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Forum Messages Posted by erdinc

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Thread: Floss'dan koşma hoşlanıyor

341.       erdinc
2151 posts
 22 Aug 2006 Tue 03:57 am

Quoting bod:

I thought it was only "istemek" that could take the full infinitive -mak / -mek. I thought all other verbs (including "hoşlanmak") took the short infinitive -ma / -me



Hi Bod,
This is not what I wanted to tell but if you understood it that way then it is because I was misleading you.

Once I wrote, "Except 'istemek', which is an auxiliary verb, I can't think of any other verb that would be used with mastar hali.".

By "mastar hali" I was considering the full infinitive without any suffix. In fact for verb sentences there aren't any other verbs except istemek (and gerekmek and olmak it turns out) that take an infinitive in nominative case.

This is correct:
"Only istemek, gerekmek, olmak" can take an infinitive without any suffix (in nominative case)."

This is incorrect:
"Only istemek, gerekmek, olmak" can take an infinitive in -mek version."

This second sentence will be incorrect because the infinitive can be in -mek version in locative and ablative cases as well. I hope I didn't suggest the second one in one of my previous messages.

I wanted to say that all other transitive verbs except istemek (and gerekmek and olmak) should take infinitives with case suffixes.

Most transitive verbs take the accusative case and the accusative case of infinitives is always with the short infinitive. Therefore we say always gitmeyi, yürümeyi, bakmayı, okumayı etc with the short infinitive -ma,-me.

Hoşlanmak takes the ablative case -den,-den and the ablative case should take only the full version as in, "gitmekten, yürümekten, bakmaktan, okumaktan".

For the locative and ablative cases there is a common mistake among natives to use them with the short infinitive. I don't suggest using this.



Thread: Floss'dan koşma hoşlanıyor

342.       erdinc
2151 posts
 22 Aug 2006 Tue 03:19 am

Scalpel is correct on saying that both the full and short infinitives are nouns. Yes and infinitive is the noun form of a verb. Like all nouns they take case suffixes.

An infinitive in nominative case is always the full infinitive.
An infinitive in dative case is always the short infinitive.
An infinitive in accusative case is always the short infinitive.
An infinitive in nominative case is 'always' the short infinitive.
An infinitive in locative case is always the full infinitive. *
An infinitive in ablative case is 'always' the full infinitive. **

* The short infinitive is sometimes used here but I don't suggest this.
** In some historical phrases which are very limited in number, the short infinitive still exist with the ablative: "yemeden içmeden kesildi".


Summary:
(no suffix) nominative : -mek > gitmek
(-e,-a case) dative : -me > gitmeye
(-ı,-i,-u,-ü case) accusative : -me > gitmeyi
(-ın,-in,-un,-ün) genitive : -me > gitmenin
(-de,-da case) locative : -mek > gitmekte
(-den,-dan case) ablative case : -mek > gitmekten

Pick any transitive verb and add an infinitive as object.
Example:

sevmek is a transitive verb. It takes -i case. So we say "öğrenmeyi seviyorum", "okumayı seviyorum".

Hoşlanmak is a transitive verb. It takes -den case. So we say "öğrenmekten hoşlanıyorum", "okumaktan hoşlanıyorum".

istemek is a transitive verb. It takes both the accusative case or nominative case. So we say "öğrenmek istiyorum", "okumak istiyorum".

"An infinitive in nominative case is always the full infinitive."
This is correct in any case including noun sentences.

"Türkçe öğrenmek çok kolay."
"Yüzmek çok güzel."

The short infinitive doesn't exist in nominative case except,
1. building permanent nouns: düşÃ¼nme, yüzme, okuma
2. creating noun modifications: yürüme hızı, dönme süresi, gitme zamanı.

Bod,
It is not only istemek but there are other verbs that take an infinitive as an object in nominative case.

Gerekmek is a second one:
"Çok konuşmak gerekmez."
"Çok su içmek gerekiyor."
Olmak is a third one:
"Gitmek olmaz."
"İlk yapacağım şey uyumak olacak."

So I found three verbs (istemek, gerekmek, olmak) so far in this category. Sorry, I don't know any source that includes this kind information. Some information I give in forums I derive on my own.

Scalpel,
I too wrote many times that infinitives are nouns.

Quoting erdinc:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27_5159
I have decided to use the term "short infinitive" instead "verbal noun suffix". After all the infinitive is the noun form of a verb.


Quoting erdinc:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_5224
The infinitive is by definition the noun form of a verb and doesn't need any other suffix. While -mek is the full infinitive we have also the short infinitive -me. Both are nouns. For instance in the above sentence okuma is the short infinitive.


Quoting erdinc:


http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_27_5291_2
All infinitives are verbal nouns as well. For instance "yüzmek" is also a verbal noun. An infinitive is a verb's noun form. "yüzme" is the short infinitive.



Thread: A small reminder

343.       erdinc
2151 posts
 21 Aug 2006 Mon 11:32 pm

If you receiving unwanted private messages mark them as spam by pressing the spam button on the message.

Please be sure that we are deleting those who are reported mustiple times for spamming.



Thread: Please, translate in Turkish!

344.       erdinc
2151 posts
 21 Aug 2006 Mon 10:16 pm

Quoting caliptrix:

Quoting The Turks:

umut ediyorum ki gusel vakit gecirecegiz



it must be güzel with the letter z



caliptrix,
I think that member might not hear you as he is gone now.



Thread: Yapmak or Etmek??? please!!

345.       erdinc
2151 posts
 21 Aug 2006 Mon 08:16 pm

Quoting scalpel:

There is no auxiliary verb in Turkish like is,has,etc in English



This is true. I didn't say our auxiliaries are same as in English. No, they are not. They are completely different.

Like I said before, our auxiliaries are used to create verbs out of nouns by being located next to the noun.

Once again I repeat the same example:

"dans etmek" is an infinitive. You can use this infinitive as a verb like in "Ben dans ediyorum" or you can use it as noun like in "Dans etmek istiyorum". In all cases "etmek" in dans etmek is an auxiliary verb.

Here is a list of auxiliary verbs in Turkish from TDK.
http://www.tdk.org.tr/tdksozluk2/SOZBUL.ASP
On the search menu choose "yardımcı fiil" and at the end you should see a screen like in this picture:
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5641/yardimcifiillerpx0.jpg

Our Turkish speaking members can learn more on auxiliary verbs in this article:
http://www.tdk.org.tr/ham027.html

Quoting Prof. Dr. Hamza ZÃœLFİKAR:

Etmek, olmak, eylemek, kılmak yardımcı fiilleri


Quoting Prof. Dr. Hamza ZÃœLFİKAR:

Yardımcı fiil veya yardımcı eylem dediğimiz bu birkaç fiil, isim sınıfına giren Türkçe ve yabancı kökenli kelimeleri işletmeye yarar. ... Yardımcı fiiller, yalnızca Türkçede bulunmaz; çağdaş batı dillerinden İngilizcede auxiliary verb, Fransızcada verb auxiliaire, Almancada Hilfsverb adlarıyla birer konu olarak yer alırlar


Quoting Prof. Dr. Hamza ZÃœLFİKAR:

Olmak, etmek, eylemek ünlü ile başlayan birer yardımcı fiildir



Our auxiliary verbs also exist as ordinary verbs. This is smillar to "do" and "have" in English.

Examples:

Vermek is ordinary verb here:
Kalemi bana ver. (Give me the pencil)

Vermek is auxiliary verb here:
Geri döneceğine söz ver. (Promise [söz ver] that you will return)

The predicate in the last sentense is "söz vermek" (to give his word).

If you think vermek in "söz vermek", yapmak in "numara yapmak", olmak in "şok olmak", etmek in "teşekkür etmek" is not auxiliary verb you are wrong. There are lots of examples for auxiliary verbs in Turkish in that article mentioned above.

You can do your own search. Use "yardımcı fiil" as keyword.

Quoting scalpel:

Yapmak, almak, etc,are ordinary verbs like drive,make,etc.in English.


This is not exactly true. I understand that English langauge teachers in Turkia think that way but this is not exactlu the case. They can be ordinary verbs or auxiliary verbs.

There is a good article on this issue here:
http://tdk.gov.tr/turkdili/temmuz2005/dogruyazalim.htm

Yapmak is ordinary verb here:
Resim yapmak, ayakkabı yapmak, liman yapmak, yol yapmak, film yapmak etc.

Yapmak is ordinary verb here as well:
master yapmak, doktora yapmak, analiz yapmak

In all these examples yapmak remains its ordinary meaning: to do, to make, to create, to process.

But here yapmak is an auxiliary verb:
"laf yapmak" , "park yapmak" , "şekerleme yapmak".

'Almak' in 'duş almak' is auxiliary verb. This is typical since is makes a verb out of a noun originated from another language. Auxiliary verbs in Turkish usually make verbs of Arabic nouns. "Teşekkür etmek" is the most famous example.

But I agree it is not always easy to decide when yapmak is auxiliary or ordinary verb.

Quote:

Aslında bir esas fiil olan yapmak özellikle son dönemlerde batıdan gelen isimlerin fiil biçimlerini oluşturmak için yardımcı fiil olarak kullanılmıştır. Bu akım günümüzde de artan bir hızla devam etmektedir. Örneklerden birkaçı şunlardır: kampanya yapmak, kur yapmak, diyet yapmak, koordinasyon yapmak, pike yapmak, demagoji yapmak, analiz yapmak, rezervasyon yapmak, sponsorluk yapmak vb. Burada bizi zorlayan şey bu örneklerin hangisinde yapmak esas fiil, hangisinde yardımcı fiil oluşudur.



Thread: pronouns part 2

346.       erdinc
2151 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 08:11 pm

Yes, it is two times negative. There is nothing wrong with this. Your translation is also very good.

Hiçbir şey görmedim : I didn't see nothing.

This is a literal translation. This is the way we speak. There are always differences between languages. You just need to accept them and move on. If you fight with the language you just lose time.

By the way I have heard people saying "Don't shoot nobody" (Eddie Murphy said this in a movie) or "Don't say nothing" so it might be more reasonable than it looks at first glance.



Thread: Tell me one sentence among 1000 most common Turkish sentences in everyday speech

347.       erdinc
2151 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 05:39 pm

All entries mentioned so far have been processed.



Thread: Tell me one sentence among 1000 most common Turkish sentences in everyday speech

348.       erdinc
2151 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 03:31 pm

Cyrano's sentences look good. I will add all additions to opening message shortly.



Thread: Tell me one sentence among 1000 most common Turkish sentences in everyday speech

349.       erdinc
2151 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 06:23 am

I will make it alphabetical when it becomes too much to follow.



Thread: Tell me one sentence among 1000 most common Turkish sentences in everyday speech

350.       erdinc
2151 posts
 20 Aug 2006 Sun 05:49 am

OK. I will add the translations and I will put all entres together and reorganize them according frequency (roughly) when we have at least a few hundred entries. Actually there should be more than 1000 entries so we can choose the more common ones among them.

Let's see how intense the contribution will be from our Turkish members. Actually I would be interested to hear more pattern sentences such as "müsait bir yerde inecek var". These are the funny details of a language.

I can give an example from English on what I mean by pattern sentences. I think, this is a pattern sentence: "Let's get the hell out of here".



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