Quoting Trudy:

The man is born in Germany but nevertheless the judge thinks he is not German enough.

Quoting mltm:

Quoting kashmir:

If you come to germany (I am here) you will find that the Germans treat the turks more or less in the same manner a lot of white American treat blacks. It sucks. But as much as i love the turks (VERY MUCH) there are a some rotten apples that do spoil the whole bunch. As many germans do not like the turks to begin with, they will find any little excuse as to why a turk should go back to Turkey or leave their country.

Quoting mltm:

Quoting Daydreamer:

That´s unbelievable! A Pole gets double life-sentence for rape in the UK while a cold-blooded murderer gets away with 9 years? The world´s gone mad!

Quoting kashmir:

Turks are people too.

Quoting Daydreamer:

That´s unbelievable! A Pole gets double life-sentence for rape in the UK while a cold-blooded murderer gets away with 9 years? The world´s gone mad!

Quoting Astarte:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting Astarte: Quoting kashmir: Turks are people too. what a strange sentence

Quoting kashmir:

thats not correct. if he is born in germany he is german. maybe not by blood but by nationality!

Quoting kashmir:

Quoting catwoman: Quoting Astarte: Quoting kashmir: Turks are people too. what a strange sentence +1

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting kashmir: Quoting catwoman: Quoting Astarte: Quoting kashmir: Turks are people too. what a strange sentence +1 its not strange. i said it because someone said to me that they wish everyone loved turks as much as i do. and i wanted to reply why not? They are people as well. why shouldnt i love them.

Quoting kashmir:

Please forgive my bad english then. Spanish is my first language.

Quoting kashmir:

Quoting CANLI: Quoting kashmir: its not strange. i said it because someone said to me that they wish everyone loved turks as much as i do. and i wanted to reply why not? They are people as well. why shouldnt i love them. Still strange sentence,but more understandable now

Quoting CANLI:

that germans hate Turks,even they are people too.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting gezbelle:

if neither of his parents are german citizens, then it is highly likely that he isn´t a german citizen.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting CANLI:

Well,Trudy,i havent been there to judge,but what i´ve read and what i´ve heard about the Turks stiuation in Germany,can say that we reverse that sentence
Some Germans probably LİKE Turks

Quoting Elisabeth:

Boils my blood to think that this man is only getting 9 years in prison! I can´t imagine the people who are supposed to love and support you the most, would kill you because you were dating a guy before you were divorced. What a bunch of crap! This man needs to be brought to justice by a crowd of angry women!

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting Daydreamer:

I don´t think German courts can banish German citizens so most probably that guy didn´t have the citizenship (in most EU countries you can´t get it by birth, otherwise the number of immigrants would exceed the number of EU nationals by far).

Quoting Elisabeth:

I still think he needs angry mob therapy!

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Cacık:

We are often too quick to assume that all Germans/Greeks hates Turks when really it is not the case. Having one or two friends who had a bad experience there cannot really give judgement to an entire nation.

Quoting catwoman:

but they still may dislike them as a group because of some legitimate reasons, like the fact that Turkish people live in isolated communities, do not integrate, many do not even speak German.

Quoting teaschip:

This also goes for outsourcing that many companies do here in the U.S. Do you know how frustrating it is to call a company and get a call center in India instead?

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Go to the resorts of Turkey and Spain and I am sure you will find "little Englands" and "little Germanys" where people are doing the same.

Quoting CANLI:

And i didnt hear or read other wise
İ didnt hear that german are happy Turks are living there,i didnt read Turks stiuations are good there,i didnt hear nor read such

But yes,i agree,there are always 2 sides to the coin...so maybe there is another one that i am not aware of.

Quoting Trudy:

Sorry to say, but probably you don´t read enough newspapers or the ones you read are very biased.

I know enough situations of perfectly living together, of Turks who have success in their new country.

Quoting libralady:

In response to the initial post, I have first hand anecdotal experience about Turks in Germany from an organisation in Hamburg who have put programmes into place to assist Turks who live there, whom I have worked with.

Now who´s responsibility is it to ensure that Turks learn German? Considering these Turks were invited to Germany in the 1960 to perfom jobs that most Germans would not do, then surely it is the responsibility of the German government to ensure that these people have access to German classes and they have assistance to integrate.

Now you have 2nd and 3rd generation Turks, some of whom have very low levels of education. This does not mean they are thick. It is more to do with the fact that their parents have not learned German properly. They go to school with little or no German and therefore their education suffers because of it. Hence they cannot get into the jobs that they are probably capable of doing.

The language spoken in the home by the now 2nd and 3rd generation Turks, is known as "kitchen language" in Germany. In other words they can only speak a bit of German and they can´t speak Turkish properly either. So their conversation is limited to "kitchen conversations" causing their language skills and education levels to become lower.

That is why they adopt the enclave way of living, retaining their culture and their language.

The organisation in Hamburg has assisted many Turks through support (like a job centre) to learn German, get into decent jobs or start their own businesses and there are some very successful stories to come from this. But funds are limited with the funding for this project coming from European Social Fund.

It is OK for us to say they should get up of their arses and do something for themselves, well many have tried - some have succeeded and others have failed.

Quoting Trudy:

And to Canli: if someone would dare to say that muslims are terrorists because of the attacks in Casablanca, London, Madrid and New York (plus some other events), you - yes you - would get furious and say that not all muslims are like these madmen. And you would be right in that opinion.

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting doudi94:

always the topic on these threads goes from smthg to the other i almost forgot what the article said coz of all these things.lol!!!

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting CANLI:

Then you also dont deny that they are having hard situations there ,yes?!

Quoting Daydreamer:

I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault.

The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation.

Quoting Daydreamer:

I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault.

The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation.

Quoting tamikidakika:

many Turks face job discrimination in Germany. I know many educated Turks are not employed in higher positions no matter what their qualifications are. and you`re still saying that the country gives them equal chances.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting Daydreamer:

You´re right Handsom, they are less employable, that´s why 90% of doctors in my hospital are black/Indian. Poor them, have to do such low-paid jobs and cannot benefit from their education (not to mention the fact that their English is quite bad at times)

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting SuiGeneris:

Isnt it simply creating a class?

how good is it to send indians to the where british wouldnt like to go?

Quoting Daydreamer:

I´m really sorry to hear you have to live in such a terrible and discriminatory country, Handsom.
......
AE, you´re right about native English speakers being worst to force to learn a foreign language

Quoting thehandsom:

sometimes when I hear all these moans about ´immigrants not learning language enough or they are not good enough, they are not trying hard enough blahs´ I always think that there is this arrogance which in my view, coming from Europe´s colonialist times.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting kashmir:

I kinda have to disagree a bit about the coment of english speakers. we are not all the same. i learned english and i have to use it every day where i work. i am in another country not mine. i am learning 2 languages right now. its not easy but i do it. i am learning german becaus ei live in germany and i am learning turkish because there are so many turks here and also because i want to visit turkey one day and make many more turkish friends and enjoy everything with an understanding of what is going on/ being said around me. Generalizing that english speakers are stuck in a mind set from colonialistic times forcing others to learn english isnt entirely correct. i learned english because i knew it would get me places and it has.

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Daydreamer, those Indian Doctors you complain about are considered forgotten heroes and are said to have saved the NHS in the 1960s.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/timeshift/raj.shtml

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

All your posts complaining about immigrants not learning to speak English AMAZE ME!

Don´t you know that English speaking countries are the worst when it comes to learning languages - even when they reside in that said country?

A great example is in the link attached about Americans living in Mexico. I could find thousands of similar examples regarding English people in Spain.

Stop being so hypocritical!

http://www.expatfocus.com/whats-wrong-with-us-in-mexico

Quoting catwoman:

This has nothing to do with the topic. It is not about being hypocritical, the Americans in Mexico will be brushed with the same brush. Do you know that you are comparing apples to oranges?

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

All your posts complaining about immigrants not learning to speak English AMAZE ME!

Don´t you know that English speaking countries are the worst when it comes to learning languages - even when they reside in that said country?

A great example is in the link attached about Americans living in Mexico. I could find thousands of similar examples regarding English people in Spain.

Stop being so hypocritical!

http://www.expatfocus.com/whats-wrong-with-us-in-mexico

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting teaschip:

Quoting Trudy: Quoting Daydreamer: I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault. The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation. Exactly! Great post, Daydreamer. And for those who find it hard to believe that there is something like own responsibility, I´ll give an example: in my class I have a man from Afghanistan, now in the country for 10 years. He claims to have university education in his own country, that he was an English teacher overthere, though he hardly speaks any English. He´s been in my class for 3,5 years now (during working hours, paid by his boss!) and he still cannot say a simple sentence without mistakes. When I ask him if he reads newspapers, watches tv in Dutch or go to the library, he says no. No time he says and no interest, he watches Arab tv by satellite. Still, he accuses the government of his poverty (he has 8 children! - and gets quite some child support) but any effort made by himself has not been made to improve his circumstances. He only thinks he´s a victim of the Taliban and that because he´s a refugee the government should pamper him. Well, I disagree with that. And I think there are many more cases like that, in any country so also in Germany.

Quoting ciko:

Quoting teaschip: Quoting Trudy: Quoting Daydreamer: I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault. The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation. Exactly! Great post, Daydreamer. And for those who find it hard to believe that there is something like own responsibility, I´ll give an example: in my class I have a man from Afghanistan, now in the country for 10 years. He claims to have university education in his own country, that he was an English teacher overthere, though he hardly speaks any English. He´s been in my class for 3,5 years now (during working hours, paid by his boss!) and he still cannot say a simple sentence without mistakes. When I ask him if he reads newspapers, watches tv in Dutch or go to the library, he says no. No time he says and no interest, he watches Arab tv by satellite. Still, he accuses the government of his poverty (he has 8 children! - and gets quite some child support) but any effort made by himself has not been made to improve his circumstances. He only thinks he´s a victim of the Taliban and that because he´s a refugee the government should pamper him. Well, I disagree with that. And I think there are many more cases like that, in any country so also in Germany. Great posts by the two of you...

Quoting thehandsom:

Quote:

Quoting ciko:

Crap and fascist posts by the three of you...

Quoting kashmir:

AND ANOTHER THING. Honor Killing? whats up with that? we are not living in mid-eval times. I love my Muslim brothers very much, with all my heart but this is something that i dont agree on. Its very un civilized if you ask me.

Quoting libralady:

Quoting ciko: Quoting teaschip: Quoting Trudy: Quoting Daydreamer: I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault. The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation. Exactly! Great post, Daydreamer. And for those who find it hard to believe that there is something like own responsibility, I´ll give an example: in my class I have a man from Afghanistan, now in the country for 10 years. He claims to have university education in his own country, that he was an English teacher overthere, though he hardly speaks any English. He´s been in my class for 3,5 years now (during working hours, paid by his boss!) and he still cannot say a simple sentence without mistakes. When I ask him if he reads newspapers, watches tv in Dutch or go to the library, he says no. No time he says and no interest, he watches Arab tv by satellite. Still, he accuses the government of his poverty (he has 8 children! - and gets quite some child support) but any effort made by himself has not been made to improve his circumstances. He only thinks he´s a victim of the Taliban and that because he´s a refugee the government should pamper him. Well, I disagree with that. And I think there are many more cases like that, in any country so also in Germany. Great posts by the two of you... Crap and fascist posts by the three of you...

Quoting Queent:

The Honor Killing doesn´t belong to Islam. It is just a tradition which has no relation with the religion.

Quoting ciko:

well sorry, i cant spend my time arguing with people who does not know about economical role of emigration for developed countries. they first have to look at some books and search about it instead of talking nonsense about such an important subject.

Quoting Trudy:

And that makes us fascists? Maybe you should learn first what fascism means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting ciko:

well i dont need to look at the link to know what it means trudy. what you and your dear friends wrote in your posts were fascist for me. fascism or such things are relative concepts. not like 2+2=4..anyway i reccomend you to read some books about 60s and 70s economy instead of stupid wikipedia.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting teaschip:

Believe me Trudy, what you say is very logical. Most people believe this.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting Trudy:

Wheren´t you the one who said it is ridiculous that expacts don´t speak the local language? Correct me if I´m wrong. And what´s the difference between expecting expacts to adjust (which I support very much) and other immigrants? Is that fascist? Please explain.

Quoting AEnigmamagnadea:

Quoting CANLI:

Ok,my two pennies,
İ think,if im going to live in a different country,so yes,of course i will learn its language,for nothing but at least for myself,so i can manage my life there dont feel isolated,and dont depend on anyone too.
At least for my own security,safty...ect i must understand what is going on arround me by myself.

Will am i going to change to adapt to the culture as you say,so,no i guess not,if that means i TOTALLY forget who am i,my being,my roots,my traditions...ect so DEFİNİTELY NOPE

But,if that means,i will open my mind,and eyes,and see the new environment im in,and pick what suits me,and apply it to my life,and what doesnt i reject it,and accepted,that people are different,so i take them,accept them as they are,and expect them to do same also with me by all means...then YES,i will DEFİNİTELY do that.

But what if i do that,and the socity there reject me for nothing but,im not EXACTLY same...because im different ?!
İ guess that is mainly the stiuation with Turks in German.

Quoting ciko:

Crap and fascist posts by the three of you...

Quoting ciko:

well sorry, i cant spend my time arguing with people who does not know about economical role of emigration for developed countries. they first have to look at some books and search about it instead of talking nonsense about such an important subject.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting teaschip:

Has anyone forgotten the "library". My father learned to paint, learn autcad and to repair a car by simply going to the library. The best thing about a library is that it´s 100% free.

I do think if the government is involved with bringing people into their country they should find resources for them. However, I also believe an effort needs to be made by the individual as well to learn what they can. I´m not saying you should be able to speak fluently within a years time.

If my company ASKED me to go to Turkey for several years to work and they knew I didn´t speak Turkish, I myself would take the initiative to learn. If I was REQUIRED by my company then I would expect them to take on more responsiblity.

Quoting libralady:

There is a difference here. Germany invited the Turks therefore should have provided some assistance to learn the language, and to help those who came to integrate. From my experience this was not the case.

The same has happen in England, migrant are more or less expected to come and fill the labour shortage gaps and low and behold they (the Government) withdraw funding for ESOL. So the migrant on a low income cannot afford to pay for language classes. How you can say demand I am not sure, someone has to pay for the classes, they are not free, and they are not always easy to access. Not everyone has access to computers or further education colleges. Books are not cheap, and the low earning jobs are usually long hours, leaving little time for study.

I agree that effort has to be made on the part of the migrant, but if someone chooses to go to a country then they should be the ones to make the effort to learn the language.

Migration is an economic solution to a country´s labour shortage problem, and migrants fill those jobs that the idigenous workforce are not interested in. In the UK it is agriculture and hospitality and I guess much the same for other European countries. In London 60% of all hospitality workers are not of British origin. Low pay, cold, wet, long hours, unsociable hours, poor conditions etc etc

It is a far more complex situation than is being discussed or argued about here.

Quoting tamikidakika:

thousands of foreign employees come to Turkey every year for job, but they hardly have an incentive to learn the language. The place where I live in Turkey has an high population of foreign professionals and expats. You can see lots of people speaking foreign language in the street there, but I hardly see them speaking Turkish. They usually learn just a couple of words to cope with the common everyday tasks like getting groceries or asking for directions, but thats all.

I also know people who try hard to learn the language. two of them were my English and math teachers when I was in highschool and their Turkish was splendid.

But the majority of foreign people especially those who come from the western countries to Turkey are just like what I described.

Quoting catwoman:

So this is comparable to people who were born in a country, live in it their whole lives and still can´t speak the country´s language?

Quoting tamikidakika:

I was commenting on teaschip post. who are these people you`re mentioning about btw. That sounds like a silly exaggeration to me.

Quote:

The same has happen in England, migrant are more or less expected to come and fill the labour shortage gaps and low and behold they (the Government) withdraw funding for ESOL. So the migrant on a low income cannot afford to pay for language classes. How you can say demand I am not sure, someone has to pay for the classes, they are not free, and they are not always easy to access. Not everyone has access to computers or further education colleges. Books are not cheap, and the low earning jobs are usually long hours, leaving little time for study.

Quoting Cacık:

Well, I have to disagree that this is common across the UK. The colleges I work with still provide free ESOL because they must according to government rulings.

What about the library - books, computers, and more are free of charge. Many many towns and cities have public libraries with full time staff on hand to help.

The UK has a super adult education system where many of the cities or towns secondary schools open in the evening from 7pm to 9pm and provide often about 200 courses at each centre and hundreds of thousands across the UK, anything ranging from any language courses, gardening programmes, accountancy & auditing, English language, literature music, trampolining, wood work, cooking, computer programme, microsoft programmes teaching etc... and very often 1 term being September to December or Januay to May are about 40 or 50 pounds for the whole term. That is not expensive. Click through the links and see what types of courses are available. Thousands!

UK Adult Education

I know quite a few Turkish people working in the UK earning 6 pounds per hour in hospitality. Of the many I know, I have not yet met one who is actually on minimum salary. OK 6 pounds per hour may not be much but it is still not minimum salary and is still more that benefits.

There is no excuse for racism by English folk against others, but there are many cases where newcomers do not and refuse to integrate because they don´t think they should have to - it is still no excuse for racism.

I think there are those who take their opportunities to integrate and make use of opportunities and there are those who can´t be bothered too. I also don´t think this will change! But I don´t think it is fair to say their difficulties are across the board and immigrants are having such an awful time!

As Tamik said - exactly the same can be said for the Brits who don´t bother to learn Turkish who live here. They stay in groups and communities particularly in the south and aegean coastal regions. It is not a good representation of the Brits and those Brits who do genuinely try to integrate very hard. But again not all Brits are the same!

No nationalities, ethnic group or immigrant are the same. But I won´t say that all are victims, this is just not true. You can only ring the "I´m a victim bell" for so long and that goes for any group, any where.

Quoting tamikidakika:

thousands of foreign employees come to Turkey every year for job, but they hardly have an incentive to learn the language. The place where I live in Turkey has an high population of foreign professionals and expats. You can see lots of people speaking foreign language in the street there, but I hardly see them speaking Turkish. They usually learn just a couple of words to cope with the common everyday tasks like getting groceries or asking for directions, but thats all.

I also know people who try hard to learn the language. two of them were my English and math teachers when I was in highschool and their Turkish was splendid.

But the majority of foreign people especially those who come from the western countries to Turkey are just like what I described.

Quoting Cacık:

Quoting libralady:

I agree with what you are saying, and I am not defending those who can´t be bothered to learn the host language, but believe me, things are not quite as you put it and there are many factors involved. Firstly you have to be able to get to a library and college!

And I can provide you with reports on how migrant workers are abused, just look at the TUC or UCATT websites or Joseph Rowntree, IPPR etc etc. I belong to a Vulnerable Workers forum, of which migrants are included, and I can confirm some workers go home with no pay after paying the unscrupulous boss (usually agencies) for housing, transport, food, clothing, and anything else they can conjure up.

I am also on ESOL development groups, but those classes will not be free.

Another factor, our bosses are keen to take on migrants but are not so keen when it comes to assisting them in integration.