nationalism with your posts.

As I said, it is narrowminded and naive to start a thread like this and not expect critism.

42.       janissary
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 06:41 pm

I didnt want to start a discussion with this topic. IF TURKISH CLASS IS NOT A POLITICS AND RELIGION WEB SITE, ONE OF THE MOST SUITABLE POST IS THE ONES, GIVING KNOWLEDGES ABOUT TURKEY. Some members post politic things which show their views, but no body criticize it or say something wrong. We forgot that this class is a language class for along time.

This post is all about turkey and tukish culture. it s reality in turkey. it happens at schools every morning. I dont see anything wrong with this Andımız. I really didnt think it will take bad comments. it s just an innocent promise for students. why are u looking for racism under everything? being patriotic is bad ? Yes Im "narrow minded", maybe moderators must delete or close this topic. I wont say I wait respect from members coz I know members well now.

43.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:04 pm

Quoting janissary:

I didnt want to start a discussion with this topic. IF TURKISH CLASS IS NOT A POLITICS AND RELIGION WEB SITE, ONE OF THE MOST SUITABLE POST IS THE ONES, GIVING KNOWLEDGES ABOUT TURKEY. Some members post politic things which show their views, but no body criticize it or say something wrong. We forgot that this class is a language class for along time.

This post is all about turkey and tukish culture. it s reality in turkey. it happens at schools every morning. I dont see anything wrong with this Andımız. I really didnt think it will take bad comments. it s just an innocent promise for students. why are u looking for racism under everything? being patriotic is bad ? Yes Im "narrow minded", maybe moderators must delete or close this topic. I wont say I wait respect from members coz I know members well now.



+1
All strong, modernized countries have a strong national identity. Anyone that can be "anti-Andımız" are capable of being anti-anything that is good in this world.

44.       gernas
58 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:15 pm

i am a teacher,
almost nobody (teachers, students) is happy with repeating this oath every morning...and i feel bad and stupid when i force kids line-up and repeat it every morning...more than 90% of the students just pretend, they playback! which means very few really feel sth. when they cry out (or pretend) the andimiz. though i know it will be hard for some to accept this bare truth!
and yes deli kizin, schools shouldnt be the place where nationalism is fed!
better if removed from practice!

45.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:23 pm

Quoting janissary:

I didnt want to start a discussion with this topic. IF TURKISH CLASS IS NOT A POLITICS AND RELIGION WEB SITE, ONE OF THE MOST SUITABLE POST IS THE ONES, GIVING KNOWLEDGES ABOUT TURKEY. Some members post politic things which show their views, but no body criticize it or say something wrong. We forgot that this class is a language class for along time.

This post is all about turkey and tukish culture. it s reality in turkey. it happens at schools every morning. I dont see anything wrong with this Andımız. I really didnt think it will take bad comments. it s just an innocent promise for students. why are u looking for racism under everything? being patriotic is bad ? Yes Im "narrow minded", maybe moderators must delete or close this topic. I wont say I wait respect from members coz I know members well now.


I already explained this is nothing to do with patriotism.
This is racism and also explained why it is racism above too..
And also explained why it is an insult to the people like kurds, or ermenians etc.
You are saying that it is reality..
well..You can be doing something for years and years..it does not change the fact that it has been ALL WRONG!!!
It is like being against honor killings.
honor killings have been in our culture for so long. But can you stick to it? will you say they are right?
will you say that it is our cultural asset?
NO
Basically racism MUST GO...

46.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:27 pm

Well, I am not Turkish, but I have raised my son to be proud to say the Pledge of Allegiance (US) in school. I would be really sad and hurt if it was decided not to say it in schools anymore. My father was in the US military along with my two brothers. My family sacrificed a lot for our country. I am very proud of that fact and I am glad when Americans are asked to remember that sacrifice. I don't think praising your country is necessarily racism but on the same hand, I don't think critisising your country means you don't love it. I can understand the great pride some of our Turkish members have in their country and I think its nice to see devotion to their heritage.

47.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:30 pm

Quoting KeithL:


+1
All strong, modernized countries have a strong national identity. Anyone that can be "anti-Andımız" are capable of being anti-anything that is good in this world.


-2
You have no idea what you are talking about (as usual)
And your knowledge about turkish politics and turkish culture are very limited.

We know that as a fact, all those intellects in turkey got killed by the people who memorized andimiz by heart and they all thought that they were saving Turkey..

I knew you were not a 'democrat', but with each post you are slipping to more and more right..lol

48.       janissary
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:41 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:


+1
All strong, modernized countries have a strong national identity. Anyone that can be "anti-Andımız" are capable of being anti-anything that is good in this world.


-2
You have no idea what you are talking about (as usual)
We know that as a fact, all those intellects in turkey got killed by the people who memorized andimiz by heart and they all thought that they were saving Turkey..

I knew you were not a 'democrat', but with each post you are slipping to more and more right..lol



how do u know all these. how do u know that intellects killed by the people who memorized andimiz. do u have any proof? and how do u know who memorized it by heart? all of the turkish student know andimiz. so how do u know who memorized it by heart and who not? maybe the ppl who dont memorize it, killed them or have become an treacherous. I dont understand ho can u come to such a coclusion. these thinhgs like andimiz make us a country not apart us from each other. if a turkish citizen killed another turkish citizen, it will mean that he/she dont share common aims and he didnt memorize it by heart.

49.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:43 pm

do you want THE list of all intellects killed by the NATIONALISTS?

50.       janissary
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:46 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

do you want THE list of all intellects killed by the NATIONALISTS?



why dont u give it to police if u have a list in ur hand? why are u just talking? and how do u know they memorize the andimiz by heart?

51.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:47 pm

Quoting KeithL:

+1
All strong, modernized countries have a strong national identity. Anyone that can be "anti-Andımız" are capable of being anti-anything that is good in this world.


I completely disagree with you and I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that anybody who's anti adimis is "capable" of being anti anything good... :-S. This is such a strange thing to say... I don't even know where to start with responding to it. Anybody is capable of anything. When we are being anti-adimiz, we are giving you a clear reason. Instead of responding to that argument, you are simply accusing us in some vague way based on some unknown, unclear logic. You are simply playing on feelings instead of being rational.

Oh, and the statement that all great countries have a strong national identity is simply false.

52.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:51 pm

It's like Elizabeth said about America's Pledge of Allegiance. It is a tribute to those who fought so many wars and gave their lives at a young age so that today's children can be free and live under self-rule.
The people in the US that protest pledge of allegiance are the type of people who will protest anything, just for the sake of protest.

Andımız is the same. It honors Turkey's hero's that kept Turkey out of the hand's of its enemies after the fall of the Osmans.

53.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:54 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!



You have a problem with this handsom?
using Deli_Kizen's translation

Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,
I am Turkish, I am honest, I am hard working

İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.
My principle is to protect the small, to respect the big, to love my country and my people very much from my heart

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.
My ideal is to (improve), to move forward/to progress

Ey Büyük Atatürk!
Hey Great Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.
I promise solemnly to walk on the road you have opened, to the goal you have showed, without stopping

Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.
May my existence be a gift to the Turkish existence

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"
How happy for the one who says 'I am a Turk'

Like it or not, the world is comprised of many different nations, not one. In order to maintain themselves, each nation has to protect their national identity and integrity.

54.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:54 pm

Quoting catwoman:


Oh, and the statement that all great countries have a strong national identity is simply false.



Name one or two for me. I can name many with strong sense of nationalism that are truly independent.
USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China

Of course I have left out some, but these are the obvious that come to mind in just seconds.

55.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:03 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Name one or two for me. I can name many with strong sense of nationalism that are truly independent.
USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China

Of course I have left out some, but these are the obvious that come to mind in just seconds.


What makes these countries great is not their nationalism. Also, what made them great was not their nationalism. And in present day, nationalism in these countries is used to manipulate the masses to allow the governments to carry on their hideous policies.

56.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:05 pm

I agree with both Keith and Alameda. Global Village project was a lame one from the very beginning. We are all different countries, cultures, nations. I am astounded at seeing how easily some of us have solved the mystery of foreign cultures.

In today's world, you cannot run even the simplest form of international business unless you understand the internal mechanisms of the society you are doing business in.

I am neither like Roswitha, Catwoman, Deli Kizin, Alameda or anyone else belonging to a different nation. I am what I am and it is your problem if you think I am doing the right thing when I live up to your expectations in terms of thinking and reasoning. All that you are doing is trying to reverse irreversible values deep rooted into cultures. I have an accomplished culture which is not like yours, my music is not even similar to yours, my philosophy can be something to be ridiculed from say a German's point of view but in fact it is my life and soul and I am proud of being a member of this culture because it makes me happy.

The schools in Turkey educate Turkish children. Those children will live in Turkey not in Washington or London. They will hopefully stay and work for their country. We know how weakness is penalized in the international arena of politics where everyone works for their interests. We would like them to love their country at least as much as a US, English or Polish person does. (We don't even want them to love it as much as the French do).

Summarily, we would like to hold on to our cultural heritage by living and dying as Turks.

57.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:12 pm

Vineyards, I certainly respect your feelings and opinions, but I would also like to give my opinion in response to you. I am not trying to change you (or anybody else), I am only responding to what I see. At the same time, I am not only not criticizing you and your culture as a whole, but only certain aspects of it. And my only purpose in doing that is to point out things that might be to your benefit and to the benefit of other people living in your country. Don't you think that people/cultures should take a critical look at themselves every once in a while in order to keep getting better and not to stagnate?

58.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:17 pm

Quote:

Yess I do..
Lets go line by line..(I did not want to this )

Quoting alameda:



You have a problem with this handsom?
using Deli_Kizen's translation

Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,
I am Turkish, I am honest, I am hard working


This should be translated as 'I am a Turk'. This simply implies a race..NOT SAME AS TURKISH.
Why a kurd (or ermenian or whoever else), who does not want to call himself a turk, will have to say this?

Quoting alameda:


İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.
My principle is to protect the small, to respect the big, to love my country and my people very much from my heart


last bit should be translated as 'my principle is to love my country and my people more than myself'.
There is promotion of self-sacrificing here..Not suitable for 7 years olds for me..

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.
My ideal is to (improve), to move forward/to progress

Quoting alameda:


Ey Büyük Atatürk!
Hey Great Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.

I promise solemnly to walk on the road you have opened, to the goal you have showed, without stopping


I am sorry but Ataturk as a person is different and his ideas are different.
his ideas were political ideas. They will be criticized with the time and they will be changed with the time. And the goals will change with the time.
Many of his ideas have already been changed with the time.

Quote:


Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.
May my existence be a gift to the Turkish existence

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"
How happy for the one who says 'I am a Turk'


Again the same principle as above..promotion of self sacrificing. I dont think it is suitable for 7 years olds.
And I know the fact that 'ne mutlu turkum diyene' has been screamed into some people's face in Turkey.
And it makes some people unhappy..
and it is being used by the nationalists and nationalism breeds its antis, forcing some other people to be nationalist.
That is why kurdish nationalism is soaring for example.

And I find turkish nationalism quite dangerous and forceful.

My fear is that it it is not stopped now we will come to a point that our kurds will not want to live with us.

59.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:19 pm

Quoting KeithL:

It's like Elizabeth said about America's Pledge of Allegiance. It is a tribute to those who fought so many wars and gave their lives at a young age so that today's children can be free and live under self-rule.


Yes, honoring the good people from the past is a great thing. The difference between Elisabeth and some nationalistic Turks here is that she doesn't make it into an obsession that blinds her to the wrong-doings of her country. And it's really about the effect that it produces that makes it good or bad.

Quoting KeithL:

The people in the US that protest pledge of allegiance are the type of people who will protest anything, just for the sake of protest.


This is the kind of statement that really would be impossible to believe. I would rather listen to their argument and decide based on that if they protest just for the sake of protesting.

Quoting KeithL:

Andımız is the same. It honors Turkey's hero's that kept Turkey out of the hand's of its enemies after the fall of the Osmans.


It is definitely a great thing to remember the people who paved a way for us. But a brainless repetition that turns people into individuals that are unable to continue the good work of their foremothers and fathers is hardly a good thing for the people and the country. It is just a political tool.

60.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:24 pm

Catwoman, we Turks criticize ourselves more than you know. We have been doing this for at least a couple of centuries.
Sadly, nothing gets better by criticizing when critics contain destructive elements.

For example, when someone implies that our oath is wrong because it contains racist, nationalistic elements then I am entitled to asking this question: why am I supposed to understand that oath the way you do? Why should I not use the word Turk whereas it means nothing more than a citizen of Turkey.

Ethnically, you can be a Kurd, Armenian or whatever but if you are a citizen of this country you are a Turk. You can call yourself an Armenian Turk but it is different from being an Armenian citizen living in Armenia. You need to serve this country. If you don't want to serve this country international laws permit immigration rights. If you feel loyal to Armenia, you are free to go and live there.

For my own part, I never thought about immigrating to the US or the UK because I never felt like serving American or British people or their intererests. I have always wanted to preserve my culture and values, and let me tell you I am very, very, very and very comfortable with a great majority of those values.

61.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:28 pm

About the list above about nationalism:
I have been living in the uk and the nationalism I have seen here is nothing to do with the nationalism in turkey.
And nationalism is dying in developed countries because 'being a citizen is more important' than being a nationalist.

62.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:41 pm

Thanks for the corrections, thehandsom. I will update my translation.

63.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:43 pm

Congratulations on you observations. These are your own observations. I always happily defended that we Turks don't have racist elements in our culture after hearing so many UK and Swedish people talk about skin colors, religious beliefs so frequently.

64.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:46 pm

I think an oath is nice, especially if it is one that remembers the one who made life of today possible for us yesterday. But what Gernas said, is what I heard of most teachers I have spoken to in Turkey, the majority of teachers and pupils does not feel anything when saying this. If I were to decide (which obviously Im not, but hey, this is all hypothetical anyway), I would start the schoolyear with this oath, maybe end it, and use it for special occasions like graduations.

I have to agree with thehandsom, it is not suitable for young children.

65.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:55 pm

It's pointless to try and debate which country is more racistic. I believe the UK to be a rather racistic place, and the Netherlands, which wasn't really racist let's say some 5 years ago, is going through a very bad development where people have discriminating thoughts about Islam and about foreigners in general. I would never say that there is no racism in the UK or in the Netherlands (I just talk about my two motherlands, I dont know really about the rest of Europe), but it is a fable to believe that the strong nationalism in Turkey, is not very close to racism. That doesn't mean that all who love the oath, are racists. But it means that racists generally love the oath.

66.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:58 pm

Quoting vineyards:

Congratulations on you observations. These are your own observations. I always happily defended that we Turks don't have racist elements in our culture after hearing so many UK and Swedish people talk about skin colors, religious beliefs so frequently.


I do hope that Turks are not racist, but I think a little bit of racism is in all of us and hearing Turkish people say that they are not racist is kind of similar to hearing Polish people say that they are not racist, even though there are practically no people of color in their countries.

67.       azade
1606 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:00 pm

+10000000 thehandsom right on spot.

It's horrendous to see "ne mutlu türküm diyene" written on every beautiful mountain in areas populated by kurds. I don't understand how people can be so brainwashed they refuse to acknowledge the truth behind turkish assimilation politics.

68.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:01 pm

Quoting catwoman:

even though there are practically no people of color in their countries.



Oh you reminded me something! Haha. We have many afro-americans and africans in the Netherlands. So Im used to live among all different skin colors, because theres Chinese,Turkish etc. too, next to pale white like me But once in Turkey we were having breakfast in my favourite place, and suddenly a black man came to help us. I have to be honest that it was really strange to see!

69.       Saskia1970
70 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:04 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

It's pointless to try and debate which country is more racistic. I believe the UK to be a rather racistic place, and the Netherlands, which wasn't really racist let's say some 5 years ago, is going through a very bad development where people have discriminating thoughts about Islam and about foreigners in general. I would never say that there is no racism in the UK or in the Netherlands (I just talk about my two motherlands, I dont know really about the rest of Europe), but it is a fable to believe that the strong nationalism in Turkey, is not very close to racism. That doesn't mean that all who love the oath, are racists. But it means that racists generally love the oath.



Are you attacking the feelings of British and Dutch people now? Should they feel insulted?

70.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:07 pm

Quoting Saskia1970:

Are you attacking the feelings of British and Dutch people now? Should they feel insulted?



Are you serious?

I am Dutch and British

71.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:10 pm

Oh about my post: I never meant to say that the ENTİRE British and Dutch population is a racist. I just meant that it is ridiculous to debate where and whether there is racism somewhere or not, because it's everywhere unfortunately.

72.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:22 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting KeithL:

Name one or two for me. I can name many with strong sense of nationalism that are truly independent.
USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China

Of course I have left out some, but these are the obvious that come to mind in just seconds.


What makes these countries great is not their nationalism. Also, what made them great was not their nationalism. And in present day, nationalism in these countries is used to manipulate the masses to allow the governments to carry on their hideous policies.



I did not say nationalism made them great. They are great countries. AND...they are nationalists.

73.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:32 pm

I also will make the comparison that the people in Turkey that protest Andımız, are the same people in America who protest Pledge of Allegiance in school, Christmas Trees and Nativity Scenes.
These people with their communist ideology really bore me...

74.       azade
1606 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:35 pm

What has it got to do with communism?? Individualism and personal freedom would be better choices.

75.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:46 pm

Quoting azade:

What has it got to do with communism?? Individualism and personal freedom would be better choices.


I am really begining to think that we have a mod with fachist ideas.. Because most fascists had this paranoia of 'communism creeping from the opposition'. They somehow think that every critisisim of state are done by communists only..
Well done admins!!

76.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:47 pm

The government cannot transport individualism or personal freedom on trucks. These concepts develop themselves without the direct influence of the government.

Personal freedom or individualism will be just void concepts in a region that do more to maim a country than to contribute to its progress. DTP hails Ocalan as the leader of the Kurds so do the masses in a couple of Eastern province. The party keeps receiving votes of the Kurdish citizens. If Ocalan is their leader, they are not serving this country at all. It is natural that Kurds are disturbed at seeing the symbols of this country. They prefer their own tri-color flag, they have their own leader. All that has to be done is waiting until the day comes.

77.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:49 pm

Quoting azade:

What has it got to do with communism?? Individualism and personal freedom would be better choices.



We have rules in society. And procedures. And traditions. If you don't care to follow them, this is your choice. But insulting others for honoring tradition and rules is subversive.

78.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:51 pm

Quoting thehandsom:


I am really begining to think that we have a mod with fachist ideas.. Because most fascists had this paranoia of 'communism creeping from the opposition'. They somehow think that every critisisim of state are done by communists only..
Well done admins!!



I'm German....it comes honestly enough

79.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:51 pm

Quoting azade:

+10000000 thehandsom right on spot.

It's horrendous to see "ne mutlu türküm diyene" written on every beautiful mountain in areas populated by kurds. I don't understand how people can be so brainwashed they refuse to acknowledge the truth behind turkish assimilation politics.


Thanks azade..
There are many in Turkey that turkish nationalism is going to cause the split of the country.
Basically with the turkish expression, nationalism in Turkey is 'bolucu' nationalism..
nationalists have no idea that they are helping to divide this country.

80.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:53 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

I am really begining to think that we have a mod with fachist ideas.. Because most fascists had this paranoia of 'communism creeping from the opposition'. They somehow think that every critisisim of state are done by communists only..
Well done admins!!



I believe in complete free speech. So if I am a fascist, I am a bad one...

81.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 09:57 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting thehandsom:


I am really begining to think that we have a mod with fachist ideas.. Because most fascists had this paranoia of 'communism creeping from the opposition'. They somehow think that every critisisim of state are done by communists only..
Well done admins!!



I'm German....it comes honestly enough


I dont believe genes carry fachism..
fachism comes with ideas like the desires of othoritarian state, powerful army, people sacrificing themselves etc..

82.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 10:01 pm

Quoting thehandsom:


I dont believe genes carry fachism..
fachism comes with ideas like the desires of othoritarian state, powerful army, people sacrificing themselves etc..



And where would Istanbul and the Turks be today without a powerful army and without people willing to sacrafice?
If you would have been at Gelibolu, would you have run???
Are you turkish at all??

83.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 10:11 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting thehandsom:


I dont believe genes carry fachism..
fachism comes with ideas like the desires of othoritarian state, powerful army, people sacrificing themselves etc..



And where would Istanbul and the Turks be today without a powerful army and without people willing to sacrafice?
If you would have been at Gelibolu, would you have run???
Are you turkish at all??


I would not run from gelibolu at all. My relatives died there and in the other wars (balkan wars) during that time..
And I am Turkish really and a real one..
And not a fascist one.
You simply dont get it..you simply dont know turkish politics.
You simply dont know turkey's recent history.
You simply have no idea how much we have been pushed back by the army's interventions.
And after all, despite the fact that what you dont know, you are simply playing very cheap arguments to a turk about turkish politics.. hahahaha

addition:
here is the Defining Characteristics Of Fascism:

http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm

84.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:26 pm

NE MUTLU TURKUM DIYENE...we turks dont care about uturkish youth will grow up with their heros...and every turkish children will be next heros if u like or not...gerisi yalan

85.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:31 pm

Quoting Lapinkulta:

we turks dont care about u



İşte o bir yalan If you really didnt care, then you wouldnt bother to reply at all And please speak for yourself, not all Turks think that way.

86.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:33 pm

Quoting KeithL:

We have rules in society. And procedures. And traditions. If you don't care to follow them, this is your choice. But insulting others for honoring tradition and rules is subversive.



Quoting KeithL:

I believe in complete free speech. So if I am a fascist, I am a bad one...



Keith, how do these two posts go together? You said that you believe in complete free speech, even if it makes you a fascist, but you condemn it when people express their disregard for national traditions?

87.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:37 pm

I believe in free speech...as long as it's my speech or as long as everyone agrees with me!!

88.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:39 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting Lapinkulta:

we turks dont care about u



İşte o bir yalan If you really didnt care, then you wouldnt bother to reply at all And please speak for yourself, not all Turks think that way.



you all are here think like that very small minority...coz of u Many Turks are against EU.there is a proverb in Turkey : ''it ürür kervan yürür'' which means ''dogs bark,caravan goes on...'''


kisses u all...)))))))))

89.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:47 pm

Quoting Lapinkulta:

coz of u Many Turks are against EU.



Onlar kemalist değiller o zaman.. Because joining EU would be a crown to all that Atatürk has fought for: westernization!

90.       _Quetzalcoaltl_
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 11:59 pm

I wanna add smth to this subject:

"Türk'e kefen diken karşısında bizi bulur."

This student vow is our traditional features of Turkish educational system and applied in primary schools in order to strenghen the identites of the Turkish posterities. whether u like it or not, u have to show respect this tradition.

the most powerful states in the world are nationalist states. I lived in Paris and Marseille for a long time and observed that French people are very nationalistic, and they reject and ignore the people who are from different countries, and they believe that French nationalism help them to evaluate their identities as well.

Hence, nationalism is a necessity for the states to protect their ID's. Essentially, French Revolution in 1789 was occured in the centre of Europe, so what happened?

the nationalism style of Atatürk is very peaceful, creative, helpful, and innovative. Regardless the ethnic origin, if someone who likes his/her flag, country, culture, he/she's a Turk, that's all... Turks, Kurds, Cerkes, Laz, Armenians, Greeks in Turkey are all sisters and brothers and we live in Turkey peacefully, without any discriminative provocations. However, USA and EU makes agitations to divide the boundaries of Turkey with using ethnic identities in Turkey, and we are aware of these ambushes. (Real Turks must be aware of these kinda ambushes).

Whether u accept or dont accept, you must show your respects to our national identities. Turkey is belonged to Turks, that's all...

look what Atatürk's saying:

"Dünyanın bize hürmet etmesini istiyorsak evvela bu hürmeti, hissen, fiilen, fikren bütün hâl ve hareketlerimizle gösterelim. Bilelim ki milli benliğini bulmayan milletler, başka milletlerin esiridir."

22 March 1924.

any questions?

91.       KeithL
1455 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:08 am

Quoting catwoman:


Keith, how do these two posts go together? You said that you believe in complete free speech, even if it makes you a fascist, but you condemn it when people express their disregard for national traditions?



Believing in free speech does not mean that I have to believe or even respect what others say. the Nazi's march every year in Skokie, IL (a large Jewish Community). They are exercising their free speech. Do I respect their message? No.

So, to my point. The free spirits in America that want to ban Christmas Trees, Nativity scenes and yes....the Pledge of Allegiance, I hear them, but I don't respect them.

My fascist statement was a joke.




(maybe)

92.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:08 am

I just want to add one thing: French nationalism isnt really comparable to the nationalism you find in other West-European countries.. You are right, they are strong nationalistic and dont easily accept other people. Actually, I have been there on holidays many many times, and even if they spoke English, they just refuse to speak anything but French with me lol


And when Atatürk said 'Ne mutlu Türküm diyene', I am sure he meant nationality the way you try to describe: peaceful, with space for all ethnicities united in one Turkey. But it is put a little out of context by many ülkücü Im afraid


As a last: I respect your traditions, but that doesn't mean I agree with them And if you want a country to improve, you have to question your own traditions: what is good about them and what needs change? How can we improve our country, without loosing touch with our inheritage? But I dont think that is disrespectful. I think that is what Atatürk wanted: a people that grows to the future and moves along with the time.

93.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:10 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:

Regardless the ethnic origin, if someone who likes his/her flag, country, culture, he/she's a Turk, that's all... Turks, Kurds, Cerkes, Laz, Armenians, Greeks in Turkey are all sisters and brothers and we live in Turkey peacefully, without any discriminative provocations. However, USA and EU makes agitations to divide the boundaries of Turkey with using ethnic identities in Turkey, and we are aware of these ambushes. (Real Turks must be aware of these kinda ambushes).


I think your last sentence is where racism seeps in. You are only giving an illusion that everybody is respected under turkish nationalism, in reality, you are only accepting an extreme circle of what you call "real" turks as legitimate, all other Turks should either do as you say or they will be labeled as anti-Turkish.

94.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:12 am

Quoting KeithL:

So, to my point. The free spirits in America that want to ban Christmas Trees, Nativity scenes and yes....the Pledge of Allegiance, I hear them, but I don't respect them.



I just wonder how you get these together? I dont know the Pledge of Allegiance, but let's say Andımız, Christmas Tree and Nativity. I'm not a Christian, but I would want for the Christmas tree and the Nativity to stay, but Im not a supporter of the Ant.

Or is this a specific three-combination of a certain group in the States?

95.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:14 am

Quoting KeithL:

Believing in free speech does not mean that I have to believe or even respect what others say. the Nazi's march every year in Skokie, IL (a large Jewish Community). They are exercising their free speech. Do I respect their message? No.

So, to my point. The free spirits in America that want to ban Christmas Trees, Nativity scenes and yes....the Pledge of Allegiance, I hear them, but I don't respect them.

My fascist statement was a joke.




(maybe)


I see. So you're saying that people here who disagree with you have ideas that are equally bad as the Nazis in Skokie or those who oppose Christmas Trees and Nativity scenes?

96.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:16 am

Quoting catwoman:

I think your last sentence is where racism seeps in. You are only giving an illusion that everybody is respected under turkish nationalism, in reality, you are only accepting an extreme circle of what you call "real" turks as legitimate, all other Turks should either do as you say or they will be labeled as anti-Turkish.



+1

97.       KeithL
1455 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:16 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting KeithL:

Believing in free speech does not mean that I have to believe or even respect what others say. the Nazi's march every year in Skokie, IL (a large Jewish Community). They are exercising their free speech. Do I respect their message? No.

So, to my point. The free spirits in America that want to ban Christmas Trees, Nativity scenes and yes....the Pledge of Allegiance, I hear them, but I don't respect them.

My fascist statement was a joke.




(maybe)


I see. So you're saying that people here who disagree with you have ideas that are equally bad as the Nazis in Skokie or those who oppose Christmas Trees and Nativity scenes?



No. Not even close. Using the extreme to make a point.

98.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:30 am

Quoting KeithL:

No. Not even close. Using the extreme to make a point.


Oh, ok, that's good . Keith, I would like to see you trying to understand our point of view before you decide to disrespect it. Seriously, isn't that what you are asking us to do? You are not going to do any good for Turkey or Islam if you disrespect views you disagree with. If you display understanding, the other side will also make that effort.

99.       _Quetzalcoaltl_
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:31 am

u misunderstood my sentence. "Real Turks" implies the ppl who identify themselves as Turk, love livin in Turkey, defending Turkey... etc, regardless the ethnicity. that's all... where's the racist seep?

If u read the expressions of Atatürk carefully, u can clearly infer that there's no existence of "westernization". Atatürk's aim is to reach the contemporary civilization level and then to exceed it. The key of reaching and exceeding is "work, work, work efficiently, and follow the developments in the modern world." Besides, being aware of the ambushes to the motherland. that's all...

civilization can be located in the West or East. It doesnt matter. Our aim is to exceed the civilization level, and westernization can't provide Turkey to be successful, but Turkey should follow the developments in the West. Look what Atatürk's saying:

"Acılar gördük. Bunun sebebi, dünyanın vaziyetini anlayamadığımız içindir."

Atatürk used the nationalistic movements in French Revolution and adapted it to the new state. So, Turkish ppl became "Millet" and they gave up being "Ümmet". Ümmet sisteminden, millet sistemine geçtik böylece. Hence, it's very healthy for the Turkish ppl due to the becoming of "Millet". that's all...

Atatürk's expressions and revolutions can't be understood and emphasized without reading, making investigations from the creditable sources.

Ülkücü ppl betray the nationalism structure of Turkey, and no relationship with Atatürk's nationalism style. So, we dont have to take them seriously. They are the shame for Turkey and they always make agitations and chaos in Turkey. the last work of them is killing Hrant Dink. it's a shame for Turkey and dirt the image of Turkey in the world. I'm still castigating that event...

that's all..

100.       KeithL
1455 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:31 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting KeithL:

No. Not even close. Using the extreme to make a point.


Oh, ok, that's good . Keith, I would like to see you trying to understand our point of view before you decide to disrespect it. Seriously, isn't that what you are asking us to do? You are not going to do any good for Turkey or Islam if you disrespect views you disagree with. If you display understanding, the other side will also make that effort.



What have I disrespected?

101.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:37 am

Quoting KeithL:

What have I disrespected?


From your previous posts I understood that you don't object to free speech, you just don't respect all views. I think you were referring, among other issues, to the Andimiz thread where you didn't agree with some people criticizing the vow; or to our criticism of Alameda. What I am asking you is to try to understand the criticism of your views before you decide to disrespect it. I think I had some good points in my criticism of nationalism, and I me and others are open to a conversation about it, yet, you sometimes seem to just slam us.

102.       KeithL
1455 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:43 am

Did I say anyone here should not have the right to question? All I have done is disagreed. Slam??? Maybe. You have never slammed anyone here?

As I have said countless times. Turkey is at a crossroads now. The nations that form G-7 and are permanent UN Security members did not become stable democracies over night. They went through the same identity struggles early on as Turkey is going through now. This is why I do not hold Turkey to the same standards as I hold to western nations.
Do my views conflict sometimes because of this? Yes.

103.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:50 am

Quoting KeithL:

Did I say anyone here should not have the right to question? All I have done is disagreed. Slam??? Maybe. You have never slammed anyone here?

As I have said countless times. Turkey is at a crossroads now. The nations that form G-7 and are permanent UN Security members did not become stable democracies over night. They went through the same identity struggles early on as Turkey is going through now. This is why I do not hold Turkey to the same standards as I hold to western nations.
Do my views conflict sometimes because of this? Yes.


Ok, I suppose I just disagree with some of your comments.. that's all.

104.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:59 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:

u misunderstood my sentence. "Real Turks" implies the ppl who identify themselves as Turk, love livin in Turkey, defending Turkey... etc, regardless the ethnicity. that's all... where's the racist seep?

If u read the expressions of Atatürk carefully, u can clearly infer that there's no existence of "westernization". Atatürk's aim is to reach the contemporary civilization level and then to exceed it. The key of reaching and exceeding is "work, work, work efficiently, and follow the developments in the modern world." Besides, being aware of the ambushes to the motherland. that's all...

civilization can be located in the West or East. It doesnt matter. Our aim is to exceed the civilization level, and westernization can't provide Turkey to be successful, but Turkey should follow the developments in the West. Look what Atatürk's saying:

"Acılar gördük. Bunun sebebi, dünyanın vaziyetini anlayamadığımız içindir."

Atatürk used the nationalistic movements in French Revolution and adapted it to the new state. So, Turkish ppl became "Millet" and they gave up being "Ümmet". Ümmet sisteminden, millet sistemine geçtik böylece. Hence, it's very healthy for the Turkish ppl due to the becoming of "Millet". that's all...

Atatürk's expressions and revolutions can't be understood and emphasized without reading, making investigations from the creditable sources.

Ülkücü ppl betray the nationalism structure of Turkey, and no relationship with Atatürk's nationalism style. So, we dont have to take them seriously. They are the shame for Turkey and they always make agitations and chaos in Turkey. the last work of them is killing Hrant Dink. it's a shame for Turkey and dirt the image of Turkey in the world. I'm still castigating that event...

that's all..


What if some people are unhappy in Turkey because the state oppresses them? What if some people love the country, but disagree with the dominant ideology, the dominant party... etc. I think that you should not force people to conform to one ideology, people are individuals and they should be free to be who they want to be in their own country. Then they will love it..

105.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 01:32 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:


that's all..



Though I dont agree with all you say (I have to give credit to Catwoman about a certain degree of individualism opposed to one ideology), I find your discussing-style pretty refreshing Lately, everybody who has tried to 'convince' 'us' of how good Atatürk is, how good nationalism is, was just getting offended and made unfriendly remarks about what we can or cannot say. But I think you expressed your opinion about this very well, and Im really glad that you are against those ülkücü too, that killed Hrant Dink. I was in Ankara at the time that it happened, and I remember the news very well.

106.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 08:17 am

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:

I wanna add smth to this subject:

"Türk'e kefen diken karşısında bizi bulur."

This student vow is our traditional features of Turkish educational system and applied in primary schools in order to strenghen the identites of the Turkish posterities. whether u like it or not, u have to show respect this tradition.

the most powerful states in the world are nationalist states. I lived in Paris and Marseille for a long time and observed that French people are very nationalistic, and they reject and ignore the people who are from different countries, and they believe that French nationalism help them to evaluate their identities as well.

Hence, nationalism is a necessity for the states to protect their ID's. Essentially, French Revolution in 1789 was occured in the centre of Europe, so what happened?

the nationalism style of Atatürk is very peaceful, creative, helpful, and innovative. Regardless the ethnic origin, if someone who likes his/her flag, country, culture, he/she's a Turk, that's all... Turks, Kurds, Cerkes, Laz, Armenians, Greeks in Turkey are all sisters and brothers and we live in Turkey peacefully, without any discriminative provocations. However, USA and EU makes agitations to divide the boundaries of Turkey with using ethnic identities in Turkey, and we are aware of these ambushes. (Real Turks must be aware of these kinda ambushes).

Whether u accept or dont accept, you must show your respects to our national identities. Turkey is belonged to Turks, that's all...

look what Atatürk's saying:

"Dünyanın bize hürmet etmesini istiyorsak evvela bu hürmeti, hissen, fiilen, fikren bütün hâl ve hareketlerimizle gösterelim. Bilelim ki milli benliğini bulmayan milletler, başka milletlerin esiridir."

22 March 1924.

any questions?



wellcome
another person here that Im agree.I dont know how long u will tolerate themu will write well as u did...but dont try to explain all well coz they will choice some sentences in your post and start to criticise...cos they just look for some words to attack...whatever u do, they will criticise...my advice u is being relax)

ps. they also will send u PMs to control of u or give u advices about their opinion...this site's is Turkish class but dont belive, here is the forum that u can write everything about Turkey but cant write any about , western etc...coz it is strictly forbidden..wowwwwwwwww

107.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 09:16 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:


that's all..



Though I dont agree with all you say (I have to give credit to Catwoman about a certain degree of individualism opposed to one ideology), I find your discussing-style pretty refreshing


DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.

108.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:35 am

Quoting KeithL:


USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China



I don't think Canada is nationalistic. I doubt Canadians are brainwashed every day to believe that they are the greatest nation in the world and whatever the government does it must be obeyed. I also doubt minorities are looked down on. Also, I may be an ignorant but how many terrorist attacks were there recently?

Japan is more business-oriented. I think it's lost lots of its nationalism to materialism.

England, France and Germany are so mixed racially and nationally that it's hard to speak about the German/British/French spirit. Of course, all these countries have organisations and supporters of nationalism but it's a bit like flogging a dead horse. I doubt they'd eagerly fight for whatever cause their country tells them to. Were they really nationalistic, they'd make their minorities assimilate even if it meant using force.

I'm not sure about China but Russia definitely is nationalistic. Both these countries have long history of not respecting individuals who were more like slaves to the country that citizens. Sacrificing millions was never a problem for their wielders. Now, we may of course debate whether you'd like to live in a country where you cannot decide about yourself if your government appointed fate for you. China regulated birth control and riots turned into massacres. Human rights are still not respected there. And there's the issue of Tibet. If this is what makes you call China a great nation then I'm speechless.

Russia is said to have to be ruled by a strong hand. It has been so for centuries. Nationalism as concept has been used by their rulers to justify their imperialism. Russia is strong, unpredictable and dangerous. However, being the biggest country in the world and controlling a huge part of natural resources like oil or gas it has a massive influence on the world. If any other country dealt with Chechnya the way Russia did, the consequences would be different. Russia is not a democracy, it's an Empire and it will remain so regardless of the name it will take. Are you sure you'd like to live in a country where your voice doesn't matter? Right...

And then there's the USA. Sure it has to enforce national feelings - they have no common roots and their history is just over 200 years old. To create a sense of unity in a country like that you need something to keep them together. Why is the US media the most influential in the world? Because it's one of the means of controlling the nation.

Nationalism isn't really putting national flags in your front yard. It's not repeating a pledge every morning. It's what you are taught to believe in. It's what you read in the papers. It's a country the welfare of whose is more important than the welfare of its folk. Nationalism is when you're taught hatred and you think it means love. It's creating a sense of constant fear, unease and being told that you need to make sacrifices to stop it. Then you send your children to war even if your country is not attacked. You tolerate executions not because that is what should happen to people who disagree with you, you tolerate them because you are forced to think they are your enemies. You let the government under your sheets because you are brainwashed to obey.

I have nothing against patriotism. I admire the people who gave their lives for me to be free. For me to speak Polish, not Russian or German. But loving your country does not mean not asking questions, challenging traditions and making changes. Those who don't progress, move backwards.

109.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:40 am

Quoting girleegirl:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting _Quetzalcoaltl_:


that's all..



Though I dont agree with all you say (I have to give credit to Catwoman about a certain degree of individualism opposed to one ideology), I find your discussing-style pretty refreshing


DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.


Well spotted GG..You might be right..
And apart from that his post has started with a well known racist/fachist saying:
"Türk'e kefen diken karşısında bizi bulur." actually, it is a softened version of the real one, which is "Türk'e Kefen Biçenin Ölümü Korkunç Olur !!!"
I did not find it refreshing at all!!

110.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:57 am

Quoting girleegirl:

DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.



You read my mind, but then in any case this post was with an improved writing style And 'any questions' and the quote at the end, is exactly what made me think that way too

111.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:58 am

Quoting thehandsom:

I did not find it refreshing at all!!




We are talking relative cases here, arent we? Look at what Lapinkulta wrote or QQ..

112.       janissary
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 11:59 am

to all of you that have ability to understand, from Ataturk:

Turkish youth!

Your first duty is forever to preserve and to defend the Turkish independence and the turkish republic.

This is the very foundation of your existence and your future. This foundation is your most precious treasure. in the future, too, there may be malevolent people at home and abroad who will wish to deprive you of this treasure. If some day you are compelled to defend your independence and your republic, you must not tarry to weigh the possibilities and circumstances of the situation before taking up your duty. These possibilities and circumstances may turn out to be extremely unfavourable. The enemies conspiring against your independence and your republic, may have behind them a victory unprecedented in the annals of the world. it may be that, by violence and ruse, all the fortresses of your beloved fatherland may be captured, all its shipyards occupied, all its armies dispersed and every part of the country invaded. And sadder and graver than all these circumstances, those who hold power within the country may be in error, misguided and may even be traitors. Furthermore, they may indentify their personal interests with the political designs of the invaders. The country may be impoverished, ruined and exhausted.

Youth of Turkey’s future,

Even in such circumstances it is your duty to save the turkish independence and republic.

The strength you need is already imbedded in your noble blood.


thank you Ataturk, thank you

113.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:10 pm

That was very moving, I see Ataturk was a great speaker. But what menaces are there for Turks now? What perils are there? Who is the enemy? Who wants to occupy Turkey?

114.       janissary
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:15 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

That was very moving, I see Ataturk was a great speaker. But what menaces are there for Turks now? What perils are there? Who is the enemy? Who wants to occupy Turkey?



you must be joking hehe

115.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:19 pm

Quoting janissary:


you must be joking hehe



About him being a great speaker or Turkey being in danger?
For all I know Turkey suffers from PKK terrorism. Anything else I missed?

116.       lady in red
6947 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 12:24 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting girleegirl:

DK don't be so sure about this. I see very similar writing style to a former, deleted member who used to end his posts with "profound" statements....like "got it", "that's enough" and "mind your own business". If it's true, it is just a matter of time before we see the REAL person behind the posts. Time will tell.



You read my mind, but then in any case this post was with an improved writing style And 'any questions' and the quote at the end, is exactly what made me think that way too



Mine too! I thought it was obvious from his first appearance in the chat room! Nice nick though!

117.       libralady
5152 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 01:20 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting KeithL:

Name one or two for me. I can name many with strong sense of nationalism that are truly independent.
USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China

Of course I have left out some, but these are the obvious that come to mind in just seconds.


What makes these countries great is not their nationalism. Also, what made them great was not their nationalism. And in present day, nationalism in these countries is used to manipulate the masses to allow the governments to carry on their hideous policies.



I did not say nationalism made them great. They are great countries. AND...they are nationalists.



We have a nationalist element, but we are not a nationalistic country, with over 300 nationalities how can we be? Patriotic, maybe and even that is dying because so many people would like to see the Royal family gone.

118.       libralady
5152 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 01:40 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting KeithL:


USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China



I don't think Canada is nationalistic. I doubt Canadians are brainwashed every day to believe that they are the greatest nation in the world and whatever the government does it must be obeyed. I also doubt minorities are looked down on. Also, I may be an ignorant but how many terrorist attacks were there recently?

Japan is more business-oriented. I think it's lost lots of its nationalism to materialism.

England, France and Germany are so mixed racially and nationally that it's hard to speak about the German/British/French spirit. Of course, all these countries have organisations and supporters of nationalism but it's a bit like flogging a dead horse. I doubt they'd eagerly fight for whatever cause their country tells them to. Were they really nationalistic, they'd make their minorities assimilate even if it meant using force.

I'm not sure about China but Russia definitely is nationalistic. Both these countries have long history of not respecting individuals who were more like slaves to the country that citizens. Sacrificing millions was never a problem for their wielders. Now, we may of course debate whether you'd like to live in a country where you cannot decide about yourself if your government appointed fate for you. China regulated birth control and riots turned into massacres. Human rights are still not respected there. And there's the issue of Tibet. If this is what makes you call China a great nation then I'm speechless.

Russia is said to have to be ruled by a strong hand. It has been so for centuries. Nationalism as concept has been used by their rulers to justify their imperialism. Russia is strong, unpredictable and dangerous. However, being the biggest country in the world and controlling a huge part of natural resources like oil or gas it has a massive influence on the world. If any other country dealt with Chechnya the way Russia did, the consequences would be different. Russia is not a democracy, it's an Empire and it will remain so regardless of the name it will take. Are you sure you'd like to live in a country where your voice doesn't matter? Right...

And then there's the USA. Sure it has to enforce national feelings - they have no common roots and their history is just over 200 years old. To create a sense of unity in a country like that you need something to keep them together. Why is the US media the most influential in the world? Because it's one of the means of controlling the nation.

Nationalism isn't really putting national flags in your front yard. It's not repeating a pledge every morning. It's what you are taught to believe in. It's what you read in the papers. It's a country the welfare of whose is more important than the welfare of its folk. Nationalism is when you're taught hatred and you think it means love. It's creating a sense of constant fear, unease and being told that you need to make sacrifices to stop it. Then you send your children to war even if your country is not attacked. You tolerate executions not because that is what should happen to people who disagree with you, you tolerate them because you are forced to think they are your enemies. You let the government under your sheets because you are brainwashed to obey.

I have nothing against patriotism. I admire the people who gave their lives for me to be free. For me to speak Polish, not Russian or German. But loving your country does not mean not asking questions, challenging traditions and making changes. Those who don't progress, move backwards.



Very well written and I would agree with what I know about the countries.

China! Well I have been there several times, and witnessed out of my hotel window the indonctrination of it's people. I would not say they are nationalistic at all! They have a communist regime but are capitalists at the same time. There is far to much corruption (at one point it was 17% of GDP) and polictical arrests resulting in capital punishment. It is a strange country and one that I never felt comfortable in.

119.       libralady
5152 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 01:44 pm

Quoting janissary:

to all of you that have ability to understand, from Ataturk:

Turkish youth!

Your first duty is forever to preserve and to defend the Turkish independence and the turkish republic.

This is the very foundation of your existence and your future. This foundation is your most precious treasure. in the future, too, there may be malevolent people at home and abroad who will wish to deprive you of this treasure. If some day you are compelled to defend your independence and your republic, you must not tarry to weigh the possibilities and circumstances of the situation before taking up your duty. These possibilities and circumstances may turn out to be extremely unfavourable. The enemies conspiring against your independence and your republic, may have behind them a victory unprecedented in the annals of the world. it may be that, by violence and ruse, all the fortresses of your beloved fatherland may be captured, all its shipyards occupied, all its armies dispersed and every part of the country invaded. And sadder and graver than all these circumstances, those who hold power within the country may be in error, misguided and may even be traitors. Furthermore, they may indentify their personal interests with the political designs of the invaders. The country may be impoverished, ruined and exhausted.

Youth of Turkey’s future,

Even in such circumstances it is your duty to save the turkish independence and republic.

The strength you need is already imbedded in your noble blood.


thank you Ataturk, thank you



I have a great deal of respect for this statement, but I don't see why it has to be drummed into young children on a daily basis in the fashion shown in the video. What I have a problem with, is the fact that a child was leading the recital.

120.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 01:54 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

That was very moving, I see Ataturk was a great speaker. But what menaces are there for Turks now? What perils are there? Who is the enemy? Who wants to occupy Turkey?



We should take these things in the right context. This address was actually made at the inauguration of the first parliament in Ankara after the abolition of the Ottoman Empire by Kemal Ataturk. The person who gave this address was a victorious commander who had defeated invading troops liberated his country and fought an equally difficult war when organizing the liberation campaign against his own Sultan. Everything he said in his speech had a reason.

It is also a rather universal speech because as it is laid out in its structure it refers to future possibilities.

The punchline is Ataturk wanted his youth to be very active, very alert and very wise. He wanted to work with pathfinders and pioneers and he personally did his best to aid people at realizing the potential in them. His adopted daughter became the first female combat pilot. In 1934, he gave full suffrage to women. French women would wait until 1941 to gain this right. In 1945 Japanese women gained suffrage. In Belgium, Italy, Romania and Yugoslavia suffrage would come as late as 1946. Just imagine being able to achieve this in a conservative Islam country.

121.       janissary
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 02:47 pm

u all dont know anything about Turkey and some countries' politics about turkey. OPEN UR EYES. PLEASE

122.       girleegirl
5065 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 05:33 pm

Quoting lady in red:


Mine too! I thought it was obvious from his first appearance in the chat room! Nice nick though!


Yeah, a very clever member brought that to my attention and then when I saw the post....well....I think it speaks for itself!

123.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 05:53 pm

Quoting janissary:

u all dont know anything about Turkey and some countries' politics about turkey. OPEN UR EYES. PLEASE


I hope you are not referring all those western countries and usa are out there to get us, divide us, rule us etc.
Because if you do, it will remind me the old coffee house talks like 'ah ah..they pressed the button again' lol
And also it will fit into some of the "Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism":

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe

7. Obsession with National Security

124.       janissary
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 06:18 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

u all dont know anything about Turkey and some countries' politics about turkey. OPEN UR EYES. PLEASE


I hope you are not referring all those western countries and usa are out there to get us, divide us, rule us etc.
Because if you do, it will remind me the old coffee house talks like 'ah ah..they pressed the button again' lol
And also it will fit into some of the "Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism":

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe

7. Obsession with National Security




yes. we are narrow minded and you are one of the most intelligent turkish citizen. we live in a imagination world we create our enemies. all of the other countries are peaceful but we cant understand it with our mind that s why, we think they are against us and they want our lands.

125.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 06:49 pm

Thanks for putting the speech into the perspective Vineyards. Of course, encouraging the young ones to develop, to aim for what's best for them is what each country should be doing. I don't think anyone has a problem with that here.

I know about giving women their rights, I read about it in Ataturk's Mausoleum as well as about making Turkey secular. It must have been difficult and glory be to him for the fact that he achieved it.

However, the way I see it, the discussion here progressed into dwelling upon nationalism as being the result of misunderstood patriotism. When I asked who constitutes such great a danger to Turkey that some members here proclaim that "We shall prevail, we'll never give up, we will be great etc" I got the "are you kidding" answer.

I haven't studied political science, but for all I know, neither the USA nor EU (or, in other words, the bed west) wants to take over Turkey. Why would they? From what I read here, I get the sense that the biggest enemy of Turkey is some of its people who are so full of hate that they see enemies even when there aren't any...

126.       janissary
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 07:09 pm

u must be kidding... if u see turkey maps used by some countries, u will understand us. but I dont want you understand us. we know what is reality. we are aware of it.

127.       janissary
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 07:14 pm

here is one:

click

128.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 08:40 pm

Quoting janissary:

here is one:

click



they wont belive it janis coz they has to see after what happened but It is dream...real turkish citizens will write another history....

129.       armegon
1872 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 09:00 pm

Members here firstly should learn a little bit history of Turkish Republic, if they are interested politics of Turkia, then its better to comment on, otherwise sounds ridiculous as janissary mentioned...

130.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 09:51 pm

Quoting vineyards:

The punchline is Ataturk wanted his youth to be very active, very alert and very wise. He wanted to work with pathfinders and pioneers and he personally did his best to aid people at realizing the potential in them. His adopted daughter became the first female combat pilot. In 1934, he gave full suffrage to women. French women would wait until 1941 to gain this right. In 1945 Japanese women gained suffrage. In Belgium, Italy, Romania and Yugoslavia suffrage would come as late as 1946. Just imagine being able to achieve this in a conservative Islam country.


Really, Ataturk was the greatest world leader ever. Extremely brilliant - talking about having a vision and right judgment..

131.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 09:57 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

u all dont know anything about Turkey and some countries' politics about turkey. OPEN UR EYES. PLEASE


I hope you are not referring all those western countries and usa are out there to get us, divide us, rule us etc.
Because if you do, it will remind me the old coffee house talks like 'ah ah..they pressed the button again' lol
And also it will fit into some of the "Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism":

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe

7. Obsession with National Security





Your definition of fascism fits the Western countries you mentioned so well. Scapegoats and national security obsession... well isn`t this what America has been abusing for years now???

132.       catwoman
8933 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 10:00 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

I don't think Canada is nationalistic. I doubt Canadians are brainwashed every day to believe that they are the greatest nation in the world and whatever the government does it must be obeyed. I also doubt minorities are looked down on. Also, I may be an ignorant but how many terrorist attacks were there recently?

Japan is more business-oriented. I think it's lost lots of its nationalism to materialism.

England, France and Germany are so mixed racially and nationally that it's hard to speak about the German/British/French spirit. Of course, all these countries have organisations and supporters of nationalism but it's a bit like flogging a dead horse. I doubt they'd eagerly fight for whatever cause their country tells them to. Were they really nationalistic, they'd make their minorities assimilate even if it meant using force.

I'm not sure about China but Russia definitely is nationalistic. Both these countries have long history of not respecting individuals who were more like slaves to the country that citizens. Sacrificing millions was never a problem for their wielders. Now, we may of course debate whether you'd like to live in a country where you cannot decide about yourself if your government appointed fate for you. China regulated birth control and riots turned into massacres. Human rights are still not respected there. And there's the issue of Tibet. If this is what makes you call China a great nation then I'm speechless.

Russia is said to have to be ruled by a strong hand. It has been so for centuries. Nationalism as concept has been used by their rulers to justify their imperialism. Russia is strong, unpredictable and dangerous. However, being the biggest country in the world and controlling a huge part of natural resources like oil or gas it has a massive influence on the world. If any other country dealt with Chechnya the way Russia did, the consequences would be different. Russia is not a democracy, it's an Empire and it will remain so regardless of the name it will take. Are you sure you'd like to live in a country where your voice doesn't matter? Right...

And then there's the USA. Sure it has to enforce national feelings - they have no common roots and their history is just over 200 years old. To create a sense of unity in a country like that you need something to keep them together. Why is the US media the most influential in the world? Because it's one of the means of controlling the nation.

Nationalism isn't really putting national flags in your front yard. It's not repeating a pledge every morning. It's what you are taught to believe in. It's what you read in the papers. It's a country the welfare of whose is more important than the welfare of its folk. Nationalism is when you're taught hatred and you think it means love. It's creating a sense of constant fear, unease and being told that you need to make sacrifices to stop it. Then you send your children to war even if your country is not attacked. You tolerate executions not because that is what should happen to people who disagree with you, you tolerate them because you are forced to think they are your enemies. You let the government under your sheets because you are brainwashed to obey.

I have nothing against patriotism. I admire the people who gave their lives for me to be free. For me to speak Polish, not Russian or German. But loving your country does not mean not asking questions, challenging traditions and making changes. Those who don't progress, move backwards.


133.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Apr 2008 Wed 10:04 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

u all dont know anything about Turkey and some countries' politics about turkey. OPEN UR EYES. PLEASE


I hope you are not referring all those western countries and usa are out there to get us, divide us, rule us etc.
Because if you do, it will remind me the old coffee house talks like 'ah ah..they pressed the button again' lol
And also it will fit into some of the "Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism":

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe

7. Obsession with National Security





Your definition of fascism fits the Western countries you mentioned so well. Scapegoats and national security obsession... well isn`t this what America has been abusing for years now???


Absolutely..
It is a generic definition...

134.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:03 pm

Quoting janissary:

u must be kidding... if u see turkey maps used by some countries, u will understand us. but I dont want you understand us. we know what is reality. we are aware of it.



Ok, I saw this map. Do you really think it is an official drawing of US policy? Were these plan real, Turkey would have left NATO on the first hearing of it. Maybe it is a plan, an idea, but it has no chances to succeed.

First of all, Turkey is no threat to the West. Au contraire, being an ally to the West, it is like a wall against the Muslim world. Then, cutting the territories of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Armenia for the benefit of Kurds seems unlikely. Why would US want to gain friendship of one country and start war with the whole East?

Moreover, the map is from 2006 I think and Pentagon assured that "that the map does not reflect official U.S. policy and objectives in the region" (quote from the site you gave). So far no element of this plan is put to action and new presidential elections are on their way. I doubt the next president will be as interested in interfering in the Middle East as Bush is.

I do understand that seeing a map like this, strange ideas come to your mind. But it will not happen.

135.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:06 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting janissary:

u must be kidding... if u see turkey maps used by some countries, u will understand us. but I dont want you understand us. we know what is reality. we are aware of it.



Ok, I saw this map. Do you really think it is an official drawing of US policy? Were these plan real, Turkey would have left NATO on the first hearing of it. Maybe it is a plan, an idea, but it has no chances to succeed.

First of all, Turkey is no threat to the West. Au contraire, being an ally to the West, it is like a wall against the Muslim world. Then, cutting the territories of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Armenia for the benefit of Kurds seems unlikely. Why would US want to gain friendship of one country and start war with the whole East?

Moreover, the map is from 2006 I think and Pentagon assured that "that the map does not reflect official U.S. policy and objectives in the region" (quote from the site you gave). So far no element of this plan is put to action and new presidential elections are on their way. I doubt the next president will be as interested in interfering in the Middle East as Bush is.

I do understand that seeing a map like this, strange ideas come to your mind. But it will not happen.


so much wisdom.....

136.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:07 pm

Quoting catwoman:


so much wisdom.....



That's coz I've got two brains lol

137.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:09 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

That's coz I've got two brains lol


One of them is extremely underdeveloped... I'm afraid! lol

138.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:21 pm

Quoting catwoman:


One of them is extremely underdeveloped... I'm afraid! lol



How dare you? Don't you know that every child is a genius until the age of 6...when compulsory education begins and kills it lol

139.       janissary
0 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:42 pm

when USA declares they have many enemies, it s ok for you.

140.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:45 pm

Quoting janissary:

when USA declares they have many enemies, it s ok for you.



No, it's not. I am against US foreign policy, especially their actions in Iraq. Have I ever written that I support the US aggression?

141.       janissary
0 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 12:47 pm

did I say something for you. I said ppl who dont accept turkey has enemies. they think we imagine enemies I dont know what u think.

142.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 03:00 pm

Some people seem to think that accepting the fact that there exists such a thing as 'over-nationality' in your country, makes you love your country less? I think it makes you love your country more, with all that it has inside..

And for Janis: please don't take such maps seriously It means you take USA's foreign policy very serious I agree with DD, the next president probably wont be that 'obsessed' with the Middle East. At least I really hope so, the west sort of created a chaos in the East decades ago, and now the US claims to try and 'improve' the Middle East, but all they do is selfishly destroy what should be healed

143.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 03:04 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Really, Ataturk was the greatest world leader ever. Extremely brilliant - talking about having a vision and right judgment..



+1


If you ever get the change to go to Ankara, I really suggest (for all members) to go and visit Anıtkabir. It is really very impressive. I got lucky: the father of a friend of ours works for the army, so he could get us a personal guide and a special treatment.

But really. Turkish people sometimes dont seem to know what 'sense and simplicity' is, but Anitkabir is really one of the places that is so silent and undone of all 'over-do', that you realize even more what a great leader he was.

144.       teaschip
3870 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 04:18 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Some people seem to think that accepting the fact that there exists such a thing as 'over-nationality' in your country, makes you love your country less? I think it makes you love your country more, with all that it has inside..

And for Janis: please don't take such maps seriously It means you take USA's foreign policy very serious I agree with DD, the next president probably wont be that 'obsessed' with the Middle East. At least I really hope so, the west sort of created a chaos in the East decades ago, and now the US claims to try and 'improve' the Middle East, but all they do is selfishly destroy what should be healed



I happen to believe it's the other way around.. The Middle East does enough to destroy themselves without the aid of the U.S.

145.       janissary
0 posts
 03 Apr 2008 Thu 04:27 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting catwoman:

Really, Ataturk was the greatest world leader ever. Extremely brilliant - talking about having a vision and right judgment..



+1


If you ever get the change to go to Ankara, I really suggest (for all members) to go and visit Anıtkabir. It is really very impressive. I got lucky: the father of a friend of ours works for the army, so he could get us a personal guide and a special treatment.

But really. Turkish people sometimes dont seem to know what 'sense and simplicity' is, but Anitkabir is really one of the places that is so silent and undone of all 'over-do', that you realize even more what a great leader he was.



sometimes u confuse me, I hope u are ok now or not drunk. Ur posts were a bit different before

about map. I dont take none of them serious. We are turkish youth, we re aware of everything

146.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 01:09 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:


I haven't studied political science, but for all I know, neither the USA nor EU (or, in other words, the bed west) wants to take over Turkey. Why would they? From what I read here, I get the sense that the biggest enemy of Turkey is some of its people who are so full of hate that they see enemies even when there aren't any...



Let's take a look at who is investing heavily in arms. Whose senate passed a defense doctrine even Hitler would not dare to pass in his heyday; who is routinely sending troops oversees.

To cut a long story short, the US, the UK have always been interested in the Middle East. Turkey has links to the region ethnic ties between Kurds and Arabs in this country. Therefore both of the countries are the sides of a nasty games being played behind closed doors.

147.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 01:34 pm

I absolutely agree that the Middle East is of great interest to the US. But it doesn't mean US would like to conquer Turkey. Turkey is an ally in NATO and is important for strategic reasons. If US wanted to divide Turkey and give part of it to Kurdistan, Turkey no longer would be an ally and would join anti-US countries and helped to form a strong front against US and EU. US would never risk it.

Politics have nothing to do with likes or dislikes, it is cold calculation of what is more beneficial. And it is more beneficial to the US to keep Turkey on their side.

148.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 01:46 pm

There are no frienships in international politics. Every country must be prepard for the worst. We cannot establish a foreign policy on the assumption that America will always be our friend.

Plus the US is fond of threatening their friends when it thinks that they are not submissive enough. A former US Defense Secretary once said when Turkey did not grant the US the right to use the bases in Turkey to organize the air raids from: Well, we (the US) can be sure that New York and Boston will remain in the US but can Turkey be sure whether Istanbul and Izmir will always be theirs?

149.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 03:16 pm

Quoting vineyards:

There are no frienships in international politics. Every country must be prepard for the worst. We cannot establish a foreign policy on the assumption that America will always be our friend.

Plus the US is fond of threatening their friends when it thinks that they are not submissive enough. A former US Defense Secretary once said when Turkey did not grant the US the right to use the bases in Turkey to organize the air raids from: Well, we (the US) can be sure that New York and Boston will remain in the US but can Turkey be sure whether Istanbul and Izmir will always be theirs?



Interesting then if Turkey was a so called friend they should have had no problem with letting us use your airspace. Then several years later decide to try to reep the benefits and go into Northern Iraq. I'm still not convinced of your governments motive for going into Northern Iraq. Some fear of a new Kurdistan, possibly?

150.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 03:23 pm

Friends don't threaten and humiliate friends. Friends don't take money from other friends and then turn around and act like they don't owe any allegence. Turkey isn't too proud to come begging to the US for money. I recall we forgave a 9 billion dollar debt to Turkey.

So Vineyard please explain friendship then to me?

151.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 03:24 pm

Quoting vineyards:

There are no frienships in international politics. Every country must be prepard for the worst.



That's exactly what I said in my previous post. Of course, counting on your allies only would be naive. Each country takes an egoistic approach working out foreign policy. My point was that living in constant fear of a conspiracy that doesn't exist doesn't do good. It's a pity to see young Turks living in a free country who believe the whole West wants to annihilate their motherland when it's not the case.

Quoting teaschip1:

Interesting then if Turkey was a so called friend they should have had no problem with letting us use your airspace.



Don't you think it was pretty selfish of the US to ask for it? Letting you use their bases, they'd be at risk of bombing as the bases would be strategic points, not the US.

152.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 03:30 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting vineyards:

There are no frienships in international politics. Every country must be prepard for the worst.



That's exactly what I said in my previous post. Of course, counting on your allies only would be naive. Each country takes an egoistic approach working out foreign policy. My point was that living in constant fear of a conspiracy that doesn't exist doesn't do good. It's a pity to see young Turks living in a free country who believe the whole West wants to annihilate their motherland when it's not the case.

Quoting teaschip1:

Interesting then if Turkey was a so called friend they should have had no problem with letting us use your airspace.



Don't you think it was pretty selfish of the US to ask for it? Letting you use their bases, they'd be at risk of bombing as the bases would be strategic points, not the US.



I didn't find this selfish or unreasonable at all. I don't see how Turkey would be at risk. It was mearly using their runways, which the U.S. has helped fund. They had no problem in the Gulf War with allowing us to.

153.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 03:54 pm

Teaschip, I am not willing to get involved in the gutter fight you are trying to start. You will have to find someone else to pour your derision on.

154.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 04:00 pm

Quote:

Plus the US is fond of threatening their friends when it thinks that they are not submissive enough.



Vineyard, please keep in mind when YOU post controversial lines here, expect to get a response.

Maybe you need to rethink your gutter statements or be prepared to receive a gutter response back.

155.       KeithL
1455 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 05:17 pm

We know, we know.... America is Great, Turkey sucks. blah blah blah...

156.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 05:58 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

Quote:

Plus the US is fond of threatening their friends when it thinks that they are not submissive enough.



Vineyard, please keep in mind when YOU post controversial lines here, expect to get a response.

Maybe you need to rethink your gutter statements or be prepared to receive a gutter response back.



OK I've received my gutter response back. Now, looking forward to your next gutter response. You know anyone can post here.

157.       teaschip
3870 posts
 04 Apr 2008 Fri 06:47 pm

Quoting KeithL:

We know, we know.... America is Great, Turkey sucks. blah blah blah...



I'm glad you agree America is great, however I don't agree that Turkey sucks.

158.       vineyards
1954 posts
 05 Apr 2008 Sat 12:43 pm

This is a general response to everyone ignorant on the history of Turco-american friendship.
This is the record of a great friendship between Turkey and US with excerpts from newspapers. Turkey fought alongside US in the Korean war forming the so called reserve forces backing up the US troops. It was positioned right into the middle of the quagmire by the "dark orders" given by the US generals. This is a story of how General Yazici saved the ass of the US in Korea creating a "small" miracle.

The rest can be found at :

http://www.korean-war.com/turkey.html

Ever since this display of friendship, Turkey thinks twice before sending troops outside the country.

"4500 soldiers in the middle of the firing line have known how to create miracle. The sacrifices of the Turks will eternally remain in our minds." - Washington Tribune

"The courageous battles of the Turkish Brigade have created a favorable effect on the whole United Nations Forces." - Time

"The surprise of the Korean battles were not the Chinese but the Turks. It is impossible at this moment to find a word to describe the heroism which the Turks have shown in the battles." - Abent Post

"The Turks have shown in Kunuri a heroism worthy of their glorious history. The Turks have gained the admiration of the whole world through their glorious fighting in the battles." - Figaro

"The Turks who have been known throughout history by their courage and decency, have proved that they have kept these characteristics, in the war which the United Nations undertook in Korea." - Burner - U.S. Congressman

"There is no one left who does not know that the Turks, our valuable allies, are hard warriors and that they have accomplished very great feats at the front." - Claude Pepper, U.S. Senator

"I now understand that the vote I gave in favor of assistance to Turkey was the most fitting vote I gave in my life. Courage, bravery and heroism are the greatest virtues which will sooner or later conquer. In this matter, I know no nation superior to the Turks." - Rose - U.S. Senator

"While the Turks were for a long time fighting against the enemy and dying, the British and Americans were withdrawing. The Turks, who were out of ammunition, affixed their bayonets and attacked the enemy and there ensued a terrible hand to hand combat. The Turks succeeded in withdrawing by continuous combat and by carrying their injured comrades on their backs. They paraded at Pyongyang with their heads held high." - G.G. Martin - British Lieutenant General

"The Turkish forces have shown success above that expected in the battles they gave in Korea." - General Collings - Commander US Army

"We owe the escape of thousands of United Nations troops out of a certain encirclement to the heroism of the Turkish soldiers. The Turkish soldiers in Korea have added a new and unforgettable page of honor to the customs and legends of heroism of the Turkish nation." - Emanuel Shinwell - U.K. Minister of Defense

"The heroic soldiers of a heroic nation, you have saved the Eighth Army and the IX'th Army Crops from encirclement and the 2nd Division from destruction. I came here today to thank you on behalf of the United Nations Army." - General Walton H. Walker, Commander, Eighth Army

"The Turks are the hero of heroes. There is no impossibility for the Turkish Brigade." - General Douglas MacArthur - United Nations Forces Commander in Chief

"The military situation in Korea is being followed with concern by the whole American public. But in these concerned days, the heroism shown by the Turks has given hope to the American nation. It has inculeated them with courage. The American public fully appreciates the value of the services rendered by the Turkish Brigade and knows that because of them the Eighth American Army could withdraw without disarray. The American public understands that the United Nations Forces in Korea were saved from encirclement and from falling in to the hands of the communists by the heroism shown by the Turks."


After reading this, check out the results of another joint campaign at Bosnia. The US built the largest ever military base in history. The base is so big, together with the Chinese Wall it is one of the two structures visible from outer space. Every other friend has long returned home after liberating Bosnia. It turns out our great friend has some other intentions as well.

Our friend is notorious for helping people under its patronage. Remember what happened to the Bikini islands. How they have been deported from their native land after the bomb experiement made on their island. In Iraq there would be chemical weapons and that constituted the primary reason for the invasion, where are the chemical facilities?

Our government in the 50's was naive enough to believe that the US was our friend. There is no denying that some of the deal might have included a foreign aid too. Luckily, we are no longer selling our blood for any money.
But truth be told we have never sold our friends like some of our friends did in the past.

Now go figure out who sucks big time.

159.       KeithL
1455 posts
 05 Apr 2008 Sat 05:37 pm

Great post Vineyards!!!

160.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Apr 2008 Sat 10:06 pm

Quoting janissary:

sometimes u confuse me, I hope u are ok now or not drunk. Ur posts were a bit different before

about map. I dont take none of them serious. We are turkish youth, we re aware of everything



They are not confusing canım, and I am not drunk either. (where did you get that from ).

I don't get where you got the idea from that I dont respect Atatürk. Some people here seem to think I am anti-turkish and pro-seperationists. I love Turkey and its culture, and I love part of its culture that belongs to Kurds. I dont love the people who try and break that up On the other hand, I dont see why villages needed their names changed and I dont love people who shout that there is no wrong-doing against Kurdish citizens in TR. So there is always two sides. You should learn to pick somewhere in the middle, if I would name my daughter a kurdish name (which is apparantly illegal) doesn't mean I support PKK Respecting Atatürk, doesnt mean I worship him As I said, hep iki taraf var, and I hope these two sides can come closer to each other instead of breaking them apart.

161.       teaschip
3870 posts
 06 Apr 2008 Sun 04:52 am

I don’t believe anyone disputed Turkey being an asset to the Americans in the Korean War. However, lets look back after World War II when the Brits left Greece and Turkey and the Truman Doctrine was signed. Basically the U.S. committing to balance the power in the Near East. Turkey welcomed that with open arms it is estimated at $400 million that went to Greece and Turkey as a result of the Truman Doctrine.

Let us not forget as well why Turkey entered the Korean War. They wanted to show their solidarity to the West not to mention more importantly what their capabilities were. As Turkey entered the Korean War there were over 3,000 casualties and approx 700 deaths. Unfortunately, Turkey entered into the War lacking weapons and equipment that were totally obsolete. The United States had to increase their military budget form $13 to about $50 billion that amount meant the military would have better guns more equipment and yes, their was money for Turkey. This was the turning point for Turkey’s role both in European and Near Eastern Power and it’s defense in which the United States supported and as a result Turkeys full support membership into NATO.

With Turkey’s army of nearly 500,000 people and equipment obsolete, the United States began to understand that Turkey as an investment of the security of the West. It cost $9,000 to fit a Turkish soldier where as to put an American soldier in Turkey it was $60,000 . So the money sent to Turkey in paid dividends was basically a terms of Western security. The critical peace between Turkey and the United States was the concern from Turkey of the Soviet Union. What Turkey wanted was a guarantee that strategically aligning with the United States who had nuclear weapons. What Turkey was willing to committ was a defense to the West , a membership into NATO, military assistance, economic assistance. In which the United States followed through on every aspect and continue s to do so this very day.

I'm sorry you are compelled to say "we suck". :-S

162.       vineyards
1954 posts
 06 Apr 2008 Sun 01:44 pm

It is evident that you belong to a supermarket culture where everything is measured in dollars. I am trying my best not to flame you any further than that. There is a phrase common in countries full of people who think they can buy everything with their money: put your money where your mouth is! I am not willing to see anyone of our soldiers or people get killed because of the "criminal" ambitions of your government.

163.       KeithL
1455 posts
 06 Apr 2008 Sun 03:40 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

I don’t believe anyone disputed Turkey being an asset to the Americans in the Korean War. However, lets look back after World War II when the Brits left Greece and Turkey and the Truman Doctrine was signed. Basically the U.S. committing to balance the power in the Near East. Turkey welcomed that with open arms it is estimated at $400 million that went to Greece and Turkey as a result of the Truman Doctrine.

Let us not forget as well why Turkey entered the Korean War. They wanted to show their solidarity to the West not to mention more importantly what their capabilities were. As Turkey entered the Korean War there were over 3,000 casualties and approx 700 deaths. Unfortunately, Turkey entered into the War lacking weapons and equipment that were totally obsolete. The United States had to increase their military budget form $13 to about $50 billion that amount meant the military would have better guns more equipment and yes, their was money for Turkey. This was the turning point for Turkey’s role both in European and Near Eastern Power and it’s defense in which the United States supported and as a result Turkeys full support membership into NATO.

With Turkey’s army of nearly 500,000 people and equipment obsolete, the United States began to understand that Turkey as an investment of the security of the West. It cost $9,000 to fit a Turkish soldier where as to put an American soldier in Turkey it was $60,000 . So the money sent to Turkey in paid dividends was basically a terms of Western security. The critical peace between Turkey and the United States was the concern from Turkey of the Soviet Union. What Turkey wanted was a guarantee that strategically aligning with the United States who had nuclear weapons. What Turkey was willing to committ was a defense to the West , a membership into NATO, military assistance, economic assistance. In which the United States followed through on every aspect and continue s to do so this very day.



Excellent cut and past response...bravo!!!

164.       teaschip
3870 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 02:46 am

Actually, my post wasn't cut and pasted. It was research I did on the matter, found on the internet. Please be my guest and try to cut and paste this link, it's protected.So what the hell is your point Keith? You may also want to look at Vineyards post as well, found the same information on Yahoo. You obviously have a problem with me, as a mod if you have personal problem, you need to pm me. I'm tired of your calis remarks. It is quite evident who the immature one is here. I post, vineyard responds and Keith is right behind him. Actually, it's quite amusing how you protect eachother. I didn't realize men did this sort of thing.

Responding to Vineyards post. Bought obviously once again Turkey has no problem taking the money. Now what's worse? What kind of message does that send?

165.       teaschip
3870 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 02:57 am

Also if you notice, Keith and vineyard NEVER respond on Jans posts. Interesting, now isn't it. lol

166.       vineyards
1954 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 03:37 am

I personally don't endorse all of his posts. So what? Should I react to every single post just to please you?

167.       teaschip
3870 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 03:41 am

Quoting vineyards:

I personally don't endorse all of his posts. So what? Should I react to every single post just to please you?



No, turn the other cheek when it's your convienence. Silence, is the best method. I sure see you responding to mine and handsomes, but that's just by coicendence now isn't it.

168.       vineyards
1954 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 03:43 am

I was once a target of Turkish nationalists in this site but since you talk first and research later on...

169.       catwoman
8933 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 03:56 am

Quoting teaschip1:

No, turn the other cheek when it's your convienence. Silence, is the best method. I sure see you responding to mine and handsomes, but that's just by coicendence now isn't it.


Teaschip, I really think it's his business to respond to the posts he wants to respond to.

170.       teaschip
3870 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 04:01 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting teaschip1:

No, turn the other cheek when it's your convienence. Silence, is the best method. I sure see you responding to mine and handsomes, but that's just by coicendence now isn't it.


Teaschip, I really think it's his business to respond to the posts he wants to respond to.



Agree, I just like consistency.

171.       KeithL
1455 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 06:12 am

Quoting teaschip1:

Actually, my post wasn't cut and pasted. It was research I did on the matter, found on the internet. Please be my guest and try to cut and paste this link, it's protected.So what the hell is your point Keith? You may also want to look at Vineyards post as well, found the same information on Yahoo. You obviously have a problem with me, as a mod if you have personal problem, you need to pm me. I'm tired of your calis remarks. It is quite evident who the immature one is here. I post, vineyard responds and Keith is right behind him. Actually, it's quite amusing how you protect eachother. I didn't realize men did this sort of thing.

Responding to Vineyards post. Bought obviously once again Turkey has no problem taking the money. Now what's worse? What kind of message does that send?



After the things that are said about me at this website, you consider this an attack? My, my, what thin skin we have. Imagine how Alemeda must feel when you and your friends pound on her every chance you get.
I was not attacking. I simply think you found some paragraphs critical of Turkey and its motives and cut and pasted them here. Whether I am a mod or not, I have the right to question anything on this Turkish Cultural website that I think unfairly criticizes Turkey.

172.       KeithL
1455 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 06:29 am

Quoting teaschip1:

Also if you notice, Keith and vineyard NEVER respond on Jans posts. Interesting, now isn't it. lol



With all due respect, I am more politically alligned with Vineyard and Jans. So there is less to disagree on. This is only logical.

173.       teaschip
3870 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 03:27 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting teaschip1:

Actually, my post wasn't cut and pasted. It was research I did on the matter, found on the internet. Please be my guest and try to cut and paste this link, it's protected.So what the hell is your point Keith? You may also want to look at Vineyards post as well, found the same information on Yahoo. You obviously have a problem with me, as a mod if you have personal problem, you need to pm me. I'm tired of your calis remarks. It is quite evident who the immature one is here. I post, vineyard responds and Keith is right behind him. Actually, it's quite amusing how you protect eachother. I didn't realize men did this sort of thing.

Responding to Vineyards post. Bought obviously once again Turkey has no problem taking the money. Now what's worse? What kind of message does that send?



After the things that are said about me at this website, you consider this an attack? My, my, what thin skin we have. Imagine how Alemeda must feel when you and your friends pound on her every chance you get.
I was not attacking. I simply think you found some paragraphs critical of Turkey and its motives and cut and pasted them here. Whether I am a mod or not, I have the right to question anything on this Turkish Cultural website that I think unfairly criticizes Turkey.



You are very disillusioned Keith, maybe it's the time difference you are adjusting to. If you look back at my discussion regarding the Korean war with Vineyard and my response, please tell me where I was negative towards Turkey. In fact I agreed they were an asset. I think sometimes you read more into things without rationally giving it some thought. It would be helpful as a mod to sit back and asses what someone writes here and not assume what it interpertates in your mind only.

Also, I rarely discuss Alamada here and have only brought up her links on two occassions when responding to a post about how links should be posted. So if this is pounding, please. If you go back to several of my posts you will find me making the statement that I am fascinated with Turkey's culture. So quit accusing me indirectly of being anti-Turkish. I really don't appreciate it.

174.       teaschip
3870 posts
 07 Apr 2008 Mon 03:27 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Quoting teaschip1:

Also if you notice, Keith and vineyard NEVER respond on Jans posts. Interesting, now isn't it. lol



With all due respect, I am more politically alligned with Vineyard and Jans. So there is less to disagree on. This is only logical.



Yes, we can all see that. So sad...indeed.

175.       alara75
1 posts
 26 Mar 2013 Tue 03:28 pm

For those who talks about nationalism, you must differentiate  the words between nationalism and racism. Do not mix up these words. There is absolutely nothing wrong or harm to love your country and it´s natural that you want to protect your country which doesnt make you a racist because of that. And it first starts with yourself and your country. You can´t be good with peace to any other countries/people or to love if you dont have peace and love to your own motherland.It´s like people almost feels shy or think it will be wrong to say that they love their country because it will sound like they´re racists; from their point of view.  I can see that the world has misunderstood the Turks and dont understand  since there is a lot of discussions about this. Turks might be nationalists but they don´t hate other nations in this world. They are only protecting their country from enemies and that doesnt make them racists for that. Its a ridicilous reasoning to mix up nationalism and racism cause there is a big difference between those words!

Yurtta Sulh Cihanda Sulh! Peace in the country Peace in the World! {#emotions_dlg.bye}

176.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Mar 2013 Tue 03:53 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished.. It is quite embarressing!!

 

Only (ands) of people like you can be abolished, because their (ands) are worthless anyway.

When it comes to (ands) of people like me, no one can abolish them.

 

Watch it kitty !

Are you sure you know what an (and) is?



Edited (3/26/2013) by AlphaF

177.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 26 Mar 2013 Tue 05:15 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

 

Only (ands) of people like you can be abolished, because their (ands) are worthless anyway.

When it comes to (ands) of people like me, no one can abolish them.

 

Watch it kitty !

Are you sure you know what an (and) is?

 

Lustrum itching of yours?

178.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 26 Mar 2013 Tue 06:24 pm

Are you sure you know what an (and) is?

 

You must have taken this oath many times yourself as one of "us Turks".  You can not keep your oath, you can keep nothing. 

God save your own "L"!


179.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 26 Mar 2013 Tue 06:53 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

Are you sure you know what an (and) is?

 

You must have taken this oath many times yourself as one of "us Turks".  You can not keep your oath, you can keep nothing. 

God save your own "L"!


 

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