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Forum Messages Posted by erdinc

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Thread: can anyone explain this?

941.       erdinc
2151 posts
 07 Mar 2006 Tue 03:32 pm

Quoting Kadir37:

atgı is not correct
At -> Atı -> Ata
There is no suffix "-gı"
If last letter is "t" sometimes this letter doesn't change. You will learn these words by the time.



'At' doesnt follow the consonant mutation not because it is ending with 't' but because it is a single syllabling word. Most words that have one syllable don't follow consonant mutation no matter the last letter being p, ç, t or k.

hanan,
There is no 'gi' or 'ği' suffix.

'At' is Turkish word and can either mean 'to throw' or 'a horse'. 'Atkı' is another word and means 'a scarf'. The word 'atkı' has no suffix and has nothing to do with at. They are unrelated words.

The consonants p, ç, t, k can change to b, c, d, g(or ğ ) when they are followed by a suffix that starts with a vowel. Obviously the letter p,ç,t,k has to be at the end to change after a suffix that starts with a vowel.

Almost all single syllabling words are outside this consonant mutation rule. The word has to have more than one syllable (more than one vowel because in Turkish number of syllables is the same as the number the vowels)

Daydreamer gave a correct example to this above. Here is another one:

Bardak: a glass

If I want to use the accusative case, as you know I add the suffix -ı or -i. The accusative is used for something that is the direct object of a transitive verb.

For instance kırmak (to break) is a transitive verb in both languages. It is transitive because you can apply this verb to an item. In this case we use the accusative case for nouns.

I broke the glass.
Bardağı kırdım.

bardağı: bardak+ı > noun (bardak) + accusative case suffix (ı )
Bardağı is an example of consonant mutation.

Words with a single syllable like 'at' dont follow the consonant mutation. We say:

I have seen the horse.
Atı gördüm.

There are very few exceptions with single syllables that do follow the mutation. The most known is 'çok'.



Thread: Explanation please

942.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 06:55 pm

In English to ask yes/no question we change the word order like this:

Ali has gone.
Has Ali gone?

In Turkish we cant do this. Changing word order doesnt create a question. Usually it doesnt make any difference. To make yes/no questions in Turkish we use the question suffix -mi.

Ali gitti.
Ali gitti mi?

The question suffix -mi has four forms. These are -mı, -mi, -mu, -mü. We pick the correct one according vowel harmonly rules.

Before picking the -mi suffix we look to the last vowel.
-mı comes after a and ı
-mi comes after e and i
-mu comes after o and u
-mü comes after ö and ü


Why is this so? What are the vowel harmony rules?

1. Major vowel harmony rule: A back vowel is followed by a back vowel and a front vowel is followed by a front vowel.

2. Minor vowel harmony rule: A flat vowel is followed by a flat vowel and a round vowel is followed by a round vowel.

In Turkish we have eight vowels: a,e,ı,i,o,ö,u,ü

Four of them are back vowels: a,ı,o,u
Four of them are front vowels: e,i,ö,ü

Four of them are flat vowels: ı,i,a,e
Four of them are round vowels: o,ö,u,ü

The words flat, round, back and front reflect to the movements of our mouth when we generate the sounds.

According these rules
1. a,ı,o,u is followed by a,ı,o,u
2. e,i,ö,ü is followed by e,i,ö,ü
3. ı,i,a,e is followed by ı,i,a,e
4. o,ö,u,ü is followed by o,ö,u,ü
5. According 1 and 3 > a,ı, is followed by a,ı
6. According 1 and 4 > o,u, is followed by o,u
7. According 2 and 3 > e,i, is followed by e,i
8. According 2 and 4 > ö,ü, is followed by ö,ü

From number 5,6,7 and 8 we can understand what suffix to add. The question suffix has only four forms and not eight: -mı, -mi, -mu, -mü. So at number 5 for instance a and ı was followed by either a or ı but we dont have a question suffix as "ma". So regarding the question suffix we say a and ı is followed by 'mı'.

5. According 1 and 3 > a,ı, is followed by -mı
6. According 1 and 4 > o,u, is followed by -mu
7. According 2 and 3 > e,i, is followed by -mi
8. According 2 and 4 > ö,ü, is followed by -mü

Example:
Ali akıllı mı? (the last vowel before the question suffix is ı and we know that ı takes mı
Ali doktor mu? (the last vowel before the question suffix is o and we know that o takes mu)

Exercise:
Ali çalışkan ...?
Ali kör ...?
Ali Istanbullu ...?

Below you see the personal suffixes. As you see the third person singular has no personal suffix. Therefore we say:

"Ali doktor mu?" or "O doktor mu?" (Is HE a doctor?)

But if I want to use for instance the second person singular, then I should say:
"Sen doktor muXXX?" Here I need to add a personal suffix.

Which one should I add? There are four: -sın, -sin, -sun, -sün

Remember, the last vowel counts. What is the last vowel in "Sen doktor mu...?" It is the 'u' in 'mu'. What do I use after u? Look at number 6 above. I use either o or u. But There is no version with o. So I use -sun:

"Sen doktor musun?" is the correct sentence.
Second person plural would be:

"Siz doktor musunuz?" (mu+sunuz)

Personal suffixes:
Singular
1. : -(y)ım, -(y)im, -(y)um, -(y)üm
2. : -sın, -sin, -sun, -sün
3. : --
Plural
1. : -(y)ız, -(y)iz, -(y)uz, -(y)üz
2. : -sınız, -siniz, -sunuz, -sünüz
3. : -lar, -ler



Thread: Do you have a fork please?

943.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 04:39 pm

Sorry Bod, the main translation for olmak is "to be". The sentence "Bir çatal olabilir miyim lütfen?" would translate as:
-Can I be a fork please?.
-Sorry sir. This is impossible.
(-Üzgünüm efendim. Bu imkansız.)



Thread: question about this translations

944.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 04:37 pm

Quoting xXxPaigexXx:


'I want your email'...
this was the correct translation

Senin e-mail adresi istiyorum
Senin e-posta adresi istiyorum



The correct translation should have "adresini":
"Senin e-mail adresini istiyorum."
Here, senin takes possessive suffix -ni.

Changing word orders generally makes small changes on the meaning. These are small nuances according what word is stressed. So generally, changing word order doesnt make a change worth to consider. But we can't change everything.

"e-mail adresi" is a noun modification. It is two words that express on object. We cant make changes with e-mail adresi. "email adresi" is a noun modification and it has a personal adjective "senin" that modifies it.
In other words "senin e-mail adresini" is a noun phrase.
"E-mail adresi" can't be devided since it is a noun modification and senin can't be placed elsewhere than in front of it since it is a noun phrase. Adjectives always are placed in front of nouns.

"E-mail adresini istiyorum" is possible without 'senin' )your) since 'senin' is included in the possessive suffix 'in' in adresi+ni.

Elisa,
it is "pazartesi akşamı" with a possessive suffix as this is a noun modification.

(Ben) her pazartesi akşamı Türkçe öğrenmek için okula gidiyorum.



Thread: i'm confused...

945.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 04:19 pm

Ben her iki cümle için de simple present tense kullanmazdım. İkinci cümleler için present continuous tense kullanırdım. İlk cümleler içinse daha farklı şekilde söylerdim.

- Mehmet 'seni seviyorum' demez.(Onu iyi tanıyorum)

Mehmet isn't the kind of person who says "I love you".
It's not Mehmet's style to say "I love you".


- Mehmet 'seni seviyorum' demiyor.(Tüm ısrarıma rağmen)
Mehmet isn't saying "I love you".

-Karım beni aldatmaz
My wife isn't the kind of person who would cheat on me.
My wife wouldn't cheat on me.

-Karım beni aldatmıyor.
My wife isn't cheating on me.



Thread: Do you have a fork please?

946.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 04:15 pm

Yes, "Bir çatal alabilir miyim lütfen?" would translate as "Could I get a fork please?". This is an idiom. When we say "can I get" we actually mean "bring me" but for being polite we use that idiom.



Thread: Do you have a fork please?

947.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 03:50 pm

Accusative is grammatically correct but has a different meaining.

"çatalı istiyorum": I want the fork.
"Bu çatalı istiyorum": I want this fork.
"Şu çatalı istiyorum": I want that fork.
"Gümüş çatalı istiyorum": I want the silver fork.

Accusative is directed to an object. But in our case there is no certain object.

Çatal istiyorum. I want a fork
(a fork means any fork, not a certain fork)

1. Çatal istiyorum lütfen.
2. Bir çatal istiyorum lütfen.
3. Bir çatal lütfen.
4. Bir çatal alabilir miyim lütfen.

These four are all correct.



Thread: Do you have a fork please?

948.       erdinc
2151 posts
 06 Mar 2006 Mon 03:37 pm

* Bana bir çatal var mı? incorrect

* Bana çatalınız var mı? incorrect

'Bana' means 'to me'. So you can't sonstruct a sentence with "fork" and "to me". It is like asking "Have you a fork to me?".

* Sizde bana bir çatal var mı? incorrect

Again 'bana' causes problem in this sentence. Instead 'bana' if we had used 'benim için' it would be a slight improvment but still incorrect since this time the meaning is unsuitable.

Benim için bir çatal var mı?
Is there a fork for me?

This sounds like, the person is supposed to keep forks that are left for you to take later. This sentence would be suitable in a hotel to ask the reception if you have a message:

Benim için mesaj var mı?
Are there messages for me?

"Benim için çatalınız var mı?"
"Do you have a fork for me?" Again the meaning is incorrect. This sentence implies that the person has many different sizes of forks.

Sizde benim için bir çatal var mı?
Do you have a fork for me.
Again the same meaning as above.

Bir çatalı istiyorum lütfen.
This sentence is almost correct. İstemek here takes çatal without the accusative. "bir çatal" is "a fork" (any fork)and we can't use accusative where the object is defined. As you might have realised I normally translate accusative with "the". The correct sentence would be:

"Bir çatal istiyorum lütfen"

This is a very polite and correct way of asking for a fork in a restourant. In general "istiyorum lütfen" is one of the main ways to ask for something politely to a person who is supposed to give it to you.

My version would be as follows:
"Bir çatal alabilir miyim lütfen?"



Thread: Olives

949.       erdinc
2151 posts
 04 Mar 2006 Sat 06:16 pm

Yes they have a small pepper instead the pip which is taken out.



Thread: English loanwords in the Turkish language

950.       erdinc
2151 posts
 04 Mar 2006 Sat 04:52 pm

Quoting Elisa:

I've seen the word kuaför many times though.
But that one comes from French.



Yes you are right. Kuaför is a well known and very common word. I couldnt recognise the French word coiffeure. I missed that one.



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