Turkish Poetry and Literature |
|
|
|
|
|
EROTIZMA-CAN YÜCEL
|
| 190. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:42 pm |
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carracci_-_Jupiter_et_Junon.jpeg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Banquet.jpg
|
|
| 191. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 05:48 pm |
|
Quoting DR TREATMENT: Adonis, dont worry mate,,,, the twats way under my kasimpasa..... |
|
|
| 192. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:48 pm |
|
Canli, Alameda,
You missed my point, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Honour killings are associated with Islam - I wasn't debating whether or not Islam (the real one or whatever you call it) allows it. It goes without saying however, that it is Islam that is used as an excuse for it. And it's not the bad westerners who do it, but people who call themselves Muslim. I see your point that it is impossible to judge the whole community for the actions of some people, but it's not our fault that stories like that are associated with Islam mainly. There must be something wrong with it if it's not Christianity, not Buddhism but Islam that is liable. Terrorists attacks and jihad are what the world learnt about Islam. Pity as it is, whose responsibility is it to clear Islam's name? Westerners?
And again, like it's always been we heard how west oppresses women. No, it doesn't. Women don't have to take their husband's surnames, sometimes men take their wives surname. Jews? Why aren't there fierce bloody-eyed hoards of Jews in the streets of Paris demolishing cars and wounding people? Why aren't Jews organising terrorist attacks in the USA or London? True, all religions are focused around male dominance, however, in civilised countries religions come secondary to the Law. No religious oppression is justified or forgiven. Of course there are battered women. But they aren't battered because of religion but because some men are scums. The difference is that if a woman is strong enough to report it, she will be helped and the oppressor imprisoned. Nobody will tell her that it is the way things should be and it's her fate to put up with it. The same for mass murderers (they do kill men as well - I haven't heard about honour killings of an unfaithful guy) - they act against society. When they are caught, usually they end up with capital punishment. I have never heard of honour killings perpetrators being put to death for this reason. So, all in all, there are some differences you have to agree on.
As for what Canli said about atheism not being attacked, ridiculed or laughed at - well, that proves it's a pretty neat ideology, doesn't it? The reason for Islam being attacked is that there must be a reason to it. And it's not only this forum's tendency. All forums that I read have threads about Islam, and there is nobody but some Muslims who see no faults in it.
One more thing, nobody deserves respect for just breathing. I don't respect everyone and I don't expect everyone to respect me. On the contrary, if everybody respected everyone, people would be free to kill others and demand respect. If I see something that I think is unjust, illegal or threatening, I don't respect it. If there is a religion that hurts some of its believers - there's no way I respect it.
|
|
| 193. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:56 pm |
|
Quoting CANLI: Quoting Daydreamer: Canli, with all due respect. None of us - atheists feels offended if believers question his/her choice. It is exactly the opposite with you. If we ask questions about your religion and draw conclusions you don't like, you start insulting us (I don't mean "you" personally). Some members seem to have the approach saying - either admire us or get lost. This is not very fair either, is it?
I do agree some members calling themselves "free thinkers" were pushing it and acted improperly. But it is hard to stay indifferent to sites like this:
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=2378
Let me quote just a tiny fragment:
"A girl was brutally murdered by her father on suspicion of her character Monday. The father chopped the body and interred it without a proper burial ceremony.
Her alleged paramour escaped the area to save his life. The accused Pandi Jatoi used an axe to cut the body into pieces. The girl cried and tried to prove her innocence by holding the Holy Quran. The father was wanted to kill her paramour but the youth managed to flee.
On being contacted by The Post, the police expressed their ignorance about the incident. However, some sources in the police confirmed that their colleagues were deliberately concealing the matter."
When we express our disgust with a religion that allows such things to happen, you take it as an attack on Islam. I have met many Muslim in my life, some of my best friends are Muslim, and they openly admit they abhor such incidents and believe there's plenty of things to change in Islam. Here at this site, the loudest-speaking Muslims instantly tell us not to dig out the dirt in a backyard that doesn't belong to us or immediately start to talk about Inquisition. They fail to see the difference between past and now. It's easy to call us ignorants who have no right to speak about subjects we don't know. But what is there to know? A woman (more than one) died, and the religion you say to be yours allows to account for it. Don't demand that we respect a religion allowing people to kill others
It's not that we have a problem with Muslims - we don't. Personally, I don't care if you cover your head, face, toes or neck. I don't care if you pray sitting, kneeling, lying or walking. Why should I? It is your free will and choice. But I care if you tell me honour killings are good and if you justify women's submissiveness saying it's their character. It is not. It is the upbringing that limits them.
Regards |
Daydreamer,
İ wont start a discussion about religion here,nor about İslam,because actually i had enough about it here
but of course yes,i excepect you 'i dont mean you personally ' to respect my religion even if you dont agree with it
As we respect other religions too which of course we dont agree with them also,but it called mutual respect,and it should be in normal relation between people
Not just deep relations,but it should be among human
Respect me,pespect my believes,respect my ideas,my opinions, even if you dont agree with them.
As i also should do same with you..
And we both have the right to point out our disagreement too
We dont feel offended when you QUESTİON our believes too,but there is much difference between QUESTİONİNG our believes and expressing your DİSGUST of our religion !
To express you DİSGUST with my religion ,im afraid that mean you attack it yes..
Disgust is a big word,and it doesnt come with respect...so dont expect me 'not just me ,i mean Muslims' to feel its ok to accept people not respecting our religion.
İslam doesnt allow people to kill others as you indicate.
İf you want to indecate such thing,read about it,understand it,search it then make such statment.
Then we have something to talk about if you want,and if you dont,its ok too.
İn Judaism its forbidden to kill ONLY a Jewish,but its OK to kill ANY human being because to Judaism they are dogs not humans !
Do you want me to go through other religions too ?!
You want to point out how do women treated in other religions,do you want to point out how do women takes their husbands names after marriage and lose theirs ?
Do you want to talk about how women be part of the heritage after her husband's death in some religions ?
No,you just see İslam that is all,how how BAD is it,yes ?!
İ NEVER saw any complaining about this anywhere,not in TC nor even in the Media too.
But about İSLAM...ohhh boyyy what such a barbaric religion,you can read about it EVERYWHERE
When a MUSLİM man killes his daughter,then it is İSLAM fault and you feel DİSGUST of such religion, yes ?!
And you say you dont have problem with İslam or Muslims ?!
YES, we ALL can see that !
''again i dont mean you personally''
Actually,i dont have to defend my religion in anyway,its my religion,and im ok with it,and wont change it too,i dont and didnt mind debating about it tho with respect to what i believe and offering same respect to the believes of the others.
İ was refering in my statment to TC here,and how they treat some Turks,and its true im afraid,i saw it,others saw it too.
They attack their believes 'İslam' their traditions,and make jokes about it and complain if Turks didnt take it well !
Some Turk dont have a good grip of English so they cant really reply it as well as they want,and at same time they feel offended so they just leave.
And the ones who have good command of English,and they reply it,they face a union against them,either with sercasm,or with attack,so also eventually they had enough and leave too !
Do you see many Turks here much ?
Now, let me ask you something,
You are complaining about people insult atheists here at TC ?
My dear,review threads and posts,and tell me,you find any insult or attack to ANY religion or believes here at TC except to İslam ?!
Review and be fair about it.
Here at TC most Turks are Muslims,Easterns are Muslims,and most Westerns are Christians,and there are some atheists too.
You would find the only attack,insult is to İslam and no others,and at same time,Muslims dont reply by attacking the other religions back,did we ?
Point to me where did we insult Christianity or Judaism or atheistic ?
Do you want me to point out how many threads have insulted İslam ?!
No need,they are many,and already locked too,yes ?!
İ guess TC is just part of the world who has no problem with İslam or Muslims,yes ?! |
Very thoughtfully put Canli. Somehow I don't think it will be the last time you will say this as we appear to be on a roundabout. 
|
|
| 194. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 06:56 pm |
|
Daydreamer, exactly my thoughts!
+1!
|
|
| 195. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:33 pm |
|
As this forum does not allow religious discussions,(or they aren't supposed to happen here) and if we get too far into it, the thread will be locked or deleted, I suggest if this is something that really concerns you, go to a forum that does discuss Islam. You can ask questions there. Here are two such sites.
www.muslimwakeup.com/bb/index.php
www.altmuslim.com/a
Regarding women's rights in Islam, I highly recommend Dr. Riffat Hassan
http://muslim-canada.org/emory.htm
Quoting Daydreamer: Canli, Alameda,
You missed my point, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Honour killings are associated with Islam - I wasn't debating whether or not Islam (the real one or whatever you call it) allows it. It goes without saying however, that it is Islam that is used as an excuse for it. And it's not the bad westerners who do it, but people who call themselves Muslim. |
My point Daydreamer is that there is nothing in Islam that condones honor killing.
Quoting Daydreamer: I see your point that it is impossible to judge the whole community for the actions of some people, but it's not our fault that stories like that are associated with Islam mainly. There must be something wrong with it if it's not Christianity, not Buddhism but Islam that is liable. Terrorists attacks and jihad are what the world learnt about Islam. Pity as it is, whose responsibility is it to clear Islam's name? Westerners? |
Have you ever heard of propaganda? All you have to do is shine a light on whatever you want to emphasize to focus attention on it.
Honor killing for suspected indiscretions are against Islamic law....period! The fact that there are some Muslims that do it, does not make it part of the Islamic religion, but part of the cultures of those people who adopted Islam, but did not learn a lot about Islamic jurisprudence.
Quoting Daydreamer: And again, like it's always been we heard how west oppresses women. No, it doesn't. Women don't have to take their husband's surnames, sometimes men take their wives surname. |
Actually, in Islam, women have never HAD to take their husband's surnames. It is only very recently that women in the USA have been free to keep their own names, whereas in Islam, it's always been. They have had the right to own property and inherit wealth. Those rights are only recently gained for women in the West.
Quoting Daydreamer: Jews? Why aren't there fierce bloody-eyed hoards of Jews in the streets of Paris demolishing cars and wounding people? Why aren't Jews organising terrorist attacks in the USA or London? |
Well Daydreamer....that's a very long story....but suffice to say, they are occupied in Palestine/Israel now with other matters. It may be interesting to read some of the Jewish laws that have also been misinterpreted.....however the Jews have had more than their share of cultural bias, demonization and persecution.
Quoting Daydreamer: True, all religions are focused around male dominance, however, in civilised countries religions come secondary to the Law. No religious oppression is justified or forgiven. Of course there are battered women. But they aren't battered because of religion but because some men are scums. The difference is that if a woman is strong enough to report it, she will be helped and the oppressor imprisoned. Nobody will tell her that it is the way things should be and it's her fate to put up with it. |
No man in Islam has the right to beat his wife...as for Western laws...well we see just how effective restraining orders have been for battered women. It is a start though.
Quoting Daydreamer: The same for mass murderers (they do kill men as well - I haven't heard about honour killings of an unfaithful guy) - they act against society.
When they are caught, usually they end up with capital punishment. I have never heard of honour killings perpetrators being put to death for this reason. So, all in all, there are some differences you have to agree on. |
Ummm have you heard of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorena_Bobbitt
I agree Honor Killings are an abomination....but they are not part of Islam, they are part of the societies that adopted Islam on a very superficial level.
Quoting Daydreamer: As for what Canli said about atheism not being attacked, ridiculed or laughed at - well, that proves it's a pretty neat ideology, doesn't it? |
No, it only proves that there are enthusiasts for those ideologies here now. History has shown us a different face.
Quoting Daydreamer: The reason for Islam being attacked is that there must be a reason to it. And it's not only this forum's tendency. All forums that I read have threads about Islam, and there is nobody but some Muslims who see no faults in it. |
I don't suppose the fact that the majority of the world supply of petrol, or strategic locations are in places where Islam is practiced could have anything to do with it?
|
|
| 196. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:53 pm |
|
Quoting Deli_kizin: Daydreamer, exactly my thoughts!
+1! |
+1000000 Take note I'm agreeing with Daydreamer. 
|
|
| 197. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 07:59 pm |
|
+100000
|
|
| 198. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:01 pm |
|
Quoting thehandsom: Peace Train,
You really are a goody-goody !!
I did not believe Aenigma first when she called you sanctimonious, but she was absolutely right (as usual  )
Look at your writing!!
you still dont get it!!
How can you put THAT vulgarity in these words 'A female member was spoken to in an undesirable and inappropriate way by a male.' and try to upease it?
You are trying to soften rawness of that male member's action, because you were cross with the person who was subjected to it!!
For me, this is like walking on the street and seeing a rude, stupid, cave man touching a woman's bum and smirking..
And, when the woman complains about it he gets rough and starts swearing and keep touching the woman!!
I am sorry..As a Turkish man I will nail that guy, smack him on the face and show him how he deserves to be handled.
And as a Turkish man, I will never hesitate for a second to belittle and humiliate that type of man.
And I will never think, even a split second, he is from my country, he has his traditions blah blah blah. Because I am well aware of my country's traditions, and that type of behavior does not belong to those traditions I know..
And you are saying Where do you think some men on this site get the notion there is a group of menopausal, ageing, stay at home women on this site?..I am lost for words here ....
phew!!!!!!!!!!!
Just as an info, I did not post that poem because I got bored.. I spent some times with the translation and wanted to share..that is all!!
I tried translate 3 poems and, to be honest, i never expected this one would be this 'exciting'!!! |
Handsom
I disagree, I am not a 'goody goody'. I agree, I can be sanctimonious at times, although I don't have the monopoly on it, only the crown 
I haven't tried to appease any vulgarity, I'm sorry you think that. I will say again, I do not defend what was said to GG and I said this personally to those involved. I'm not going to alter my writing style for anyone Handsom. I think I also mentioned that there is no point to the repeated deletion of the same users. It becomes a farce and deletion is not a deterrent. Perhaps 2 strikes and your out permanently is in order . . . I don't know.
I've noticed Dr Treatment has used more bad language today and, no, it is not acceptable.
I wasn't 'cross' with GG, I simply did not agree with her treatment of Alameda and said so. GG was very scathing of Alameda, on this thread and it was completely unsolicited. She may have history with Alameda that I don't know about but that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Always dredging up old axes to grind does nothing for a peaceful existence. One only has to look at the conflicts going on around the world to understand that. What good does harbouring grudges do for anyone? I am assuming this was what was behind GG's treatment of Alameda because I can't see any other reason and also, generally, people do dredge up old arguments. Of course, we have freedom of speech and people have every right to do this, as I have the right to think it is futile.
I agree, the treatment of GG is not a behaviour traditional or peculiar to Turkish men. I know what it's like to live with a drunk who is handy with his fists. (And no I didn't deserve it and I had the strength of character and self respect to get out). It's not the same as vulgar words on a website, believe me. One of the first rules on how to treat mindless and vulgar verbal attacks in cyberspace would be to ignore it. Rising to it makes it better sport for the perpetrators. I think I acknowledged that MrX was much more representative, yet he comes in for some mocking at times.
I too am lost for words with regard to where the image of ageing, menopausal, stay at home women came from. It came from somewhere and it wasn't from me (I am a menopausal adolesecent  ).
About the poem. I'm sure I acknowledged your appreciation of the technical and creative aspects of the poem.
I never made a post criticising it. My field is literature, why would I?
Catwoman wasn't happy with some aspects of the poem and someone asked would it be just as acceptable to write a poem about terrorism. I almost posted at that point. I don't think anyone would be so stupid as to venerate a poem glorifying terrorism. However, there is a wealth of war poetry that draws attention to the atrocities of war/violence. There are also many musicians and artists who do the same.
My comment about your choice of poem was my attempt at humour. Sorry if it failed. It wasn't my intention to demean your appreciation of the artistry of a poet or your translation skills. I was merely attempting to tease you because I had seen your post earlier in the day about being bored. I assumed you were "killing two birds with one stone" enjoying a poem but at the same time choosing one that you knew would get people talking. There are layers to poems, some people look only on the surface whilst others delve deeper. All responses are valid because they enrich the discussion about the poem.
So, these are my responses Handsom. Accept them or don't accept them. Your opinion of me is not a problem for me. I very rarely get cross and it always puzzles me when I see irate people on the site. Each to their own.
Thanks for your comments
|
|
| 199. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:54 pm |
|
İ wont be repeating what alameda said,i totally agree with it.
What you know about İslam,you knew it through your Media,not through us
And i dont see its our duity or responsbility too to walk arround and explain ourselves
Frankly,i dont think we have to do it,if you interest to know about İslam you can read about it from many source and you can then draw your own conclusions about it and about us
But you just want it the easy way,and that what your Media provides to you
Why İslam,and not Christianity,because its your Media,and not ours
The reasons...,well i dont exactly know,maybe to show your people how bad Muslims are,and justify some actions against us as it did in İsrael and Palastin ?!
Maybe...
They call Palastinain terrorists too for attacking İsraelians,but they never call İsraelians same...did they ?
İn your Media ?!
So what İsrael do is justified,and what Palastianin do isnt,yes ?!
And who said Jihad is a bad thing ?
Who told you that ?!
Your Media again isnt it,and you didnt take the time to check if its true or not,yes ?
Jihad in İslam means to fight in wars for some reasons,to protect your country,protect your home
So you may get killed in such wars,and ALLAH told us HE will reward us by Heaven
HE ordered us not to kill a woman,a child,or an old man though our wars
That is Jihad, so is that what you know about Jihad ?
No..
Where did you get your information about it from?
Your Media
Why should it be my responsibility to show you or tell you differently?
Why its not your own responsibility to check from what info you get before you believe it ?!
İ would do that gladly while we are debating or something,but im talking in general,not many people get the chance to talk and debat with others to reach differnt conclutions.
You are blaming us for İslam image in the West,but who reported this image to you,the way you saw it or understand it ?
Did we ?!
And were we the one who believed what we've been told ?!
We dont have to prove ourselve to you to gain your acceptance,or to defend our believes or our religion too.
And why do you count terrorism againist the West only,how about terrorism in the East ?!
You dont see fierce bloody-eyed hoards of Jews in the streets of Paris demolishing cars and wounding people,or Jews organising terrorist attacks in the USA or London,but you can see much ,much more in Palastin ,or you dont count this as terrorism ?
You can see it also in İraq...
Do you care to tell me what do you call it ?!
You assumed İslam ordered this,then should we assume Christianity,and Judaism ordered such too ?!
Specially Crusade is well known and it could prove such claim it !
The different is...We Muslims follow our religions orders and try to live by it,so you assume whatever any Muslim do,right or wrong is from İslam
But in the West,you abounded Christianity rules,you dont live by it,it has a minor influance to your life and actions,so it wont be judged by any individual's actions as you judge İslam .
Last thing,
Everyone deserves respect for just breathing.
When ALLAH created Adam,angels kneeled infront of him,so any human deserve respect till he lose it .
You disrespect people till they earn your respect,or do you respect people till they lose your respect ?!
|
|
| 200. |
04 Mar 2008 Tue 08:59 pm |
|
Canli....please don't generalize about what Christians do and whether or not we live by the rules because most of us do. It is just as infuriating as us assuming all Muslims are terrorists!! You turned around and stereotyped all of us because of the media you are subjected to. This is exactly what you accused us of.
|
|
|
