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Forum Messages Posted by erdinc

(1958 Messages in 196 pages - View all)
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Thread: Links for Turkish Literature

1101.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 11:58 pm

The first one we already have at number 8. I corrected the link after bliss' warning.
The second one I will check some time.



Thread: I. Mastar Hali - The Infinitive

1102.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 11:41 pm

Quoting miss_ceyda:

so the correct way to say i want to go is:
gitmeyi istiyorum
but we can still say
gitmek istiyorum
right?



When used without any direction

1. gitmek istiyorum
2. gitmeyi istiyorum

are both acceptable while the first one sounds better.

When used together with other words,

1. Eve gitmek istiyorum.
2. Eve gitmeyi istiyorum.

They are equally correct.

Quoting bod:


Would I be right that the meaningful translation for this is actaully:
"Do you know the way?"



Bod,
way is a good translation for yol. In fact we use yol not only as road but as way.
"Hata yapa yapa doğru yolu bulacaksın."


Quoting Elisa:


It's not about the fact that yüzmek (or whatever verb) is (in)transitive. It's about bilmek and istemek.

To make it a bit clearer, I looked it up in my course, this is what it says:

Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek don't get the accusative -i-

Examples:
- Bunu almak istiyorum
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyordum
- Ali iyi yüzmek biliyor
- Ingilizce yazmak biliyor musun?

In any other case the accusative -i- has to be added


This is what confuses me. This looks like a very strict rule in my course, but from what I read here, there should not be such rule..?



I'm sorry to dissapoint you but the information and the examples you gave are both incorrect.

- Bunu almak istiyorum > CORRECT
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyordum > CORRECT
- Türkçe öğrenmek istiyorum > CORRECT AS WELL
- Ali iyi yüzmek biliyor INCORRECT*
- Ingilizce yazmak biliyor musun? INCORRECT*

* These two are too bad mistakes a native speaker would never make. I think either your instructer isnt a native speaker or you remember his sentences wrong.

Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek don't get the accusative > INCORRECT

When verbs are object to another verbs they are not any more verbs but they are nouns. In Turkish the infinitive itself is a noun form of a verb. We have also a verbal suffix -me -ma which makes verbal nouns. This is not an important point as the following.

Both istemek and bilmek are transitive verbs. This means both of them take direct objects. A direct object is a noun or a noun phrase that refers to an object. In Turkish ve use the accusative case to build direct objects. In other words, both bilmek and istemek do take the accusative case no matter with any noun or a verbal noun.

I corrected the sentence:
"Verbs that are the object of istemek and bilmek both can take the accusative case."

Examples:
1. Türkçe öğrenmeyi istiyorum.
2. Bunu almayı istiyorum.
3. Kitap okumayı istiyorum.

4. Ali yüzmeyi biliyor.
5. İngilizce yazmayı biliyor musun?
6. Otomobil kullanmayı biliyor musun?

We can make even bilmek and istemek direct object of one another:

7. Gerçekleri bilmeyi isterdim.
8. Bir şeyi kibarca istemeyi bilmelisin.


Actually you can check any verb whether it is used in the i case (accusative) or not. If it is used in the i case than there is no limitation. Any verb that is transitive can be used with accusative case of nouns or accusative case of verbal nouns. Verbal nouns are nouns as well.

http://www.tdk.gov.tr/TDKSOZLUK/SOZBUL.ASP?kelime=bilmek



Thread: Verbal Nouns

1103.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 10:00 pm

This is an excellent point bod. There is theory that says men can learn a foreign language like a baby learns to speak.
In fact the theory grows stronger with time and could become more popular in the future. Kids for instance learn a foreign language easier. I think it is because they do less thinking about the foreign language from the perspective of their native language.

I think we need to stop thinking in our native langauge to make it easier to learn the foreign language. There are a few ways of thinking and some of them are impossible without words.

Analytic thinking requires the use of language. Therefore analytic thinking isn't the best way to learn a language. Analytic thinking is a scientific approach to topics which is common for adults while not so common for kids. Of coures it is very good to learn the rules but will hold back learning the language itself.

There is another way of thinking which is to grasp. We can grasp concepts without them being defined with words. For instance as I type now I don't think with Turkish. I have the ideas in mind and then search for English words to express my ideas. I recently looked at my essay "Istanbul my Love" and realised that it would have been difficult for me to translate it into Turkish, which has a different soul. For me the soul of Turkish is richer than English as I havent had too much experience with words. They still look a bit foreign to me.

The more experience you have with foreign words, the easier you will remember them. This experience doesnt have to be speaking or wiriting but it can be also listening and reading provided that you are not translating the text but are trying to grasp the words without thinking on them with your native language (without thinking on them analytically).
To grasp is something more intuitional. The sourrounding meanings (the secondary meanings) of a word can help as they will support the intuition.

In summary, about foreign languages I would say:
"Don't think, just accept it."

I have a theory that I havent mentioned in too many places yet. It hasn't been tested yet at all and it sounds a little silly. I think it is possible to learn a language with a single cinema film provided that the movie has speech in it in an average level and you have the patience to watch the movie as many times as needed. Of coures you need to do some dictionary work but it would be much better if you don't do any dictionary work for a month.
I would like to test my theory myself but I can't find a good French film.



Thread: I. Mastar Hali - The Infinitive

1104.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:31 pm

I think I now understood what Elisa meant. The verb in my example was istemek and it can take a direct object.


gitmek: intransitive verb. Doesnt take direct object (no accusative case with nouns or verbal nouns)

istemek: transitive verb. Takes direct object (accusative case) -i istemek

Bu dondurmayı istiyorum.
Yüzmeyi istiyorum.
Gitmeyi istiyorum.
Fransızca konuşmayı istiyorum.

yüzmek (to swim)*: intransitive verbs. Doesnt take direct object (accusative case)

bilmek: transitive verb. Takes direct object

İngilizce konuşmayı biliyor musun?
Yolu biliyor musun?

* we have other verbs as yüzmek which are transitive but yüzmek as to swim isnt.



Thread: I. Mastar Hali - The Infinitive

1105.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 09:09 pm

Gitmeyi has the accusative case suffix as bod explained. Maybe what you have read is something else. It could be this:

gidebilmek
koşabilmek
yapabilmek

Verbal nouns can take all case suffixes.

konuşma : Bu çok güzel bir konuşma oldu.
konuşmaya : Şu konuşmaya bak. Ne saçma.
konuşmayı : Sizinle yaptığımız bu konuşmayı hep hatırlayacağım.
konuşmada : Bu konuşmada beni rahatsız eden birşey var.
konuşmadan : Bu konuşmadan hoşlanmadım.

yüzme : Yüzme dersi alıyorum.
yüzmeye : Yüzmeye gidelim mi?
yüzmeyi : Yüzmeyi sever misin?
yüzmede : Sırt üstü yüzmede ne var? Çok kolay.
yüzmeden : Yüzmeden yüzmeye fark var.



Thread: Mixing verb tenses

1106.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 08:48 pm

Hi bod,
you got it right. It is a mixture of tenses. To call it a new tense or just a mood of tense doesnt make a difference. In Turkish we call them moodes of tenses. Some tenses have these moods. I will soon give a further explanation with examples.

By the way, your example is incorrect. It should be,

"Dün bütün gün matematik çalıştım."

We can use that tense in such a sentense:

Dün beni aradığında matematik çalışıyordum.
Yesterday when you called me, I was studying maths.




Thread: Dışarı

1107.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 08:28 pm

Dışarı, dışarısı or any other version of dış can take some case suffixes because these are noun based words (isim soylu kelime). When they modify a verb they are called adverbs.

Dışarısı is strictly a noun and is never used as an adverb. Dışarı is both an adverb and a noun. All versions of dışarı and dışarısı that have case suffixes are nouns only. When a case suffix is attached to a noun it cant be used as an adverb.


Examples:

Ahmet dışarı çıktı. > Adverb
Elimdeki kitabı pencereden dışarı attım. > Adverb

Dışarısı çok güzel. > Noun
Dışarıda güneş parlıyor. > Noun
Dışarıya çıkalım mı? > Noun



Thread: I. Mastar Hali - The Infinitive

1108.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 08:20 pm

The second sentence was missing "yine de". I now have corrected it. They all meant to be examples with "yine de".

The second and first sentence are the same with the exception that one uses gitmek and the other gitmeyi. Why have I done this? Easy: To show both can be used.



Thread: Vowel group practice

1109.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 06:01 pm

Yes Elisa is right. If a suffix has only two forms you obviously only check if the last vowel is a back vowel (a,ı,o,u) or if it's a front vowel (e,i,ö,ü).

The plural suffix (-ler, -lar), the dative case suffix (-e, -a), the locative case (-de, -da), the ablative case, (-den, -dan),...etc. have two forms considering vowels (of course the -de and -den suffixes have a -te and -ten form but this changes according the consonant and not vowels).

For verbs the infinitive suffix (-mek, -mak)and the negative suffix (-me, -ma) have two forms only.

Therefore we say gül+ü and gül+ler+i. The last vowel determines the correct suffix. As the plural -ler suffix changes the last vowel we change the next suffix accordingly.

I will give you a smillar example:

infinitive: yüzmek
simple past affirmative: yüzdü
simple past negative: yüzmedi

The negative suffix -me changes the last vowel. The last suffix becomes e after yüzme and we add di. Simple past negative has only two forms -me+di or +ma+dı while affirmative has four because tyhe negative suffix has only two forms.
This below is a quote from a previous post of mine.
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_2142

Rule 1 : Last vowel counts.
Look at the last vowel to decide which suffix to add.

If the last vowel is a sharp vowel than the suffix should have a sharp vowel.
If the last vowel is a deep vowel than the suffix should have a deep vowel.

Sharp vowels: e,i,ö,ü
Deep vowels: a,ı,o,u

Rule 2:
Some suffixes have 4 forms. If these 4 forms have the vowels ı,i,u,ü then follow this table:

If the last vowel is one of these "a","ı" > use "ı"
If the last vowel is one of these "e","i" > use "i"
If the last vowel is one of these "o","u" > use "u"
If the last vowel is one of these "ö","ü" > use "ü"




Thread: I. Mastar Hali - The Infinitive

1110.       erdinc
2151 posts
 29 Jan 2006 Sun 05:35 pm

Quoting Elisa:

and what if I wanted to say "It is SO cold outside but STILL I want to go swimming".
How would you put that contradiction in a sentence?



The other suggestion is also very good. Another alternative would be to use "yine de":

1. Dışarısı çok soğuk ama yine de yüzmeye gitmek istiyorum.
2. Dışarısı çok soğuk ama yine de yüzmeye gitmeyi istiyorum.
3. Dışarısı öyle soğuk ki, ama yine de yüzmeye gitmek istiyorum.



(1958 Messages in 196 pages - View all)
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