http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=62219

calislar was found not guilty of article 301..

Turkey really needs to get rid of this law altogether. I'm happy they decided on not "guilty".

we all Turkish people want to be most democratical country of world sure,but thats a real a country has to defence itself against to political attacks,otherwise how can a country survive it's exist??

MrX67, is THIS more of a threat to the existence of Turkish Republic or to democracy and freedom of speech:

"The passage that landed Çalışlar in court quotes a witness as saying how Atatürk, facing an armed attack by political opponent Topal Osman put on a chador to disguise himself as a woman to flee the presidential palace in Ankara."

It's absolutely ridiculous and contradictory for a country that claims to be democratic to put people to jail or in front of the court for such things.

exactly catwoman. As was the lawsuit against Orhan Pamuk.

It's sad to see but other countries don't take the republic of Turkey seriously because of these kind of episodes.

sure noone never can't defence to limiting speech and thinking freedom,but big things starts with the discuising little things,and i feel theres a big attack on Turkey with the different reasons,and all countries has self determinism right,we all watching middle east with big sadness what happened on there after some countries tried to teach and take there democracy..

i believe that democracy teachers couldn't pass democracy exam on the last events...

sorry if i really hurt you,but i just trying to talk realities of life,and my mean wasn't you in personal,my mean was the contradictions of democracy and the countries who thinks theirself more democratical then others,pls forgive me if i upset you by don't be aware of that

its easy to see who is turkish and who is not turkish. And azade please try not talk about the things that you dont know such as orhan pamuk.

You can talk about France and the country who is talking about "thinking / speaking / writing freely"(France) and the countries who say " if you dont accept armenian genocide / if you deny armenian genocide / if you say somthing against armenian genocide / if you write something against armanian genocide you ll go to jail "(yes its also France and yes France has article 301) and think about the countries - sometimes why they dont take each other serious - ..and dont forget that if there is a problem between armania and Turkey its between armenia and Turkey.. there is no France or America or any other country. And if you dont know anything about this you cant say "Turkey is guilty."

Same for iraq. if there is a problem there. iraqian people can solve it. if you're fighting with your boy friend.. would you solve it yourself or would you wait for me to kill him ?

by the way i dont have any problem with France. just want to show you something if you can understand.

I like this forum, now we are talking! But I thought we are not supposed to talk political stuff here?! Anyways, my best friend is turkish living in the US like 8 years. I know he like i've noticed most Turks Love Attaturk. And to say anything bad is really serious. I also find amusing how he becomes shocked whenever an american Attacks President Bush. I see in this forum people defending this law in turkey which is supposed to preserve the state, which for me as an american find it would do the opposite. Free speech allows a government to correct itself. These last few years many around the world have been witness to a kind of fall of american prestige, but free speech will however adjust the government and turn its policies back on to a proper track.

:"Dertini söylemeyen saklayan derman bulamaz"
:"Those who cant hide or tell the problem ,cant find a remedy"

Wow what an argumentative forum!
People are entitled to an opinion whether they no little or alot about the situation they are talking about!

God this is how we learn and make our beliefs stonger is it not?! If we believe in something then what gives people the right to tell us not to and tell us how and what to believe in?
Are we forgetting how some of the most beautiful religions came alive into our hearts? Islam as one of the most best examples, was it not for the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who stuck by Allah in believing in Islam not matter what how he was threatened?

You may think im changing the subject but im not (and if I was it would be a TC tradition anyhow ) im just saying give people the freedom to have there views, opinions and beliefs.

Peace to all

Every democratic government cannot be run the way the United States of America is run. Consider statements against Ataturk akin to flag burning in the United States. How many wasted hours have been spent in US Congress debating whether flag burning should be protected by freedom of speech. Most US politicians would pass this ban if they could.

Anyway...unless you are familiar enough with Turkey's history and delicate balance of secularism, democracy, and basically military oversight in a Islamic country, do not criticize the way its own form of democracy runs.
Everyone should worry about the politics of their own country and not be critical of others.

"I dont ask you to fight today, I ask you to die today..."

KeithL, thank you, you brought up a great point. We are sort of judging them by our own standards which of course came a long way to its current form and are based on completely different foundations. There's no way Turkey can or even should be the same way as the US or EU. Judging Turkey isn't appropriate or right, however, comments or criticism is ok I think. They don't have to be different, but maybe they'd like to hear what we think? (at least some of them ). After all they want to be part of the EU and for that some standards that are important to a democratic foundation have to be satisfied, otherwise, EU wouldn't care about Turkish laws.

I'm not telling any person on this website that they are wrong (at least not on this topic).

I am just trying to point out that every country that claims to have free speech, have taboo subjects that do apply.

In Turkey, this subject is Ataturk. And for a foreigner, unless you have educated yourself on the end of the Osmans, WWI, the War of Independence, and then on Mustafa Kemal himself as a man and a leader before he became Ataturk, I can see why it might be difficult to understand the strong feelings the nation has for this man.

But again, I can find instances in other countries where free speech is not absolute.
In the US, flag burning raises anger as much as any issue I can think of.
In Germany, it is against the law to display the swastika.
In all of Europe, it is against the law to minimize the holocaust.
These are all actions that take away from ones right of absolute free speech. But, maybe sometimes, in certain circumstances, these exceptions from free speech are justified.
In Turkey, I believe this to be the case with Ataturk.

One should be cautious when talking about other's sensitive feelings, or about some issues unless s/he is well informed concerning an issues other than having some hearsay things. For istance:

Some years ago a Greek cypriot was shot dead by a Turkish soldier while he was trying to remove the Turkish flag from its post. The flag post was, of course, on the Turkish side. Some said that it wasnt worth for just a piece of cloth without knowing what the national flag means to the Turkish. The people who said it wasnt worth have their flags' design on their panties or shorts (we dont look down to them. It is their flag in the end). We have our flag above our heads or on our hearts. Every single Turkish soldier does the same thing if anyone dare to touch our flag with ill-intention.

After the independence of İzmir some tried to burn the Greek flag, but Atatürk prevented them from doing that and told them they were wrong. We respect other nations's flags as much as we respect ours.

Another example: we believe Hz İsa (Jesus Christ)in a diffrent way any Christian does (Believing the prophets is one of the pillars of faith in Islam). But we don't discuss the way s/he believes, or never say,or let anyone say anyting unacceptable about Jesus Christ.

One more example: when you are in India you can't touch a cow lying on your way. You can't tell any Indian it is just an animal.

I don't think it is not that true for anyone to talk about some sensitive feelings of others as s/he wishes unless s/he has any idea about them. And it shouldn't be called freedom of speech. One's freedom ends where the other's starts.

PS I am not refering to the article 301, which is the subject of the thread.

Qdemir, so I'm curious what is - according to you - an appropriate way to share opinions or to express negative criticism about issues that are controversial? Because I was thinking that it's really impossible for 100% of the population to have exactly the same opinion on a topic and those differences should also be respected and not repressed and punished.

I respect your values and religion, but when things that are universally considered to be wrong, come out of your religion or love for your country, then I think you need to get off your pedestal and lower your sensitivity level and accept that something is wrong with the things you sanction.

So this person who wrote the book about Ataturk, was also Turkish, she just happened to have a different opinion on some topics. My question is - why can't you respect HER opinions although you request respect for yours? The moment someone doesn't agree with you, he/she is insensitive and disrespectful?
Yes, Ataturk is a big thing in Turkey, after all his face is practically everywhere. He did some amazing things, but he wasn't perfect either. Why is it wrong according you to admit that? Why is it so bad to say that he did some great things and some bad things? (which is the truth). Things aren't always black or white, good or bad, but people sometimes need to get rid of their pride to realize that.

I dont wanna join this discussion because I have no information about it all and Im tired of being unable to discuss. KeithL made a great point and Catwoman's reply reflects my meaning too. If we have a certain point of view due to backgrounds, this point of view may be wrong in a situtation that is not like ours. This is exactly why we need to discuss, not just to critisize other points of view and other systems, also to learn about our own system better.

Anyway, as I dont really know anything about it this might sound rude and I dont mean it that way, Im trying to learn something here so please dont get me wrong.. but after I read the article.. I wonder what bad was said about Atatürk? The article gives the following reason

'The passage that landed Çalışlar in court quotes a witness as saying how Atatürk, facing an armed attack by political opponent Topal Osman put on a chador to disguise himself as a woman to flee the presidential palace in Ankara'


If you ask me that is very smart?

i will start to topic with asking a question...

how many of you here talking knows about the law 301?
if you havent read it before now i am posting it here:

"Türklüğü, Cumhuriyeti, Devletin kurum ve organlarını aşağılama

MADDE 301. - (1) Türklüğü, Cumhuriyeti veya Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisini alenen aşağılayan kişi, altı aydan üç yıla kadar hapis cezası ile cezalandırılır.

The person who insults being Turk, The Republic or the Turkish Grand National Assembly directly/clearly/openly, is senteced to imprisonment from 6 months to 3 years

(2) Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Hükûmetini, Devletin yargı organlarını, askerî veya emniyet teşkilatını alenen aşağılayan kişi, altı aydan iki yıla kadar hapis cezası ile cezalandırılır.

the person who insults government of Turkish Republic, the justice branches of governmet, military or the police orginzation openly/directly/clearly is sentenced to imprisonment from 6 months to 3 years

(3) Türklüğü aşağılamanın yabancı bir ülkede bir Türk vatandaşı tarafından işlenmesi hâlinde, verilecek ceza üçte bir oranında artırılır.

"here it says if it is done in abroad by a Turkish citizen that person gets ban 3 times more"

(4) Eleştiri amacıyla yapılan düşÃ¼nce açıklamaları suç oluşturmaz.

the thought expressions done with the mean of critisim doesnt mean a crime or sth like that...
"

now sueing somebody because of the things he or she write on somewhere doesnt mean that Turkey doesnt have a freedom of speech...

i hope this clear sth in your minds...

and i will congragulate KeithL here even if he is a foreigner his mentioning the impression he gives to the army about an "Independence War"...

are foreigners also subject to these laws?..as in if a foreigner insults turkey are they also in breach of the article..or just turkish people?.sorry im askinga a silly question..

SuiGeneris, the problem some countries have with law 301 is that it's vague and allows the government to convict for anything they want. An example of this is the fact that before EU put pressure on Turkey because of this law, very minor incidents were punished, but after that point even O. Pamuk wasn't convicted (despite the tremendous pressure from the society).

SuiGeneris posts made it rather clear to me. The difference btween insult and critisizm can be very hard to realize sometimes though, and that is where Catwoman is right. Sometimes its too vague (and that is a way law can be bended for both good and bad purposes).

I am having an inner discussion with myself now. I would never insult someone, let me say this in the first place.
But if İ would publiclaly compare Atatürk to Adolf Hitler (someting I would never do because I think its a false comparison), is that insulting or is that criticism? And even be it insulting, is it worth to loose years of your life with?

It reminds me the discussion about 'making fun of someones name'. That has nothing to do with the making fun itself, it has to do with the way the person responds to it. If someone I dont know insults me, I might be offended for a bit because Im not treated as Im worth, but.. what do I care anyway? I know what I am worth and the people I love know what Im worth? Let them make fun of my name and I will laugh with them. Let ones I dont know insult me, and I wont care. Let them criticise me and I will think with them.

I am offering a-ten-minute cease-fire. The thread has turned out be a battle area in which stray bullets are flying. Let's just take a deep breath.

No, I wasn't refering to anyting, deli_kızın.

However, nobody is forced to read any thread, or participate in any argument on here. It's therefore unnecessary generaling all the members or the whole site.
And also nobody is forced to log in the site. If you mind reading any thread, just do it, and if you mind participating in any argument and replying any person, just do it. If you do not mind, just leave it.

For istance: I like arguing with catwoman and I do. I dont know if she also likes having argument with me. Do you, catwoman

On the other hand I never mind reading some posts by some people ,let alone reply them.

İ keep reading and reading all those posts and i don't find the problem till now !

There is something i learnt,and i found it it really leads to a good understanding. 'my man taught it to me '

Why don't all of you before posting or before attacking i must say,why don't you put yourself in the other one shoes ?!

Here we have 2 sides,West,and Türkiye,or maybe that goes for all the East too,but here we are talking about Türkiye.

İn the West people have been hearing and watching their Media,and know Türkiye,or hear about it from there.

So it is a life time for them.

Maybe some come here to understand,maybe some come to attack,that is irrelevant,in the end,they only know what they have heard.

You,Turkish people i mean,love your country,you have your own way of thinking,of believes,which they don't understand.

So isn't it part of loving your country to explain your view to those people ?

Maybe some will accept,maybe some will understand,and even those who doesn't accept,maybe they will stop attacking because they understood you have a piont,and it is your right to be different.

İsn't it part from your love to your country to let people understand that those point of view coming from a great history,not a shallow one?

Whether anyone likes or not,history form people characters,form nations characters.

İts not some nice,or sad stories written in a book.

İts a life of whole nation.

So if you say don't post,don't talk,don't ask ,so tell me.

You are leaving them to their Media to say and convince them by what they want,wheather its right or wrong ?

İs this part of loving your country ?

And in the end,they come and say you can buy camels in Türkiye,and you get mad about it ?

Why ? you were the one who is holding your knowledge back from them .

Of course you can buy camels in Türkiye,as you can buy horses in UK too,but that doesn't mean people ride horses in the streets in UK,or riding camels in Türkiye .

And for those who feel Turkish are aggressive.

You too put yourselves in their shoes,all they hear from the West only criticism.

For their way of living,for their thoughts,for their traditions,for their religions.
You just don't accept what is different from you,and they won't change their thought,their traditions,their character just to please the West,and that is their right too.
İ didn't see West changed to please the East,did they ?
Or its matter of power ?

Of course i don't mean all you in the West,but to honest, the majority.

They just fed up,and you really cann't blame them.

Put yourself in each other shoes,and you will get good communication,good understanding.
And accept each other.

İ say this,and i rest my case,enjoy

Ps: How wise you are my love
Bismellah maşallah

"democracy is really cool when it is for me only."

canli,
u talk too much about shoes, but nothin. what u brought to this discussion is just super neutral colorless useless words very usual to european pacifists.
i havent noticed any western attacking turks in this forum. learn to differ the words (there is a difference between critisism, discussion, arguement and attack) and learn to use proper words, dear. the word attack is so much used by some people, cos they take everything as an attack or insult (thats how actually behave children or immature grown ups)
the only person who attacks them is me. unfortunately europeans have very little knowledge on history and can bring really very little in here and often talk just rubbish. they simply have no arguements but they strangely join the discussion, i donno for what purpose.
this is the clash of the west and east simply. and very simply the westerners cant be in the shoes of proud easterners and easterners cant be in the shoes of western ignorants.
btw, talking about shoes, i myself am from the east, and i know well (too well) of the mentality. i know what it is to live totally brainwashed in the illusion of false propaganda.
its just a matter of becoming an individual and start using your own brain. a matter of choice to stay without no change or do smth about your own viewpoints developing them.

canli, you advise turks not to change? to stick to the old feudalistic customs and traditions? very odd! very unwise!
the person who doesnt interact, communicate or learn from others becomes a complete idiot whos very limited and awkward in relationships. it is the same with a nation (any nation, dont wanna give a reason to turks to use this as an attack as usual). the more you are closed and isolated and stuck with your own behavour the more emotional and social cripple you are!

I agree with Elisa on her point. But I think some here are critical about Turkey's position on these matters.

femme_fatal,

Thank you for enlightening me,that was very thoughtful of you .

And among the words that i should know its diffences ,is insult.
There is much difference between insult and attack.
İ don't need to wait to be insulted so then i consider this attack!
As i see,and from my point of view,attacking is a wide word contains disapproval and criticism too.

And if you didn't see those in this thread,so i'm sorry,i cann't do anything about it,but i did see it.

Maybe because me too,is some emotional,proud,brain washed Eastern !

False propaganda,brainwashed ,illusion ??!!!

İ'm sorry,but i really don't know what you are talking about.

15,20 years ago,i would have agreed with you on such terms,but now ?!!!

The only illusion exist in any country,is the one man doing for himself.

İf you have false propaganda,there are always satellites,Net,lots and many things would make you contact to the outside world.

İf you chose not,then its your own fault.
The world had become a small vellage,who want can know what is going in the other side,not to mention what is going inside too.

But note that,i said who wants.

And i adviced Turks of what ?!
İf you read my post,you can see exactly what i said.

But coming to that,first,i don't think Turk need any advice,because they have eyes,ears,brains just like others,and can see ,read and learn from their experinces and from others too,and decide what is good for them better than anyone else.

Second,yes,i really hope from my heart they don't lose their traditions,and customs too.

İf you follow what is happening in other West communities,you would understand what is the importance of traditions.

Of course there would be some re-evaluation to them,and only Turks can do it,not have it made for them!

And at the end,coming to the brain washed part,you know a TV news channel called Al-Gizera ?
Of course you must know it.
This channel has extended its waves,or whatever they call it,so it can reach till the USA,and they can watch it there.

You want to guess what have USA done ?

Now,talk about Eastern brain washing !

i think some of friends thinking theirself very intellectual with their rich book collection???but i saw main of em who has a very shallow life perspective back of crowdede books...you can read many books,but thats not easy to get whats goin life with the words of others,so its better to catch realities with ur own without reading any line..

canli, we are talking about turkey not usa and right now i dont wanna talk of usa and al-jazira (btw, congratulations on its extension!). it ll be sort of a off topic, some people hate off topics.
its my personal conclusion that when u release urself from the jail of traditions and start breathing fully with your lungs u become healthier, the air freshens up your blood circullation and bring more oxygen to your brain but when you are overloaded with all the customs and tradiotions you simply cant freely go ahead. have u seen those who lack the air? they say it became darker in their eyes.
probably the tradition makes you feel safe, your ancestors lived with it and you also live within the scheme. nothing new, no change, no innovation, no searching for new styles.

talking about the western countries that lost their traditions, it is very simple, since western countries hosted many many other nationalities, it became multi-cultural, it became impossible to keep people to the local traditions, so they got mixed up. actually, western slowly becomes eastern due to the strong traditional eastern immigrants.

hey, canli, thank you very much for your compliments.

Ok femme,
3 things here,

First,talking about USA,was same as this topic of the thread,but even deeper.
At least Türkiye got a law about it,but USA is preventing from hearing others point of view other than its own
So much for a democratic country , huh ?

Second,why you're feeling traditions and customs is like a jail ?
Why don't you see them as something coming from your own believes too,therefor,you can breath fresh air inside them too.
İts not a matter of being safe inside them,its a matter of organizing,system we believe in.
İf you are thinking this way,then that goes for all rules too which is rulling the countries.
Because traditions are just unwritten rules,an laws.
So if you want to free yourself from the rules dear,the world will become a jungle.

And that is one of the reasons USA and UK calaiming not drawing back from İraq,because there its like a jungle

All leads to everything dear,as i said before,it become a small vellage.

Third,i don't agree with you about the reason that the Western countries losing their traditions is the immigration of peoples from other countries.
Of course immigration has a big effect,but have a great effect in adding to traditions,not in lose them.
And if you watch the American society,it contains lots of nationalities,Chines,İtalians,Easterns,and all are keeping their traditions.
Except the Westerns,because they lost it,the reason ?
İ don't know,but i guess it was some thought same as you say,to breath fresh air !

And thx about your congrates,although its not mine,its arabian channel,i'm Egyptian

Btw,where are you from ?

Merhaba!
Before going on with this topic, I think few clarifications are necessary.
First, talknig about liberties/rights we should differentiatiate between:
negative liberty/negative rights (defined as the individual`s liberty from being subjected to the authority of others, the area of personal freedom others should refrain interfering with), meaning;he right to life, to liberty, to the security of person (Helvetius says that: "the free man is the man who is not in irons, nor imprisoned in a gaol, nor terrorized like a slave by the fear of punishment.....it is not lack of freedom not to fly like an eagle or swim like a whale")
and
positive liberty/ positive rights (defined as the freedom of the individual to achieve certian goals), meaning: the right to education, to health care, social security etc
It is all about the ratio between the state and the individual and the relation between individuals and about the state role of preserving the negative liberty of the individuals.

On the other hand, when talking about what I/ you/ he/ she...give value to and respect, I think one should bear in mind that we are living in a multicultural world and before judging/ expressing a personal opinion, one should try to make an exercise of understanding the"other" fist.

As for the permanent "fight" for being right, remember that Socrates himself used to assert: "all I know is that I know nothing".

i think too many people confuse tradition and cultures with religion..they are not the same thing..

I fail to understand what this -13 pages long- fuss is all about .Is it just me, or does the article say that she ACQUITTED.
Anyone can sue anyone ,only the final decision of the court matters.So,some prosecuter may have brought him before justice by misinterpreting this new law , but 301 clearly states that this law cannot be applied when critisism is involved.And they both aquitted.So,where's the problem?
Its amazes me how some of you exagerated it to the point of claiming that noones allowed to critisize governments in Turkey.None of you ever read any turkish paper or watch turkish tv's???Looks like only KeithL does.You would be surprised by the amount and harshness of the critisism governments get here.
Besides,Turkish higher court (yargitay) have decisions, that are binding for all courts btw, in which it states that even if critisim against government members is deregatory or humiliating it cannot be evaluated as criminal act and that politicians have to deal with it.

There are similar laws in MANY other European countries and people DO get sentenced to 3 years prison for expressing their oposing views on holocoust, like the 68 year old historian David Irving.
Yet EU press keeps presenting the 'ordeal of Pamuk ' of having to attend a court meeting and acquitting, as the human rights violation of the century.Although even if he would get convicted ,he would get a 1000$ fine, at worst. (6months to 3 years in prison? Please..even murderers get out in a few years in this country.Sentences for such short periods of time get either postponed untill he comits another crime or at worst he would have to pay a fine.)But im not surprised Eu press prefers to present it that way.

As for catwomen who wrote somewhere in her post:
'The problem some countries have with law 301 is that it's vague and allows the GOVERNMENT to convict for anything they want'
Are we talking about the same country :Turkey??
Turkey is built on the principle of 'güçler ayriligi' where independent COURTS decide whom to convict NOT governments.
Thats why government gets his ass kicked by courts frequently.Especially by higher courts like 'Anayasa Mahkemesi'.

Quoting aenigma x: Quoting KeithL: Its not ironic. Ataturk purposely set it up this way. He made sure that no follower of his could take the powers he set up and lead Turkey the wrong direction. Additionally, this also assured that sympathizers of the Osmans or any other Islamic based government could not lead the country away from its secularism. The military is the protector of the people, not the protector of the politicians. Why do you think that the approval of Turkey's military and general staff is always between 95 and 99%? What other country do you know where the military is so respected by its people? Keith L – you have a strange way of arguing your point. I find increasingly that I am arguing with other members comments’, more than the issue under discussion. You ask “what other country do you know where military is so respected by its people?”. The answer is easy, any “police state”. Fascism is defended by such dedicated and respected forces too! Not a good example! Ataturk did set up the country in this way because he was changing the country radically and rightly needed to protect both his ideals and Turkey. However, I feel it has been allowed to continue for two long. Ataturk was a liberal minded, forward thinking and inventive leader who I am sure would be horrified to find that his country’s policies have remained relatively stagnant since his death (apart from the forced hand of the EU application). One of his 6 main fundamentals? REFORMISM! “Positive science is the torch held aloft by the Turkish people as it progresses on the path of civilisation.”

Aenigma,

Since you wrote ;
“what other country do you know where military is so respected by its people?”The answer is easy, any “police state”.

as a response to KeithL ,who had said that millitary is respected by turkish people, i thought you were implying that this kind of support for millitary happens only in police states.Correct me if i got it wrong.Besides i wasn't only responding to you , for you're not the only one who accuses Turkey with being millitarist or police state in the west, so i tried to explain why i think this is not the case for Turkey.
and don't worry im neither upset nor meant to upset anyone else
I just stated my oposing view on the subject.

catwomen ,
Attack? Insult?Whom?Where?
Please point out to me which part of my post you find insulting.

The military is respected by the Turkish for some other reasons; we deem it sacred. However it is an irrefutable fact that the military has an influence on the government.
Unfortunately sometimes some military members deem the respect shown by people on themselves; the stars on their shoulders, and interfere political issues, or some who consider democracy "democracy is really cool when it is for me only" try to make the military interfere politics.
Nobody is happy with such interference except some who want democracy for themselves only. They don't want Turkey to be a more democratic country.
Nevertheless it doesn't make Turkey a military or police state.

However, although some soothsayers might think such a coup might happen once more in future, it is just a wishfull thinking. Today Turkey isn't the same Turkey she used to be in the past.

I read in a newspaper that there is 50% chance that a military coup will happen in 2007. It didn't state why it should happen and I personally don't think it will either. As qdemir states, Turkey has simply changed.
Any thoughts on this?