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ANDIMIZ! (Student Vow)
(179 Messages in 18 pages - View all)
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50.       janissary
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:46 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

do you want THE list of all intellects killed by the NATIONALISTS?



why dont u give it to police if u have a list in ur hand? why are u just talking? and how do u know they memorize the andimiz by heart?

51.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:47 pm

Quoting KeithL:

+1
All strong, modernized countries have a strong national identity. Anyone that can be "anti-Andımız" are capable of being anti-anything that is good in this world.


I completely disagree with you and I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that anybody who's anti adimis is "capable" of being anti anything good... :-S. This is such a strange thing to say... I don't even know where to start with responding to it. Anybody is capable of anything. When we are being anti-adimiz, we are giving you a clear reason. Instead of responding to that argument, you are simply accusing us in some vague way based on some unknown, unclear logic. You are simply playing on feelings instead of being rational.

Oh, and the statement that all great countries have a strong national identity is simply false.

52.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:51 pm

It's like Elizabeth said about America's Pledge of Allegiance. It is a tribute to those who fought so many wars and gave their lives at a young age so that today's children can be free and live under self-rule.
The people in the US that protest pledge of allegiance are the type of people who will protest anything, just for the sake of protest.

Andımız is the same. It honors Turkey's hero's that kept Turkey out of the hand's of its enemies after the fall of the Osmans.

53.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:54 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

This vow (Andımız) should be abolished..
It is quite embarressing!!



You have a problem with this handsom?
using Deli_Kizen's translation

Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,
I am Turkish, I am honest, I am hard working

İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.
My principle is to protect the small, to respect the big, to love my country and my people very much from my heart

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.
My ideal is to (improve), to move forward/to progress

Ey Büyük Atatürk!
Hey Great Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.
I promise solemnly to walk on the road you have opened, to the goal you have showed, without stopping

Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.
May my existence be a gift to the Turkish existence

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"
How happy for the one who says 'I am a Turk'

Like it or not, the world is comprised of many different nations, not one. In order to maintain themselves, each nation has to protect their national identity and integrity.

54.       KeithL
1455 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 07:54 pm

Quoting catwoman:


Oh, and the statement that all great countries have a strong national identity is simply false.



Name one or two for me. I can name many with strong sense of nationalism that are truly independent.
USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China

Of course I have left out some, but these are the obvious that come to mind in just seconds.

55.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:03 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Name one or two for me. I can name many with strong sense of nationalism that are truly independent.
USA
Canada
England
France
Germany
Russia
Japan
China

Of course I have left out some, but these are the obvious that come to mind in just seconds.


What makes these countries great is not their nationalism. Also, what made them great was not their nationalism. And in present day, nationalism in these countries is used to manipulate the masses to allow the governments to carry on their hideous policies.

56.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:05 pm

I agree with both Keith and Alameda. Global Village project was a lame one from the very beginning. We are all different countries, cultures, nations. I am astounded at seeing how easily some of us have solved the mystery of foreign cultures.

In today's world, you cannot run even the simplest form of international business unless you understand the internal mechanisms of the society you are doing business in.

I am neither like Roswitha, Catwoman, Deli Kizin, Alameda or anyone else belonging to a different nation. I am what I am and it is your problem if you think I am doing the right thing when I live up to your expectations in terms of thinking and reasoning. All that you are doing is trying to reverse irreversible values deep rooted into cultures. I have an accomplished culture which is not like yours, my music is not even similar to yours, my philosophy can be something to be ridiculed from say a German's point of view but in fact it is my life and soul and I am proud of being a member of this culture because it makes me happy.

The schools in Turkey educate Turkish children. Those children will live in Turkey not in Washington or London. They will hopefully stay and work for their country. We know how weakness is penalized in the international arena of politics where everyone works for their interests. We would like them to love their country at least as much as a US, English or Polish person does. (We don't even want them to love it as much as the French do).

Summarily, we would like to hold on to our cultural heritage by living and dying as Turks.

57.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:12 pm

Vineyards, I certainly respect your feelings and opinions, but I would also like to give my opinion in response to you. I am not trying to change you (or anybody else), I am only responding to what I see. At the same time, I am not only not criticizing you and your culture as a whole, but only certain aspects of it. And my only purpose in doing that is to point out things that might be to your benefit and to the benefit of other people living in your country. Don't you think that people/cultures should take a critical look at themselves every once in a while in order to keep getting better and not to stagnate?

58.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:17 pm

Quote:

Yess I do..
Lets go line by line..(I did not want to this )

Quoting alameda:



You have a problem with this handsom?
using Deli_Kizen's translation

Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,
I am Turkish, I am honest, I am hard working


This should be translated as 'I am a Turk'. This simply implies a race..NOT SAME AS TURKISH.
Why a kurd (or ermenian or whoever else), who does not want to call himself a turk, will have to say this?

Quoting alameda:


İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.
My principle is to protect the small, to respect the big, to love my country and my people very much from my heart


last bit should be translated as 'my principle is to love my country and my people more than myself'.
There is promotion of self-sacrificing here..Not suitable for 7 years olds for me..

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.
My ideal is to (improve), to move forward/to progress

Quoting alameda:


Ey Büyük Atatürk!
Hey Great Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.

I promise solemnly to walk on the road you have opened, to the goal you have showed, without stopping


I am sorry but Ataturk as a person is different and his ideas are different.
his ideas were political ideas. They will be criticized with the time and they will be changed with the time. And the goals will change with the time.
Many of his ideas have already been changed with the time.

Quote:


Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.
May my existence be a gift to the Turkish existence

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"
How happy for the one who says 'I am a Turk'


Again the same principle as above..promotion of self sacrificing. I dont think it is suitable for 7 years olds.
And I know the fact that 'ne mutlu turkum diyene' has been screamed into some people's face in Turkey.
And it makes some people unhappy..
and it is being used by the nationalists and nationalism breeds its antis, forcing some other people to be nationalist.
That is why kurdish nationalism is soaring for example.

And I find turkish nationalism quite dangerous and forceful.

My fear is that it it is not stopped now we will come to a point that our kurds will not want to live with us.

59.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:19 pm

Quoting KeithL:

It's like Elizabeth said about America's Pledge of Allegiance. It is a tribute to those who fought so many wars and gave their lives at a young age so that today's children can be free and live under self-rule.


Yes, honoring the good people from the past is a great thing. The difference between Elisabeth and some nationalistic Turks here is that she doesn't make it into an obsession that blinds her to the wrong-doings of her country. And it's really about the effect that it produces that makes it good or bad.

Quoting KeithL:

The people in the US that protest pledge of allegiance are the type of people who will protest anything, just for the sake of protest.


This is the kind of statement that really would be impossible to believe. I would rather listen to their argument and decide based on that if they protest just for the sake of protesting.

Quoting KeithL:

Andımız is the same. It honors Turkey's hero's that kept Turkey out of the hand's of its enemies after the fall of the Osmans.


It is definitely a great thing to remember the people who paved a way for us. But a brainless repetition that turns people into individuals that are unable to continue the good work of their foremothers and fathers is hardly a good thing for the people and the country. It is just a political tool.

60.       vineyards
1954 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 08:24 pm

Catwoman, we Turks criticize ourselves more than you know. We have been doing this for at least a couple of centuries.
Sadly, nothing gets better by criticizing when critics contain destructive elements.

For example, when someone implies that our oath is wrong because it contains racist, nationalistic elements then I am entitled to asking this question: why am I supposed to understand that oath the way you do? Why should I not use the word Turk whereas it means nothing more than a citizen of Turkey.

Ethnically, you can be a Kurd, Armenian or whatever but if you are a citizen of this country you are a Turk. You can call yourself an Armenian Turk but it is different from being an Armenian citizen living in Armenia. You need to serve this country. If you don't want to serve this country international laws permit immigration rights. If you feel loyal to Armenia, you are free to go and live there.

For my own part, I never thought about immigrating to the US or the UK because I never felt like serving American or British people or their intererests. I have always wanted to preserve my culture and values, and let me tell you I am very, very, very and very comfortable with a great majority of those values.

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