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The Issue of the Veil
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23 Jul 2008 Wed 07:59 pm |
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Quoting AEnigmamagnadea: Quoting Elisabeth: Are you sure about this? Perhaps you have stumbled on to something!!
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Hmmmmmm |
Perhaps you should start a new thread: Veil...are they following God´s command or hiding from Preists? 
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| 111. |
23 Jul 2008 Wed 08:13 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: Actually what I find most annoying about the whole veil thing is that people make such an issue about it. What is the big deal. Why speculate on it?
The Western missionaries went to the Pacific Islands and covered all the natives up in neck to ankle MuuMus. Now the same Westerners (metaphorically speaking)  want to remove the veil from Eastern women.
Argh....get over it and let people be. |
First of all - the issue is one of ´gender apartheid´, since everybody knows how women are treated in islamic countries. |
Do they? You are the expert on this? Based on what? your long and extensive experience in Islamic countries? I must admit, I find your constant use of the term "gender apartheid" amusing
Quoting catwoman: Also, when the defense of the veil is as crude as "men are incapable of not raping a woman when they see a piece of her hair", then obviously, to a rational person, it is an urgent issue of debate. And of course, there are some Muslim women who would disagree with you about ´why the fuss´, because they experience directly the repercussions of "the issue of the veil", some of which may be even death. I find it to be quite outraging that you gloss over these issues, when you know that human rights violations are behind them. If the Islamic world will "let people be", then there will be no need for an urgent debate. |
First of all: I NEVER said such a thing. I would appreciate it if you would not rewrite my words. Dare I say, you seem to be getting somewhat hysterical my dear as the issues you brought up are not ones that I mentioned, or even came near. I did say I would not like to be forced to wear a veil.....so what is your issue with me on this? The fact of the matter is, if you like it or not, some women wear coverings because they WANT to.
Quoting catwoman: Secondly, I am tired of this irresponsible argument "Christians did this, so stop pointing out the violations committed by Muslims". This is again, a childish and ridiculous argument. Please, don´t say this again, I believe we can move on in this conversation to the next level. |
Historic facts stand. In the long picture of human existance, what happened last century is not even a blink of an eye.
Second: Are you telling me what to write? Free speech? You may be tired of it, but I´m just as tired of your arguments, however I´m not telling you "Please, don´t say this again, I believe we can move on in this conversation to the next level.". As you are the OWNER of this site, are you now dictating what material can be brought into a discussion?
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| 112. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 12:03 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting MrX67: we can understand you totally that you defending woman rights and you against to all sort pressures to women dear cat,but pls try to look at this topic as a woman right to,even a few women using it with their free will??? |
MrX, you are not reading my posts, or you don´t understand them. 
I respect ALL women´s choices of how they want to live their lives and how they want to dress. Whether it´s a hijab or a mini skirt, or anything on earth. It should be a personal choice ONLY. I respect all women´s decision to wear a hijab or even burka, whether these women are intimidated into it or not. These women are not what is the problem here at all.
I see a problem with two things:
1. not all women are completely "free" to put on a hijab and to take it off when they want. In some communities there are severe consequences of taking it off!!! That is not freedom of wearing what you want!!! If a woman is raped because she didn´t wear a burka, there is something horribly wrong with the society, don´t you think? And it gets even worse when the woman is then blamed for being raped!!!!!!! How can I get this point across to you MrX???? Please tell me!
2. the other problem is with the ´reasons´ for covering women. I understand that it is a religious belief, a sign of modesty... and that is ok. But when you start saying that the reason is that men are lower animals who have no moral boundaries and they can rape a woman like dogs and that this sort of behavior is acceptable --- and therefore women need to live in fear and separation to not get in the way of these predators, I or many others cannot accept that and we will continue to argue with you about this, because this kind of twisted mentality is not acceptable. And if you change your mentality, maybe Muslim women can finally gain some freedom and power over their own lives at least! |
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| 113. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 02:46 am |
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Quoting alameda: Do they? You are the expert on this? Based on what? your long and extensive experience in Islamic countries? I must admit, I find your constant use of the term "gender apartheid" amusing |
Hmmmm.... so are you implying that Islamic countries are promoters of women´s rights? The term gender apartheid is an official term about gender relations in Saudi Arabia.
Quoting alameda: First of all: I NEVER said such a thing. I would appreciate it if you would not rewrite my words. Dare I say, you seem to be getting somewhat hysterical my dear as the issues you brought up are not ones that I mentioned, or even came near. I did say I would not like to be forced to wear a veil.....so what is your issue with me on this? The fact of the matter is, if you like it or not, some women wear coverings because they WANT to. |
The things you said about men imply that men are incapable of normal human behavior, so I´m not putting words in your mouth. And, as I said, women have the right to put on what they want. I do question if the motivation behind it is the right one, but the act itself is their right.
Quoting alameda: Historic facts stand. In the long picture of human existance, what happened last century is not even a blink of an eye.
Second: Are you telling me what to write? Free speech? You may be tired of it, but I´m just as tired of your arguments, however I´m not telling you "Please, don´t say this again, I believe we can move on in this conversation to the next level.". As you are the OWNER of this site, are you now dictating what material can be brought into a discussion?
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It doesn´t matter. If you want to discuss the West or Christianity, we can discuss that in another thread. Western problems are not an excuse for Muslims to do the same or worse. Yet, you keep on using this as if it was an excuse or an explanation.
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| 114. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 02:52 am |
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Quoting MrX67: i think we both saying same things with different ways cat??just with one difference,i´m defend to covering as a woman right,while you looking at this event as a problem of women who under some pressures??And if the target women rights,no worries i´m at the side of that may be more then you,but in good manner rules.. |
Ok, we are thinking similarly. But let me ask you this - do you think that a woman should cover herself to avoid rape, or that the rapist should be blamed for his behavior, no matter how that woman is dressed?
Also, if you support a woman´s right to wear a veil, because a woman should be able to choose freely what she wants to wear, you also should support a woman´s right to dress in any other way that she wants - without judgment of that woman (even if it´s a mini skirt).
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| 115. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 10:11 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting MrX67: i think we both saying same things with different ways cat??just with one difference,i´m defend to covering as a woman right,while you looking at this event as a problem of women who under some pressures??And if the target women rights,no worries i´m at the side of that may be more then you,but in good manner rules.. |
Ok, we are thinking similarly. But let me ask you this - do you think that a woman should cover herself to avoid rape, or that the rapist should be blamed for his behavior, no matter how that woman is dressed?
Also, if you support a woman´s right to wear a veil, because a woman should be able to choose freely what she wants to wear, you also should support a woman´s right to dress in any other way that she wants - without judgment of that woman (even if it´s a mini skirt). |
I agree with cat 100% on the issue of what women wear and being raped. I
firmly believe that rape has nothing to do with what a women wears and that men have compplete responsiblity for their actions regardless. If rape were all about the way a women dresses and sexual attraction why are women of all ages and physical appearance raped? Rape is about violence and control.
quote Myth: Women "ask for it" by hitching lifts, wearing short skirts and make-up, leading men on.
Fact: No women ever deserves to be raped, abused or assaulted, no matter what the circumstances, most rapes are planned. What a woman is wearing makes no difference.
Myth: Rape is unplanned; the rapist´s natural sexual urges carry him away.
Fact: Men do not have uncontrollable urges. They are not incapable of stopping sexual intercourse once it has begun. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that men have ´stronger´ sexual drives than women. This is an inaccurate belief rooted in society, not a fact. It is not women´s responsibility to control men´s sexuality. This myth is just another convenient excuse.
Myth: Only young, attractive women are at risk of being raped.
Fact: Women, children and men of all ages, classes, racial groups and lifestyles have been raped. No one asks to be humiliated and degraded by an act of extreme violence.
Myth: Rape is a product of an uncontrollable and overwhelming sex drive.
Fact: Men can, and do, control their sexual urges. Rape is an act of violence not a sexual act.
http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/myths.html
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| 116. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 11:56 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting MrX67: i think we both saying same things with different ways cat??just with one difference,i´m defend to covering as a woman right,while you looking at this event as a problem of women who under some pressures??And if the target women rights,no worries i´m at the side of that may be more then you,but in good manner rules.. |
Ok, we are thinking similarly. But let me ask you this - do you think that a woman should cover herself to avoid rape, or that the rapist should be blamed for his behavior, no matter how that woman is dressed?
Also, if you support a woman´s right to wear a veil, because a woman should be able to choose freely what she wants to wear, you also should support a woman´s right to dress in any other way that she wants - without judgment of that woman (even if it´s a mini skirt). |
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| 117. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 07:18 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: It doesn´t matter. If you want to discuss the West or Christianity, we can discuss that in another thread. Western problems are not an excuse for Muslims to do the same or worse. Yet, you keep on using this as if it was an excuse or an explanation. |
You know, I was not aware that this was a discussion solely on Muslims, as the topic of this thread is: "The Issue of the Veil". thus anything relevant to veiling is game. Is it impossible for you to admit it exists, and has existed in the West and Christianity as well? I would like to point out it also existed in ancient Greece, Japan, China and other places.
Quoting catwoman:
Hmmmm.... so are you implying that Islamic countries are promoters of women´s rights? The term gender apartheid is an official term about gender relations in Saudi Arabia. |
Again, as the topic of this thread is "the issue of the veil" I was not aware that we should limit our discussion to Saudi Arabia. Perhaps you should start a tread on Saudi Arabia or women´s rights in Islam? At that point, I can choose to join in or to not join in the discussion. It was my choice to join in a discussion on "The Issue of the Veil", not Saudi Arabia or women´s rights in Islam. Are you trying to lead me on another path I choose not to go down, or are you trying to seduce me to traverse another path?
Quoting catwoman: The things you said about men imply that men are incapable of normal human behavior, so I´m not putting words in your mouth. And, as I said, women have the right to put on what they want. I do question if the motivation behind it is the right one, but the act itself is their right. |
My, how magnanimous of you! I did not say men are not capable of normal human behavior, what I did point out is the fact that normal male behavior is not like normal female behavior. I don´t suppose you have come across the effects of testosterone, have you?
What I am pointing out are is the fact that there are differences between men and women. Is that so difficult to understand?
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| 118. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 07:39 pm |
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Quoting MrX67: well i don´t believe good manner about wearing style,covered or decolty and sure thats in a woman´s or man´s brain,never on the clothes.And which one of us can blame any woman to be not good mannered just with her wearing style,isn´t that the one of biggest prejudice?and who can be other one´s moral watchman??i want to replay it again i accpet that as a real woman right,covering or not covering,but away from men´s pressures....And just i want to say we have to be objective about burka and mini skirt by accepting that with our all heart as one of most important woman right.. |
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| 119. |
24 Jul 2008 Thu 07:41 pm |
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Quoting silversong: Myth: Rape is unplanned; the rapist´s natural sexual urges carry him away.
Fact: Men do not have uncontrollable urges. They are not incapable of stopping sexual intercourse once it has begun. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that men have ´stronger´ sexual drives than women. This is an inaccurate belief rooted in society, not a fact. It is not women´s responsibility to control men´s sexuality. This myth is just another convenient excuse.
Myth: Only young, attractive women are at risk of being raped.
Fact: Women, children and men of all ages, classes, racial groups and lifestyles have been raped. No one asks to be humiliated and degraded by an act of extreme violence.
Myth: Rape is a product of an uncontrollable and overwhelming sex drive.
Fact: Men can, and do, control their sexual urges. Rape is an act of violence not a sexual act.
http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/myths.html
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Absolutely, thanks for quoting these myth-busters. We have such distorted ideas about these issues because of how the patriarchy educates people as to what is ´normal´. And ´normal´ is what is for the benefit for men, not an objective truth, and far from fairness.
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