Living - working in Turkey |
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Buddhist marry Muslim
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04 May 2007 Fri 08:45 pm |
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i accidently saw this quote, and i have a question to ask:how can u marry with a turkish but still keeping ur religion?
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04 May 2007 Fri 08:45 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: The difference is that in the western world, a woman can do whatever she wants, can say openly what she thinks and doesn't have to follow anybody, can be free and independent. Yes, there is brainwashing, there is discrimination and rampant sexism, women are highly valued only for their sexuality and not much more, but they can CHOOSE to not be that way and then they will be respected. And NO, the three things you mentioned are NOT the only things women gained in the modern world. I'm sure you wouldn't want to live the life your grandmother lived and there are many things we take for granted now. In a way, the restrictions of islamic world even sound appealing to some people who don't really understand what it's like to be born in those extremely patriarchal, conservative cultures. To them it might feel like an adventure, especially if they weren't very good at establishing boundaries in their own culture. A few examples of other things women gained (on top of mixing with men and wearing skimpy clothes) is - work opportunities, voting rights, the right to choose who they want to marry, the right to go to school, sharing home responsibilities with the husband, more equal justice towards men and women (for example, when a man has an affair, it's ok, but if a woman has an affair, she deserves punishment if not by death in some islamic countries), punishment of men when they are abusive towards women, or even the freedom to divorce.
It seems to me that you really don't see the reality very well and tend to 'romanticize' (as Capoiera rightly noticed) Islam. If you feel so good about becoming a muslim, good for you, but seeing how you are blind and completely uncritical and one-sided in your criticism, scares me.
In islamic world, there's usually not that much choice for women, while men are allowed almost anything they want to do (multiple wifes, prostitution, porn, few or no responsibilities at home, and what the fuck is that piece about beating wife with a pencil-thick piece of wood!!!!!). Of course it varies from family to family and from person to person, but there's a consistent pattern when you look at the big picture.
Please, don't tell me that women don't wear skimpy clothes in islamic countries or that there's no porn or prostitution. I heard MANY, MANY people say that these things are even more rampant in those countries then anywhere else. Those people excuse themselves very effectively for doing such things. The only difference is that they are more hypocritic about it. Just take Turkey as an example and you'll see how much soft porn is openly published in daily newspapers, it's MUCH worse then it is in any western country and add to that all the more hard core porn that's regularly added to magazines and newspapers and readily available everywhere. You can ask about this any honest man or woman or just see it for yourself and you'll be in for a toxic shock. Yes, they condemn scantily clad women, but they all use them all the time, it's VERY hypocritical. |
Great text. I want to add a few other things that are gained: the right to have your own house instead of living with your parents until you get married (which means a life time if you don't marry); the right to choose not to marry but just live together without being 'the shame of the family'; the right to choose your partner, not only a man.
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04 May 2007 Fri 08:59 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: The difference is that in the western world, a woman can do whatever she wants, can say openly what she thinks and doesn't have to follow anybody, can be free and independent. Yes, there is brainwashing, there is discrimination and rampant sexism, women are highly valued only for their sexuality and not much more, but they can CHOOSE to not be that way and then they will be respected. And NO, the three things you mentioned are NOT the only things women gained in the modern world. I'm sure you wouldn't want to live the life your grandmother lived and there are many things we take for granted now. In a way, the restrictions of islamic world even sound appealing to some people who don't really understand what it's like to be born in those extremely patriarchal, conservative cultures. To them it might feel like an adventure, especially if they weren't very good at establishing boundaries in their own culture. A few examples of other things women gained (on top of mixing with men and wearing skimpy clothes) is - work opportunities, voting rights, the right to choose who they want to marry, the right to go to school, sharing home responsibilities with the husband, more equal justice towards men and women (for example, when a man has an affair, it's ok, but if a woman has an affair, she deserves punishment if not by death in some islamic countries), punishment of men when they are abusive towards women, or even the freedom to divorce.
It seems to me that you really don't see the reality very well and tend to 'romanticize' (as Capoiera rightly noticed) Islam. If you feel so good about becoming a muslim, good for you, but seeing how you are blind and completely uncritical and one-sided in your criticism, scares me.
In islamic world, there's usually not that much choice for women, while men are allowed almost anything they want to do (multiple wifes, prostitution, porn, few or no responsibilities at home, and what the fuck is that piece about beating wife with a pencil-thick piece of wood!!!!!). Of course it varies from family to family and from person to person, but there's a consistent pattern when you look at the big picture.
Please, don't tell me that women don't wear skimpy clothes in islamic countries or that there's no porn or prostitution. I heard MANY, MANY people say that these things are even more rampant in those countries then anywhere else. Those people excuse themselves very effectively for doing such things. The only difference is that they are more hypocritic about it. Just take Turkey as an example and you'll see how much soft porn is openly published in daily newspapers, it's MUCH worse then it is in any western country and add to that all the more hard core porn that's regularly added to magazines and newspapers and readily available everywhere. You can ask about this any honest man or woman or just see it for yourself and you'll be in for a toxic shock. Yes, they condemn scantily clad women, but they all use them all the time, it's VERY hypocritical. |
x a million!!!!
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04 May 2007 Fri 09:01 pm |
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The real islam is another thing, the male dominant culture in islamic countries is another thing.
You blame some men in islamic countries to be hypocritical, but in fact watching porn, drinking alcohol, having sex without marriage are all forbidden to men. There are men who really obey these rules, and putting forward these things to someone to make her prevent to convert to İslam is nonsense. I really know men who are not hypocritical and who try to apply the rules as it should be.
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04 May 2007 Fri 09:34 pm |
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Quoting mltm: The real islam is another thing, the male dominant culture in islamic countries is another thing.
You blame some men in islamic countries to be hypocritical, but in fact watching porn, drinking alcohol, having sex without marriage are all forbidden to men. There are men who really obey these rules, and putting forward these things to someone to make her prevent to convert to İslam is nonsense. I really know men who are not hypocritical and who try to apply the rules as it should be. |
Thank you mltm for exposing more hypocricy in your culture.
I don't know how you manage to make sense out of all the things you guys are claiming. You must be extremely smart!!! So, the male dominant culture has nothing to do with the religion, but I thought you said that women are inferior to men according to islam... And how come men are never inhibited from 'breaking the law', but women are at every occasion...? (remember about the so called 'honor killings' when a woman is killed by her family for having pre-marital sex, but the man she had sex with has no consequences, obviously I don't think either of them should be punished)
So the last line of defense is saying that what you see is not the so called "real islam", that's laughable because none of you really know what "real islam" is. You can't agree on anything consistently and whenever there's a conflict you can't resolve, you say that these things are supposed to be individually interpreted.
To me, it's nonsense to join a group of people that behave hypocritically and don't do what they claim to believe in, even if I liked their religion (it's quite a small population of those who follow everything).
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04 May 2007 Fri 09:56 pm |
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Honor killings has nothing to do with islam either.
But anyway guys this is just going to explode soon I think we should all be openminded and take the blaming a notch or two down.
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04 May 2007 Fri 10:31 pm |
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Quoting azade: Honor killings has nothing to do with islam either. |
Then I wonder why nobody in the islamic world criticizes it and tries to do something to prevent them. Only in Turkey, the secular laws are trying to stop these killings by persecuting the murderers. Unfortunately, the family chooses a small child in the family to do the shooting so that nobody goes to prison (yes, the laws aren't that good about it).
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04 May 2007 Fri 10:33 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
Well,if the maid's husband is capable of hiring a maid,then so be it.
İf he is not,then he should help his wife.
People've got different income levels,and you cannt expect all levels live the same ! |
You know, some people are rich by birth as they are born into a rich family. Accordingly their income levels are much higher than those of the rest. They can hire maids while the others can't. One thing is clear: actual economies don't care such inequity. The question is, does Islam as a religion of humankind not care that either? Or let me ask this way: Why can I not expect all levels to be the same? What is it that I lack while some have, in order to have income enough to hire a maid (suppose that I am one who cannot hire a maid.)? Aren't we all human beings? Shouldn't we all be equall in every respect, including income levels? After all, aren't we all the creatures that the same God created? I mean, does the Koran say anything about this point?
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04 May 2007 Fri 10:36 pm |
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The Relationship Between Men and Women in Islam
Written by Dr. Z. Saritoprak
09.09.2005
The Qur'an invites people to form a family life and points out many wisdoms and benefits of marriage. 'And Allah has given you wives of your own kind, and has given you, from your wives, sons and grandsons, and has made provision of good things for you. Is it then in vanity that they believe and in the grace of Allah that they disbelieve?' (16:72). The Qur'an views marriage as a serious commitment on the part of the husband and wife; it is a covenant between the husband and wife. It speaks of the rights of the husband and the wife. 'If you wish to divorce one wife and marry another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her, even if it be a talent of gold. Is it appropriate to take this by making up reasons for divorce and intentionally sinning? How can you take it back when you have lain with each other and put your heads on the same pillow and entered into a firm contract? That would be improper and grossly unjust' (4:20–21).
In addition to this, the Holy Book in principle emphasizes what is good and consistently declares that spouses should do what is good towards each other. 'O you who believe! It is not lawful for you forcibly to inherit the women (of your deceased kinsmen), nor (that) you should put constraint upon them that you may take away a part of that which you have given them, unless they be guilty of flagrant lewdness. But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein Allah has placed much good' (4:19).
In order to strengthen the ties of marriage, the Qur'an places more responsibility upon the husband's shoulders. It also imposes part of the responsibility upon the community, in the case of a disagreement between spouses. It views divorce, which God dislikes, as the last resort when reconciliation becomes impossible. 'O Prophet! When you (men) divorce women, divorce them for their (legal) period and reckon carefully the period, and keep your duty to Allah, your Lord particularly about the rights of your wives. Expel them not from their houses nor let them go forth unless they commit an immorality such as adultery. Such are the limits (imposed by) Allah; and whoso transgresses Allah's limits, he verily wrongs his soul. You know not: it may be that Allah will afterward bring some new thing to pass. Then, when they have reached their term (a three month period), take them back in kindness or part from them in kindness, and call to witness two just men among you, and keep your testimony upright for Allah. Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day is exhorted to act thusly. And whosoever keeps his duty to Allah, Allah will appoint a way out for him.' (65:1–2).
Another Qur'anic verse says, 'When you divorce your wives, lodge them where you dwell according to your wealth, and do not pressure them to leave through harassment. And if they are with child, give them their expenses until they give birth to their child. After you cut your relationship with them, if they continue to suckle your children, give them their due payment. Resolve the issue of payment due with kindness amongst yourselves according to your legal customs. If the mother of the child, by not suckling the child causes problems, the father should pay for another woman to suckle his child. Those who are wealthy should give according to their wealth. Those who have limited income, let them give according to their wealth from what God has given them. God makes people responsible only according to their capacity. God bestows ease after difficulty' (65:6-7).
Thus, the Qur'an, as in many cases in this matter, in addition to reminding spouses about their duties towards one another, emphasizes the main principles of human morality, and invites individuals to be respectful to God and virtuous towards each other. Such an atmosphere of respect is necessary for the continuation of humane and legal relations. That is because institutions such as marriage with a unique aspect of privacy can hardly be controlled by outsiders. As a matter of fact, it is a considerable issue to refer to a judge or a referee in the case of disagreement between spouses. Yet, the fundamental issue is to prevent the problems from the very beginning, or to solve them at the very time of occurrence. This is in great part related to the personality, ethics, and characteristics of the two parties. It is highly difficult to keep the harmony of married life through various philosophical and legal orders without putting the faith of God in the heart without a sense of self-criticism and respect for people.
The Qur'an, in various places, draws attention via emphasis on the warm atmosphere of the home 'And one of the signs of His existence and power is this: He has created for you helpmates in order to make you feel comfortable with one another, and He ordained between you love and mercy. There are lessons in this sign for those who reflect' (30:21).
Islam addresses women and men equally and raises women, with its remarkable breath, to a blessed position. It has taken women from being objects for men to the level that paradise lay under their feet. After the emergence of Islam, no one could force such gentle creatures to adultery, whoredom, and impurity. She would not be treated as property; she could not be accused of impurity. Such an accusation would result in a severe punishment on the part of the accuser. 'And those who accuse honorable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony — They indeed are evil-doers. Save those who afterward repent and make amends. (For such) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth; And yet a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie' (24:4–7). Female children would not be looked down upon. Infanticide would be prohibited. 'Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you. Lo! The slaying of them is great sin,' The Qur'an has declared. Even if she is physically different, this is not a reason to be looked down upon. In the Qur'anic view of creation, Adam is created first and Eve is created from the same leaven (7:189). This Qur'anic picture reminds us that men and women are both equally humans. They are two entities that complete one another, as the Qur'an presents. The difference between both is based on certain purposes and designs and is not ontological. The Qur'anic verses that give the impression of the superiority of men over women are expressions with regard to certain capacities. 'Do not desire something that God has given more of to someone else other than you. Men have the share of what they have earned, and women have the share of what they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Lo! Allah is ever Knower of all things.' (4:32). The Qur'an reminds us of these differences, and that being from a certain gender should not be seen as a reason for complaint. There is no difference at all as far as human relationships are concerned. Whoever gains, gains for him or her.
As stated above, with regard to humanity and human relationships with God, there is no difference between women and men. They are equals concerning their rights and responsibilities. Woman is equal to man in the rights of freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom to live a decent life, and freedom of finance. Equality before the law, just treatment, marriage and founding a family life, personal life, privacy and protection are all among the rights of women. Her possessions, life and dignity are assured like that of men. Violation of any of these rights results in severe punishment. Yes, woman is free and independent before the law. Her femaleness does not limit or invalidate any of her eligibilities. When her rights are violated, she can seek justice just as men can. If someone takes her possessions wrongly, she has all rights of reclamation. Considering some qualities of women and men, Islam has developed certain legal prescriptions: for example, women are exempted from certain charges such as military services, going to war, taking care of the financial obligations of a family and herself, etc.
As for testimony, yes, the Qur'an says that when you cannot find two men to testify, find one trustworthy man and two women, for if one forgets the other, the other will remind her (2.282). It is not acceptable to deduce any meaning from this verse to indicate the superiority of men over women in humanity and in value. The fundamental issue here is the realization of justice. This is not a matter unique to women. The testimony of some male Bedouins has been rejected when the matter is related to the rights and realization of justice. The issue of testimony is related to a strong commitment to communal life. The involvement of witnesses in all segments of social life — even today a reality — the lack of witnessing many aspects of the life of people are always possible for some men and women. This issue of testimony in the Qur'an relates to oral testimony with regard to financial matters and loans. Otherwise, the testimony of women in writing, when needed, is accepted as equal by some scholars of Islamic law.
The Muslim World, Special Issue, July 2005 - Vol. 95 Issue 3 Page 325-471
..and see
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04 May 2007 Fri 10:41 pm |
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Quoting mltm: The real islam is another thing, the male dominant culture in islamic countries is another thing.
You blame some men in islamic countries to be hypocritical, but in fact watching porn, drinking alcohol, having sex without marriage are all forbidden to men. There are men who really obey these rules, and putting forward these things to someone to make her prevent to convert to İslam is nonsense. I really know men who are not hypocritical and who try to apply the rules as it should be. |
Oh yeah, where are these men such as you say there are in islamic countries? I have yet to meet one. After being married to 2 very different, but 'hypocritical' turks I have to say that they did exactly all the things mention here, watching porn, drinking alcohol, having sex without marriage (and let me add one more, beating his wife as I was by one of them) that as you say are 'supposably' forbidden to all men.
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04 May 2007 Fri 10:55 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting mltm: The real islam is another thing, the male dominant culture in islamic countries is another thing.
You blame some men in islamic countries to be hypocritical, but in fact watching porn, drinking alcohol, having sex without marriage are all forbidden to men. There are men who really obey these rules, and putting forward these things to someone to make her prevent to convert to İslam is nonsense. I really know men who are not hypocritical and who try to apply the rules as it should be. |
Thank you mltm for exposing more hypocricy in your culture.
I don't know how you manage to make sense out of all the things you guys are claiming. You must be extremely smart!!! So, the male dominant culture has nothing to do with the religion, but I thought you said that women are inferior to men according to islam... And how come men are never inhibited from 'breaking the law', but women are at every occasion...? (remember about the so called 'honor killings' when a woman is killed by her family for having pre-marital sex, but the man she had sex with has no consequences, obviously I don't think either of them should be punished)
So the last line of defense is saying that what you see is not the so called "real islam", that's laughable because none of you really know what "real islam" is. You can't agree on anything consistently and whenever there's a conflict you can't resolve, you say that these things are supposed to be individually interpreted.
To me, it's nonsense to join a group of people that behave hypocritically and don't do what they claim to believe in, even if I liked their religion (it's quite a small population of those who follow everything). |
When you choose a religion, you consider it joining a group? You would be responsable just of yourself after death, in İslam you won't be responsable of the things some terrorists or honor killers have done.
As I said, I do not practise any religion, but I cannot stand the prejudices against all the muslims and I cannot make something seem as it is not just because I don't like it or I want it to seem this way to support my thoughts, this is also hypocritical. I didn't say in İslam women were inferior to men, but as we have said, their duties are different and men protect their women.
And if we go back to some hundreds year, in the name of christianity, we can see how many cruel acts have been done. The cultures have changed but the religion stays the same, so it depends the interpretations.
And don't show the honor killings as a proof because it's the Kurds that do honor killings and it's a part of their cruel beliefs. If it was something that belonged to İslam and which is very unrealistic because according to İslam no one but Allah can take a life) then in all the muslim societies they should have been applied, but Turks do not apply it.
And you're wrong about your claim that always only woman is killed. in Taliban regime, a man that has had sex without marriage is also killed just like the woman. So, that's why we support secularism, because the people tend to use religion as they like.
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