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Forum Messages Posted by erdinc

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Thread: Flights are booked :)

211.       erdinc
2151 posts
 26 Oct 2006 Thu 02:13 am

Quoting Reinhard:

If you want to say another name for it , say Turkiye, what the heck is Turkia ???



Hi Reinhard,

"Turkia" is a word that we here in TurkishClass started using instead Turkey. I suggested using "Turkia" and many members are following my suggestion. It is very simple. The word in source langauge is "Türkiye" and its equalent in the target language is "Turkia".

-Why is it not Turkey?
-Because we are not happy being called after a silly animal. In another topic a foreigner mentioned saying "I love Turkey" and said that people didn't understand whether she was talking about the animal or the country.

-Why is it not Türkiye then in English?
-Because people need to write this word with their alphaber and there is no ü in English.

-Why is it not Turkiye with u then?
-Because this doesn't fit into the sound system of English. It is very difficult for a native English speaker to pronounce a word like "Turkiye". The "iye" at the end is not suitable according English pronounciations.

-Why is Turkia a good replacement for Turkey?
-Because it fits into English sound system and is easy to pronounce. Also there are many country names like this in English such as Bulgaria, Romania,... etc. Other than that, the word "Turkia" exists in other langauges. Another reason is that the sound that you hear when a native speaker says the word Turkia is very smillar to the sound in source langauge.

Make a survey among native English speakers and ask them whether they prefer Turkia or Turkiye. The majority will prefer the former.

Make another survey among native Turkish speakers and ask them whether the official country name should be Turkia or Turkey (hindi). The majority will choose the former.

In time we are going to change the official word to Turkia if we are not turkeys.



Thread: suffix questions again :-)

212.       erdinc
2151 posts
 26 Oct 2006 Thu 01:39 am

I don't understand what you mean by stressed suffix and unstressed suffix. I don't use these terms myself and haven't seen them being used.

I'm guessing that you are talking about this issue:

When "İstanbul" becomes "İstanbul'da" we say it as "İs-tan-bul-da" but when it is "İstanbul'a" it is differenct. The "a" at the end is impossible to stress. Why? Because we generate the sounds according syllables. The syllables here are "İs-tan-bu-la" so you can never stress the 'a' at the end.

Smillarly 'okul' becomes 'okula' in dative. We say "Okula gidiyorum". But we can never stress the "a" in okula since the syllables are "o-ku-la".

Have a look on this topic:
SYLLABLING - A Basic Issue Of Turkish Pronunciation
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_1466

Syllabling is one of the topics I teach in my lessons. I never understood why Turkish language sources ignore this basic issue.



Thread: suffix questions again :-)

213.       erdinc
2151 posts
 25 Oct 2006 Wed 09:29 pm

I have added more information on my above post. You are right. If the genitive is to be considered together with the other noun cases than we could consider adding the -le case as well.



Thread: suffix questions again :-)

214.       erdinc
2151 posts
 25 Oct 2006 Wed 08:59 pm

Some sources mention only five noun cases. Examples:
http://www.itusozluk.com/goster.php?t=ismin+halleri
http://www.fono.com.tr/?sf=icerik&makaleID=111&ktgID=236&hgsf=liste&ktgad=%C3%84%C2%B0talyanca%20Dilbilgisi&mn=2

Some sources mention six. This one for instance:
http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~guvenir/CATT/GrammarTutor/

It is possible to put the genitive in the same list. It doesn't make any difference where you put it. My point was that I was talking about the relation between noun cases and verbs. At this stage the genitive has no role but all the other noun cases have. It is, "-i sevmek, -e gitmek, -de yaşamak, -den hoşlanmak."

To a learner of Turkish as a second language, it is important to learn verbs with their noun cases. For instance a learner not only needs to know that 'sevmek' is 'to love' but that it is "-i sevmek". 'Sevmek' takes the -i case. All verbs take a case among the five noun cases.

In my lessons I use this "i bilmek", "-den hoşlanmak" version frequently. This help the learner to understand that noun cases are assigned to certain verbs.

Othervise ther learner is not going to understand why it is "İstanbul'u seviyorum" with 'u' and "Ali okula gitti" with 'a'.

Now I teach Turkish as a foreign language in two different schools in London and devide the subjects into smaller parts. There are many different subjects of course.

"Verbs and five noun cases" is one of the main subjects we have. At this stage the learner learns why it is,
"İstanbul çok güzel", "İstanbul'a gidiyorum", "İstanbul'u seviyorum", "İstanbul'da yaşıyorum" and "İstanbul'dan geliyorum".

The genitivie I have put into a different category. In this category we have these:
a. Possessive Adjectives (iyelik sıfatı ):benim, senin,...
b. Possessive Suffixes (İyelik eki ): arabam, araban, arabası
c. Genitive Case (Tamlayan Hali ): Ali'nin, İstanbul'un, etc.
d. Compound Nouns (isim tamlaması ) : "Ali'nin arabası", "İstanbul'un havası", "Benim adım" etc.

In the compound nouns subject we have the genitive and posessive suffix together. The first noun takes the genitive and the second noun takes the possessive suffix.

I see genetive and other cases in completely different categories because of usage and practical reasons.





Thread: suffix questions again :-)

215.       erdinc
2151 posts
 25 Oct 2006 Wed 08:46 am

Noun cases exist because of verbs that are used in these cases. When you are going you are going 'to' a place and when you are coming you are coming 'from' a place and living 'in' a place and staying 'at' or 'on' a place. So there is a relation between the verb and the noun. In English this relation is created with the prepositions "in, at, on, from, to". So we say "going to İstanbul", "coming from Ankara", "living in Ankara". In Turkish we have case suffixes.

If there is no conjugable verb then there is no case suffix.

On the other hand genitive is different. Unlike the case suffixes it doesn't create a relation between the verb and a noun but between two nouns.

A good strategy is to learn all case suffixes when you study the verbs. Case suffixes are there because there must be a verb that uses that case. In a sentence change the verb and the case suffix will change. Remove the verb and the case suffix will go. You can not study a case suffix without learning the verbs that use that case. For instance you are going 'to', looking 'to', smiling 'to' and you are coming 'from', falling 'from', escaping 'from' etc.

Genitive can be studied independent than verbs. It has to do with nouns. For instance "İstanbul'un havası", "Ali'nin evi" etc.



Thread: suffix questions again :-)

216.       erdinc
2151 posts
 25 Oct 2006 Wed 04:57 am

Yes, the genitive is considered to be a different category than five noun cases.



Thread: but suffixes keep bothering me...

217.       erdinc
2151 posts
 25 Oct 2006 Wed 04:53 am

Quoting slavica:

Now when I see “dönme”, “gitme”, “bakma”..., how could I know is it noun or imperative?



This is easy. If it has no case suffix than it is the imperative. For instance these are imperatives:
gel, git, bak, dur, yürü

And these are negative imperatives (again they don't have a case suffix but just the negative suffix -ma)
gelme, gitme, bakma, durma, yürüme

Since the -me -ma negative suffix is exactly the same as the -me, -ma verbal noun suffix you are right. They could be both but there is one important thing, the noun version takes a case suffix and it takes a case suffix almost all the time. So you will not see the noun version as "gelme, gitme, bakma, durma, yürüme" but you will see it as "gelmeye, germeyi, gelmeden, gitmenin, gitmeye, gitmeyi, bakmaya, bakmadan, bakmayı, durmaya, durmayı, yürümeye, yürümeyi" etc. with a case suffix and a buffer "y" most of the time.

There are three things that have the same appearance:
example verb: yüzmek (to swimm)

1. "yüzme" in "yüzme artık" (don't swimm anymore) is the negative imperative. yüz:stem and -me: negative suffix

2. "yüzme" in "yüzmeyi bırak" (stop swimming) is the verbal noun version. This is also called short imperative. An imperative is the name of a verb, thus it is a noun. -mak is the full infinitive and it is a noun. -ma is the short infinitive and it is a noun as well.
yüz: stem -me: verbal noun suffix y:buffer i: accusative case suffix because bırak takes accusative.

3. "yüzme" in "yüzme dersi" is a permanent noun. This is not the same as number 2. Only a few verbs can generate permanent nouns but all verbs can have short infinitive versions.
"yüzme dersi" (swimming lesson) is a noun modification thus the second noun gets a possessive suffix.



Thread: suffix questions again :-)

218.       erdinc
2151 posts
 24 Oct 2006 Tue 10:30 pm

Greetings,
That sentence must be build for educational pusposes as we would not hear this type of sentence very often.

Anyway here is the long answer to your second question:

Transitive Verbs:
These are the verbs that take an object. For instance "to sleep" is intransitive since it doesn't take an object. You can not sleep something. On the other hand "to cut" is transitive since it takes objects. You can cut something.

In Turkish, the object of a transitive verb will take a case suffix. In most cases this case suffix will be "accusative case" which is known as "-i case" (i hali).

Here is the full list for accusative case:
-ı, -i, -u, -ü

When you say "I love Turkia", 'to love' is transitive and takes the object 'Türkiye'. Therefore it will be "Türkiye'yi seviyorum". There is a buffer letter "y" in Türkiye'yi. Smillarly we say "Seni seviyorum" where sen takes the -i case.

Accusative is also called direct object case. It applies directly to the object. Accusative:
love the ... > -i sevmek
cut the ... > -i kesmek
want the ... > -i istemek

Some verbs take different cases. For instance "to look". You are not "looking THE" but you are "looking to". Therefore it takes the dative case. Dative case expresses the direction of the action.

The full list of dative case: -e, -a

look to > -e bakmak
go to > -e gitmek
take a shoot to > -e vurmak

Here is a full list:

1. name of case > 2. meaning > 3. full list according vowel harmony > 4. example noun > 5. example sentence

1. nominative case > 2. pure form > 3. no suffix > 4. İstanbul > 5. İstanbul çok güzel (Istanbul is very beautiful).

1. Dative > 2. direction: to > 3. -e, -a > 4. İstanbul'a > 5. İstanbul'a gidiyorum (I'm going to Istanbul).

1. Accusative > 2. applies to the object itself > 3. -ı, i ,u ,ü > 4. İstanbul'u > 5. İstanbul'u seviyorum (I love Istanbul).

1. Locative > 2. location: in, at, on > 3. -de, da, te, ta > 4. İstanbul'da > 5. İstanbul'da yaşıyorum (I'm living in Istanbul).

1. Ablative > 2. from > 3. -den, dan, ten, tan> 4. İstanbul'dan > 5. İstanbul'dan geliyorum (I'm coming from Istanbul).

The short answer is this:
vurmak takes -e case (to, towards). It is always "-e vurmak". Smillarly, it is always "-i sevmek". These are predefined things.



Thread: what about traveling for Turks...

219.       erdinc
2151 posts
 23 Oct 2006 Mon 11:44 pm

To get a visa to the UK you need to persuade the entry clearance officer that you have very strong reasons to return to your homeland and that you will go back at the end of your visa. Othervise you have no chance and you will be treated like a criminal and will get nothing in return for the huge spendings.

Having a permanent job, being a university student, traveling for education etc. are good reasons. "I will visit my girlfriend" or "I have relaives there" etc are bad reasons.

A few years back, people used to join a queue and overnight in the queue just to get into the building of foreign embassies to apply for a visa the next day. For a few years they have given tourism agencies the job to take applications for visas. So there is a certain tourism agency where you will apply for a visa to the UK. They guide applicants during the process. It is costy. My roughly guess that it will cost £200 for a years passport and £200 for visa application and getting all the documents ready.

You will find further information and contact details of For Ankara and İstanbul on this page:
http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1053446560963



Thread: Turkish Dictionary software

220.       erdinc
2151 posts
 23 Oct 2006 Mon 10:05 pm

If nothing else then I will make it more popular. Don't worry.



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