Quoting Daydreamer:

I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault.

The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation.

Quoting Trudy:

Quoting teaschip:

Quoting Trudy: Quoting Daydreamer: I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault. The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation. Exactly! Great post, Daydreamer. And for those who find it hard to believe that there is something like own responsibility, I´ll give an example: in my class I have a man from Afghanistan, now in the country for 10 years. He claims to have university education in his own country, that he was an English teacher overthere, though he hardly speaks any English. He´s been in my class for 3,5 years now (during working hours, paid by his boss!) and he still cannot say a simple sentence without mistakes. When I ask him if he reads newspapers, watches tv in Dutch or go to the library, he says no. No time he says and no interest, he watches Arab tv by satellite. Still, he accuses the government of his poverty (he has 8 children! - and gets quite some child support) but any effort made by himself has not been made to improve his circumstances. He only thinks he´s a victim of the Taliban and that because he´s a refugee the government should pamper him. Well, I disagree with that. And I think there are many more cases like that, in any country so also in Germany.

Quoting kashmir:

If you come to germany (I am here) you will find that the Germans treat the turks more or less in the same manner a lot of white American treat blacks. It sucks. But as much as i love the turks (VERY MUCH) there are a some rotten apples that do spoil the whole bunch. As many germans do not like the turks to begin with, they will find any little excuse as to why a turk should go back to Turkey or leave their country.

Quote:

Quoting ciko:

Quoting teaschip: Quoting Trudy: Quoting Daydreamer: I know a few German Turks who are well-educated and run their own companies. Saying that the country doesn´t give them equal chances is nonsense. In Germany there´s compulsory education at least until the age of 16 I think. If you´re unable to learn to speak the language with native-like fluency attending 10 years of school then it is just your fault. The thing is, it all depends what your background predestines you to make of your future. If your parents see no point of education but would rather have you earn money at 18 then is it the country´s fault that instead of learning you get a low-paid job? Let´s not forget that a low pay in Germany is enough to make a living. If you marry at 18 because there´s a child on the way you´re eligible for child support benefit that gets respectively higher with every child. Is it the government´s fault that people with low incomes have a lot of children and then apply for bigger allowances? No. I understand that it´s hard to be a first or second generation of immigrants, especially if you don´t know the language. But there´s nothing justifying lack of success of the fourth generation. Exactly! Great post, Daydreamer. And for those who find it hard to believe that there is something like own responsibility, I´ll give an example: in my class I have a man from Afghanistan, now in the country for 10 years. He claims to have university education in his own country, that he was an English teacher overthere, though he hardly speaks any English. He´s been in my class for 3,5 years now (during working hours, paid by his boss!) and he still cannot say a simple sentence without mistakes. When I ask him if he reads newspapers, watches tv in Dutch or go to the library, he says no. No time he says and no interest, he watches Arab tv by satellite. Still, he accuses the government of his poverty (he has 8 children! - and gets quite some child support) but any effort made by himself has not been made to improve his circumstances. He only thinks he´s a victim of the Taliban and that because he´s a refugee the government should pamper him. Well, I disagree with that. And I think there are many more cases like that, in any country so also in Germany. Great posts by the two of you...