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what is the opinion on this??
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| 50. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:18 pm |
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Quoting aenigma x:
Actually I think it is very very healthy to insult your own government. We insult ours in TV comedies, news, documentaries, books, all media. They have to answer any questions about their conduct - and rightly so! We have a situation right now where our Prime Minister has been questioned by police regarding an "honours" scam. Very very healthy... |
how you know that we are not doing that?
we have lots of speakers talks about govenrments movements and decisions etc...
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| 51. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:21 pm |
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SuiGeneris posts made it rather clear to me. The difference btween insult and critisizm can be very hard to realize sometimes though, and that is where Catwoman is right. Sometimes its too vague (and that is a way law can be bended for both good and bad purposes).
I am having an inner discussion with myself now. I would never insult someone, let me say this in the first place.
But if İ would publiclaly compare Atatürk to Adolf Hitler (someting I would never do because I think its a false comparison), is that insulting or is that criticism? And even be it insulting, is it worth to loose years of your life with?
It reminds me the discussion about 'making fun of someones name'. That has nothing to do with the making fun itself, it has to do with the way the person responds to it. If someone I dont know insults me, I might be offended for a bit because Im not treated as Im worth, but.. what do I care anyway? I know what I am worth and the people I love know what Im worth? Let them make fun of my name and I will laugh with them. Let ones I dont know insult me, and I wont care. Let them criticise me and I will think with them.
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| 52. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:21 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting aenigma x:
Actually I think it is very very healthy to insult your own government. We insult ours in TV comedies, news, documentaries, books, all media. They have to answer any questions about their conduct - and rightly so! We have a situation right now where our Prime Minister has been questioned by police regarding an "honours" scam. Very very healthy... |
how you know that we are not doing that?
we have lots of speakers talks about govenrments movements and decisions etc... |
You are contradicting yourself!! You have just told me it is an offence to insult the government etc., now you are saying "how do you know we are not doing that" ? !!!! 
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| 53. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:22 pm |
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Quoting aenigma x: Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting aenigma x:
Actually I think it is very very healthy to insult your own government. We insult ours in TV comedies, news, documentaries, books, all media. They have to answer any questions about their conduct - and rightly so! We have a situation right now where our Prime Minister has been questioned by police regarding an "honours" scam. Very very healthy... |
how you know that we are not doing that?
we have lots of speakers talks about govenrments movements and decisions etc... |
You are contradicting yourself!! You have just told me it is an offence to insult the government etc., now you are saying "how do you know we are not doing that" ? !!!! |
no he said they can criticise but not insult..its clearer to me now.i have no problem with that anyway.
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| 54. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:28 pm |
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Quote: Qdemir, so I'm curious what is - according to you - an appropriate way to share opinions or to express negative criticism about issues that are controversial? Because I was thinking that it's really impossible for 100% of the population to have exactly the same opinion on a topic and those differences should also be respected and not repressed and punished.
I respect your values and religion, but when things that are universally considered to be wrong, come out of your religion or love for your country, then I think you need to get off your pedestal and lower your sensitivity level and accept that something is wrong with the things you sanction.
So this person who wrote the book about Ataturk, was also Turkish, she just happened to have a different opinion on some topics. My question is - why can't you respect HER opinions although you request respect for yours? The moment someone doesn't agree with you, he/she is insensitive and disrespectful?
Yes, Ataturk is a big thing in Turkey, after all his face is practically everywhere. He did some amazing things, but he wasn't perfect either. Why is it wrong according you to admit that? Why is it so bad to say that he did some great things and some bad things? (which is the truth). Things aren't always black or white, good or bad, but people sometimes need to get rid of their pride to realize that.
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catwoman :  I would like to start with a smile. As far as I can see you haven't read what I was talking about properly, or have read not to understand my point of view, but just in order to ciritize me.
First, I wasnt talking about the article 301, Atatürk, or the person in question whom I dont know as I havent read that part on the thread. And I think there is nothing wrong with what you have said. I agree with you. I was just talking about a different issue. That's all.
As I have mentioned in my previous post, can you , for istance, discuss the holliness of cows with any İndian, or can you say "what stupid people you are". It is just an animal.
As for the following part in your post: "but when things that are universally considered to be wrong, come out of your religion or love for your country,"
Who identifies or decides on what is univarsal and what is not. Is it the one who has the power? And also why should I come out of my love for country,say, my flag. Which so-called universal value or truth should make me come out of my love for anyone or anything.
As for the religion part, my religion doesn't go against any truth. You will call me opinionated-minded. I am willing to inform you about my religion if you wish.
Finally as far as I can see you are talkig about respecting other's opinions. Do you think you do so for my opinions. One more question if you dont mind; do you think you appraise people or opinions about Turkey which are similar to yours.
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| 55. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:28 pm |
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Quoting aenigma x: Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting aenigma x:
Actually I think it is very very healthy to insult your own government. We insult ours in TV comedies, news, documentaries, books, all media. They have to answer any questions about their conduct - and rightly so! We have a situation right now where our Prime Minister has been questioned by police regarding an "honours" scam. Very very healthy... |
how you know that we are not doing that?
we have lots of speakers talks about govenrments movements and decisions etc... |
You are contradicting yourself!! You have just told me it is an offence to insult the government etc., now you are saying "how do you know we are not doing that" ? !!!! |
it may seem like that from there... its a crime... but to be sentenced you have to have "offence" and "defence" sides... if nobody is getting offended... you wont get punished...
isnt it called democracy?
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| 56. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:28 pm |
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Quoting catwoman:
So this person who wrote the book about Ataturk, was also Turkish, she just happened to have a different opinion on some topics. My question is - why can't you respect HER opinions although you request respect for yours? The moment someone doesn't agree with you, he/she is insensitive and disrespectful?
Yes, Ataturk is a big thing in Turkey, after all his face is practically everywhere. He did some amazing things, but he wasn't perfect either. Why is it wrong according you to admit that? Why is it so bad to say that he did some great things and some bad things? Things aren't always black or white, good or bad, but people sometimes need to get rid of their pride to realize that. |
yes that's why i dont want any foreigners to talk about this subject. Cause you cant understand us. what you cant understand is we respect her. and dont forget that our government did not find her guilty.
http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=ipek+calislar
http://www.cnnturk.com/TURKIYE/haber_detay.asp?PID=318&haberID=275250
these are turks comments.
there is nothing wrong about her. she is a great writer.. and we also sad to see her in this kind of things. You dont know what turkish people think about her and when you see this kind of news you all think that " Turks are not free / there is no democracy in Turkey " etc...
Dont post topics like this.. again and again we are discussing same subjects...
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| 57. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:31 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: it may seem like that from there... its a crime... but to be sentenced you have to have "offence" and "defence" sides... if nobody is getting offended... you wont get punished...
isnt it called democracy? |
No! Democracy is about electing an ordinary member of the public to represent YOU and YOUR country. If they do not do this job well, it is YOUR job to criticise them severely and, if necessary, insult them. If they are offended, so what? They are in a powerful position with huge responsibility. I certainly have NO misgivings about insulting Tony Blair for his decisions about Iraq, and happily insult him!!! Anyway, thanks for your clarification.
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| 58. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:31 pm |
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Quoting robyn  : Quoting aenigma x: Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting aenigma x:
Actually I think it is very very healthy to insult your own government. We insult ours in TV comedies, news, documentaries, books, all media. They have to answer any questions about their conduct - and rightly so! We have a situation right now where our Prime Minister has been questioned by police regarding an "honours" scam. Very very healthy... |
how you know that we are not doing that?
we have lots of speakers talks about govenrments movements and decisions etc... |
You are contradicting yourself!! You have just told me it is an offence to insult the government etc., now you are saying "how do you know we are not doing that" ? !!!! |
no he said they can criticise but not insult..its clearer to me now.i have no problem with that anyway. |
Yes it became clearer to me too and İ also dont have a problem with that.
Actually I think insulting is always wrong, and there is a difference between being ironic, sarcastic, critisizm, making fun of something and insulting someone.
But if you ask me it is good to have a good laugh about your own government
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| 59. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:33 pm |
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Quoting uYkuSuz: Quoting catwoman:
So this person who wrote the book about Ataturk, was also Turkish, she just happened to have a different opinion on some topics. My question is - why can't you respect HER opinions although you request respect for yours? The moment someone doesn't agree with you, he/she is insensitive and disrespectful?
Yes, Ataturk is a big thing in Turkey, after all his face is practically everywhere. He did some amazing things, but he wasn't perfect either. Why is it wrong according you to admit that? Why is it so bad to say that he did some great things and some bad things? Things aren't always black or white, good or bad, but people sometimes need to get rid of their pride to realize that. |
yes that's why i dont want any foreigners to talk about this subject. Cause you cant understand us. what you cant understand is we respect her. and dont forget that our government did not find her guilty.
http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=ipek+calislar
http://www.cnnturk.com/TURKIYE/haber_detay.asp?PID=318&haberID=275250
these are turks comments.
there is nothing about her. she is a great writer.. and we also sad to see her in this kind of things. You dont know what turkish people think about her and when you see this kind of news you all think that " Turks are not free / there is no democracy in Turkey " etc...
Dont post topics like this.. again and again we are discussing same subjects...
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uykusuz.please refrain from asking people not to post things that you dont agree with.like i said in reply to your private messages.this forum is for posting news articles,events and announcements.that is what was done,i asked people's opinions on this because i wanted to know what turkish people thought about article 301.not because i have a problem with it or anything like that.you are being very defensive about a subject that you need not be defensive about
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| 60. |
21 Dec 2006 Thu 08:38 pm |
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Quoting uYkuSuz: yes that's why i dont want any foreigners to talk about this subject. Cause you cant understand us. |
If people can't react to items YOU think they are unfamiliair with, we might as well close down this forum and go back to where we all are / came from without looking across the border (literally or in a matter of speach) ever again.
Second, maybe people DO understand you better than you think but it does not mean they have to agree with you.
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