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Kicked out of Germany after honour killing
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| 100. |
07 Aug 2008 Thu 06:00 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Wheren´t you the one who said it is ridiculous that expacts don´t speak the local language? Correct me if I´m wrong. And what´s the difference between expecting expacts to adjust (which I support very much) and other immigrants? Is that fascist? Please explain. |
Actually I was saying that it is human nature. Go to any town in any part of the world and you will find it divided into communities of the same nationalities.
I am not saying it is right or wrong – I am saying you can’t criticise one nationality or group, and not another.
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| 101. |
07 Aug 2008 Thu 06:05 pm |
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Quoting AEnigmamagnadea: Quoting Trudy: Wheren´t you the one who said it is ridiculous that expacts don´t speak the local language? Correct me if I´m wrong. And what´s the difference between expecting expacts to adjust (which I support very much) and other immigrants? Is that fascist? Please explain. |
Actually I was saying that it is human nature. Go to any town in any part of the world and you will find it divided into communities of the same nationalities.
I am not saying it is right or wrong – I am saying you can’t criticise one nationality or group, and not another.
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Oh but I DO critisize both groups if you read my replies correct. I DO expect from expats to adjust in several ways, one of them is language, and I do the same towards immigrants.
And while Ciko doesn´t want to explain (because s/he doesn´t want to spend time to that) maybe you can please explain why you find my ideas fascist? You added a +1 to Ciko´s post, so you agree with that characterization. Probably I´m too stupid to understand but I really don´t get it.
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| 102. |
07 Aug 2008 Thu 06:11 pm |
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Ok,my two pennies,
İ think,if im going to live in a different country,so yes,of course i will learn its language,for nothing but at least for myself,so i can manage my life there dont feel isolated,and dont depend on anyone too.
At least for my own security,safty...ect i must understand what is going on arround me by myself.
Will am i going to change to adapt to the culture as you say,so,no i guess not,if that means i TOTALLY forget who am i,my being,my roots,my traditions...ect so DEFİNİTELY NOPE
But,if that means,i will open my mind,and eyes,and see the new environment im in,and pick what suits me,and apply it to my life,and what doesnt i reject it,and accepted,that people are different,so i take them,accept them as they are,and expect them to do same also with me by all means...then YES,i will DEFİNİTELY do that.
But what if i do that,and the society there ´not all of it Trudy,yes,but most of´ rejected me for nothing but,im not EXACTLY same...because im different ?!
İ guess that is mainly the stiuation with Turks in German.
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| 103. |
07 Aug 2008 Thu 06:19 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: Ok,my two pennies,
İ think,if im going to live in a different country,so yes,of course i will learn its language,for nothing but at least for myself,so i can manage my life there dont feel isolated,and dont depend on anyone too.
At least for my own security,safty...ect i must understand what is going on arround me by myself.
Will am i going to change to adapt to the culture as you say,so,no i guess not,if that means i TOTALLY forget who am i,my being,my roots,my traditions...ect so DEFİNİTELY NOPE
But,if that means,i will open my mind,and eyes,and see the new environment im in,and pick what suits me,and apply it to my life,and what doesnt i reject it,and accepted,that people are different,so i take them,accept them as they are,and expect them to do same also with me by all means...then YES,i will DEFİNİTELY do that.
But what if i do that,and the socity there reject me for nothing but,im not EXACTLY same...because im different ?!
İ guess that is mainly the stiuation with Turks in German. |
Of course adapting does NOT mean forget who you are and what your roots are. I think that no-one can ask that from anyone. But there is - to me - a big gap between keeping everything as you were used to in your own country and adapting into the new country.
And about that rejecting: people who do that are acting wrong. But happily not all people reject immigrants.
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| 104. |
07 Aug 2008 Thu 07:32 pm |
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Quoting ciko:
Crap and fascist posts by the three of you... |
Yeah, it is crap to believe that a fourth generation of immigrants should be able to speak the language of the country they were born in. And it´s fascist to consider playing the immigration card as excuse for their inability to make a living. Fortunately you saw that through and by the depth of your comment made it clear that if you´re born in an immigrant family, you should demand a compensation from the country your parents (or grandparents) moved to - don´t learn their language (it´s fascist of a government to want citizens to speak a language), don´t go to school (going there would require speaking the language), live off welfare benefits (after all who´s gonna employ an immigrant like you). And then complain that the country you´re in didn´t give you a chance. Demand that your customs are respected, circumcise your women, marry twelve-year-olds, murder raped girls - after all it might be a tradition in your country, why should a fascist western government forbid you to carry on your traditions? It´s limiting your freedom!
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| 105. |
07 Aug 2008 Thu 09:07 pm |
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Quoting ciko: well sorry, i cant spend my time arguing with people who does not know about economical role of emigration for developed countries. they first have to look at some books and search about it instead of talking nonsense about such an important subject. |
Wonderful post by Ciko!  So arrogant, fascistic and full of wisdom! Please give us the list of books that you´ve studied from so that we can deserve to have a conversation with you.
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| 106. |
08 Aug 2008 Fri 12:31 am |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting ciko: well i dont need to look at the link to know what it means trudy. what you and your dear friends wrote in your posts were fascist for me. fascism or such things are relative concepts. not like 2+2=4..anyway i reccomend you to read some books about 60s and 70s economy instead of stupid wikipedia. |
I still don´t know what is wrong with saying that after a certain time one must and can expect from immigrants that they need to adept at least a little into that new country. If I would come to Turkey, it would be only logical to me that locals would expect (even demand!) that after ten years I speak the language, that I wouldn´t expect everything to be as in my own country. So if anyone can expect that from me, why can´t I do the same otherwise around? And no, I never said that there aren´t immigrants with many difficulties or who face discrimination. I only say that not all do that and that I expect some own responsibility for their own life. If thinking that makes me a fascist, so be it. |
There is a difference here. Germany invited the Turks therefore should have provided some assistance to learn the language, and to help those who came to integrate. From my experience this was not the case.
The same has happen in England, migrant are more or less expected to come and fill the labour shortage gaps and low and behold they (the Government) withdraw funding for ESOL. So the migrant on a low income cannot afford to pay for language classes. How you can say demand I am not sure, someone has to pay for the classes, they are not free, and they are not always easy to access. Not everyone has access to computers or further education colleges. Books are not cheap, and the low earning jobs are usually long hours, leaving little time for study.
I agree that effort has to be made on the part of the migrant, but if someone chooses to go to a country then they should be the ones to make the effort to learn the language.
Migration is an economic solution to a country´s labour shortage problem, and migrants fill those jobs that the idigenous workforce are not interested in. In the UK it is agriculture and hospitality and I guess much the same for other European countries. In London 60% of all hospitality workers are not of British origin. Low pay, cold, wet, long hours, unsociable hours, poor conditions etc etc
It is a far more complex situation than is being discussed or argued about here.
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| 107. |
08 Aug 2008 Fri 12:40 am |
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Has anyone forgotten the "library". My father learned to paint, learn autcad and to repair a car by simply going to the library. The best thing about a library is that it´s 100% free.
I do think if the government is involved with bringing people into their country they should find resources for them. However, I also believe an effort needs to be made by the individual as well to learn what they can. I´m not saying you should be able to speak fluently within a years time.
If my company ASKED me to go to Turkey for several years to work and they knew I didn´t speak Turkish, I myself would take the initiative to learn. If I was REQUIRED by my company then I would expect them to take on more responsiblity.
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| 108. |
08 Aug 2008 Fri 02:56 am |
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Quoting teaschip: Has anyone forgotten the "library". My father learned to paint, learn autcad and to repair a car by simply going to the library. The best thing about a library is that it´s 100% free.
I do think if the government is involved with bringing people into their country they should find resources for them. However, I also believe an effort needs to be made by the individual as well to learn what they can. I´m not saying you should be able to speak fluently within a years time.
If my company ASKED me to go to Turkey for several years to work and they knew I didn´t speak Turkish, I myself would take the initiative to learn. If I was REQUIRED by my company then I would expect them to take on more responsiblity. |
thousands of foreign employees come to Turkey every year for job, but they hardly have an incentive to learn the language. The place where I live in Turkey has an high population of foreign professionals and expats. You can see lots of people speaking foreign language in the street there, but I hardly see them speaking Turkish. They usually learn just a couple of words to cope with the common everyday tasks like getting groceries or asking for directions, but thats all.
I also know people who try hard to learn the language. two of them were my English and math teachers when I was in highschool and their Turkish was splendid.
But the majority of foreign people especially those who come from the western countries to Turkey are just like what I described.
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| 109. |
08 Aug 2008 Fri 05:01 am |
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Quoting libralady: There is a difference here. Germany invited the Turks therefore should have provided some assistance to learn the language, and to help those who came to integrate. From my experience this was not the case.
The same has happen in England, migrant are more or less expected to come and fill the labour shortage gaps and low and behold they (the Government) withdraw funding for ESOL. So the migrant on a low income cannot afford to pay for language classes. How you can say demand I am not sure, someone has to pay for the classes, they are not free, and they are not always easy to access. Not everyone has access to computers or further education colleges. Books are not cheap, and the low earning jobs are usually long hours, leaving little time for study.
I agree that effort has to be made on the part of the migrant, but if someone chooses to go to a country then they should be the ones to make the effort to learn the language.
Migration is an economic solution to a country´s labour shortage problem, and migrants fill those jobs that the idigenous workforce are not interested in. In the UK it is agriculture and hospitality and I guess much the same for other European countries. In London 60% of all hospitality workers are not of British origin. Low pay, cold, wet, long hours, unsociable hours, poor conditions etc etc
It is a far more complex situation than is being discussed or argued about here. |
I find your posts to be most informed here. Thank you.
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| 110. |
08 Aug 2008 Fri 05:04 am |
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Quoting tamikidakika: thousands of foreign employees come to Turkey every year for job, but they hardly have an incentive to learn the language. The place where I live in Turkey has an high population of foreign professionals and expats. You can see lots of people speaking foreign language in the street there, but I hardly see them speaking Turkish. They usually learn just a couple of words to cope with the common everyday tasks like getting groceries or asking for directions, but thats all.
I also know people who try hard to learn the language. two of them were my English and math teachers when I was in highschool and their Turkish was splendid.
But the majority of foreign people especially those who come from the western countries to Turkey are just like what I described. |
So this is comparable to people who were born in a country, live in it their whole lives and still can´t speak the country´s language?  
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