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Forum Messages Posted by erdinc

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Thread: English loanwords in the Turkish language

951.

erdinc
2151 posts

04 Mar 2006 Sat 06:31 am

1. Teknoloji : usage 100%

2. email : 90% eposta 10%

3. spam 100% (this is the only option for that term but this term is not so common anyway)

4. -there is no word for snapshot.

5. 'Ã§ıktı' means printout. "Ã‡ıktı almak" to take printouts. Or "yazdırmak" can be used. No English word here.

6. printer:30% yazıcı:%70

7. scanner %60 tarayıcı 40%

8. RAM 100%

9. hard-disk : %85 sabit disk 15%

10. chip 20% Ã§ip 80%

11. online 95% Ã§evrimiÃ§i 5%

12. internet 100%

13. alışveriş merkezi (this is the word for shopping center and the other words we don't have)

14. know-how I have heard some Turks who know English speaking about know-how as it is written. We have countles alternatives to this but there is no single agreement yet. This word is very uncommon.

15. mortgage 100% this word is just introduced in 2005. Currently we are trying different translations. A few newspapers are using "tutulu satış" (held sale)

The words that don't have 100% usage are still new words. There has to pass more time untill the public decides on one or another. Loanwords in Turkish are not known as loanwords. Turks think they are Turkish words. Only when they learn English they realise the smillarities. Of course many Turks never learn even the basic English.

There are many Turks who use the words teknoloji, modern, kÃ¼ltÃ¼r, otobÃ¼s, minibÃ¼s, motor, metre, kilo, doktor etc without even knowing that these words exist in other languages.

Considering Turks older than 40 I would say,
about 40% would not know that these words exist in another language,
about 50% would know that they exist in another languages but would not be able to tell you what word it is in English for instance.
about 10% will mention 'technology', culture, doctor etc.

Considering Turks younger than 40 I would say,
about 20% would not know that these words exist in another language,
about 40% would know that they exist in another languages but would not be able to tell you what word it is in English for instance.
about 40% will tell you 'technology' is the source for teknoloji and 'doctor' is the source for doktor and 'kÃ¼ltÃ¼r' comes from 'culture'. Nobody will bother with French etc.

I don't have the statistics but I think 30% of Turks speak or understand English at a basic or a higher lever. Those who can have a conversation with an English speaker (a simple conversation like talking about the weather or about football) should be 10% or less.

Thread: English loanwords in the Turkish language

952.

erdinc
2151 posts

04 Mar 2006 Sat 01:11 am

Quote:

It still remains a question for me when you say that almost 1% of the Turkish loanwords are left written as they originally are in English (like web, chat and show).

This is because there just a few of these kind words that have a strong resistance. They resist to be written according Turkish phonetics. They have a too strong "visual image". I don't know how else to call this. I just made this term up. The strong visual imgage of a word is supported by TV or Internet. We have seen for a long time the words show, chat, web etc. on screens and boards, advertisings etc. Of course a Turkish spelling is suggested for these words as well but the public doesnt accept it since the strong visual image of these words.

The words text and sex are also interesting examples. They are used with their English spelling as well as with their Turkish spelling tekst and seks. But texts is going to be omited with time since it will be replaced with "metin".

Quote:

a) Is it the TDK who decided to leave such words like this?

No of course not. If it had been up to them they would even change the loanwords and replace them with pure Turkish words. instead otobÃ¼s they suggested gÃ¶tÃ¼rgeÃ§ but nobody has even heard that word. You can't change a word by force. Of course the reform years were different. We changed everything from the alphabet to clothes, from the calendar to words. During the reforms the country turned its face from East to West.

Quote:

b) If yes on what purposes? Why have not they been written in Turkish like most of the other borrowed words?

This is because the visual image of the word being to strong. The word jean had a strong resistance as well. People didnt want to write it as cin and for a while it was written as jean but at the end it was replaced buy a Turkish word "kot" so finally we got rid of the trouble.

Quote:

c) When you write this 'English' version of a word do you write it in italics or in inverted commas?

I think you wanted to say 'the' instead 'this'. Both are acceptable. Inverted commas are more common. If you are talking about a word you need to distinguish the words from your own words. The best way is to write it like 'this'.

Quote:

d) Modern words like those from Technology, Science and Music are all being given Turkish orthography or is there an amount of them left as they are in English?

Yes all of them get a Turkish spelling. We say molekÃ¼ler biyoloji, morfolofjik analiz.
Open this page and you will find the names of departments of a Turkish University. You will see many smillar examples of loanwords.
http://www.odtu.edu.tr/academic/units.php

Quote:

e) Regarding the msn users and the 13-17 years old people, is it clear like that when you tell me that people from 20 years of age (or even a bit younger) start writing 'good' Turkish? Since they have been using 'wrong' English for almost 5 years don't they get familiar with this type of writing and continue using it?

Usually the misuse of language is related with the desire of catching other people's attention. When the people grow older they are less likely to do these things as the young people do. But of course lots of things will remain. Also some guys just can't resist to show up that they know some English. Some Turkish party girls are likely to use a few English words in their dialogues.

I have seen some kids who write evet as ewet.

Quote:

I think that teenagers and people of this age are much more familiar with English than adults. So do they still accept English loanwords written in Turkish or leave such words written as they are in English?

They have grown with the loanwords. Until you learn English you don't realise that the words are loanwords and you see them as Turkish words. There will be many long years passes by before a Turkish teenager learns English and it is not also so easy for Turks to learn English. Many Turks find it difficult. Speaking an average English is usually not the case for the average Turkish teenager.

Thread: 3 word translation plzzzzzzzz

953.

erdinc
2151 posts

04 Mar 2006 Sat 12:27 am

Where is Thomas? This is exactly what I was telling him. We didn't have something as "kendine iyi bak" in the past but Turks who speak English made this up being inspired from the term "take care". So this is purely English effect over Turkish.

Thread: "Diye"

954.

erdinc
2151 posts

04 Mar 2006 Sat 12:24 am

Annem ne yaptı diye dÃ¼şÃ¼nÃ¼yorum.

Geliyor musun diye dÃ¼şÃ¼nÃ¼yorum.
Geliyorsun diye hazırlık yaptım.

Quote:

annem ne yaptı diye dÃ¼şÃ¼nÃ¼yor
geliyorsun diye dÃ¼şÃ¼nÃ¼yorum

Thread: Describing a noun by a process

955.

erdinc
2151 posts

04 Mar 2006 Sat 12:14 am

'yenmiş' and 'saklanmış' are correct.

It is better to accept yakmak and yanmak as two different verbs. Yakmak is "to burn" as in "Bu evi yakmak istiyorum" (I want to burn this house) and yanmak is "to burn up" as in "ağaÃ§ yandı" (The tree has burnd up).

Yakmak is the action who does burn something. Yanmak is the action of something that burns up. We can say "sıcaktan yanıyorum" (I'm burning from the hot weather, it is too hot for me). We can also say "İÃ§im yanıyor" which means "my inside is burning (of unhappiness or regret)". So I think it is better to accept "yanmak" as a different verb.

Yakmak has a passive form which is yakılmak (to be burnt).

Bu ağacı yakacağım.
Bu ağaÃ§ yakılacak.

Thread: common sentence eng-turk trans, needed plz

956.

erdinc
2151 posts

03 Mar 2006 Fri 11:56 pm

Lokantada yanındaki hatun kimdi?
Who was that chick with you in the restourant?

In this sentence piliÃ§ is also possible but is considered a too mannish slang. Hatun is very suitable here I think if the person who asks is a female.

Thread: a curious question

957.

erdinc
2151 posts

03 Mar 2006 Fri 11:52 pm

Since the venue wont care about your age doesnt mean that you wont get into trouble if you are younger than 18.

You could get into trouble. Also you have to have some ID with you in Turkia. Every person has to carry an ID and has to show it when asked by the police.

Thread: English loanwords in the Turkish language

958.

erdinc
2151 posts

03 Mar 2006 Fri 06:25 am

Quote:

So, am I saying well when I say that new English loanwords in Turkish are written as they are phonetically spelled?

Yes thats right.

Quote:

1) Are tentatives being made to create a new word before transforming the loanword in Turkish spelling?

No. I think this has never been an issue.

Quote:

2) Who decide how a loanword is going to be written..the TDK or another standard authority? Is there an orthographic rule about such words?

The only place who has the power to decide is the TDK. They say the last word. Most new words in todays Turkish have been introduced during the language reforms in 1930's. They have replaced a few thousand words which were originated from Persian and Arabic with modern Turkish words.
Turkia was switching from Ottoman Turkish to modern Turkish. Ottoman Turkish was 50% Turkish, 30% Arabic and 20% Persian.
The reform years were different since there was no time to wait for things to change slowly. They just made up thousands of words. After the reforms, the change progressed in a natural flow as it should be. For instance if there is new term authors or intellectuals will find themselves the Turkish word and its spelling. They will use it in books, newspapers etc. If it sounds alright it will be have acceptance and if not it wont. There are countless words that authors were using (after the 1940's till today) but the words were not accepted. Therefor in some old dated books we can see some words that look like a modern word but was keept off from the language.
Even though the change from Ottoman Turkish to Modern Turkish progressed in its natural flow after the 1940's still it was very fast. This means we can't easly read a book that has been written in the 1940, 1950 or even 1960. Many books that are written before 1960 look like a foreign language now. Of course it depends on the time. For instance our "National Anthem" is written in 1921 and is very hard to understand for the man on street. Of course we teach its meaning at schools so people understand what it says.

Loanwords don't follow most gramatical rules in Turkish. For instance they don't follow the vowel harmony rules.

Example: 'domates' and 'patates' have both back vowels and front vowels.

But they follow the syllabling rules which is very important because we generate the sounds according syllables. Our syllabling rules can be found here:

SYLLABLING - A Basic Issue Of Turkish Pronunciation
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_1466

I have formulized the rules in this thread.

Quote:

3) There seems that once a word is 'made' Turkish everyone begins writing that word in that form in Turkey...even the media (newspapers, TV and websites)?

I believe that media promote language and make words acceptable by people. In Maltese for instance most of the loanwords tend to be left as they are originally in English since the media do not promote the Maltese version of them. Since Malta is officially bilingual (Maltese and English), the Maltese people are very familiar with English words and they find it difficult to write English loanwords in Maltese orthography (for example "rawndebawt" for the English "roundabout") and so most of them use "roundabout" written in inverted commas or in italics.

When it is clear how to pronounce the word in Turkish then there is only one way to write it. Turkish is a phonetically language. So we write as we speak. Assuming there is a Turkish primary school kid at the age of ten. Again lets assume the kid has never seen or heard the Turkish words kondÃ¼ktÃ¶r or karantina in his life. We give him a piece of paper and a pen and then tell him to write kondÃ¼ktÃ¶r and karantina and the kid will write them correctly without having seen the word before in his entire life. You could test by yourself if you come to Turkey. I think most kids have never seen the word kondÃ¼ktÃ¶r as it is so uncommon.

Quote:

4) Isn't there a period of time where people use both words (the word as it is written in English and the same word in Turkish), because they see the new word written in Turkish strange (as Deli is saying)?

No there is no such time. We write as we speak and we speak as we write.

Quote:

5) Which do you think that Turkish people accept first - a new word created in Turkish or a loanword given Turkish spelling?

A loanword will be accepted first. TDK is introducing hundreds of Turkish replacements for loanwords but very few of them get acceptance by the public.

But if the word is derived from another word with constructive suffixes then it will have acceptance very fast and without a problem since all the constructive suffixes are known by Turks and their meaning is clear.

These are constructive suffixes. They make a new words either from a noun or verb. All of them have their own meaning.

-ci, : a person who is doing a job related to xxx (striptiz > striptizci)
-lik,: something that is for xxx (sportmen > sportmenlik)
-li, : something with xxx (sosis > sosisli)
-sız,: something without xxx (sezaryen > sezaryensiz)
-si, : something that is like xxx (plastik > plastikimsi)
-gen,: a person or thing that has the feature to xxx
-giÃ§,: a persons occupation who is doing the job that is called to xxx

example 1:
rÃ¶ntgenci :a voyeur, peeping Tom

As you see here the suffix -ci has served to make a new word fron rÃ¶ntgen (roentgen, x-ray). We also use the word rÃ¶ntgen in its normal medical meaning. This is a good example how public makes up new words.

example 1:
We have the word 'matematik'. Now do we again turn to English and wait to tell us how to call a mathematician? No, we don't. We say 'mathematikÃ§i'. Again the same suffix has served well.

When mobile phone first arrived nobody has made the final desicion on how to call them. The public already new how to call them. The man on the street made up the word "cep telefonu" (pocket phone) and this is it. This is the Turkish way of creating new words.

Thread: Part-time jobs in turkey beside your study

959.

erdinc
2151 posts

02 Mar 2006 Thu 11:09 pm

Maybe you can mention where you are going to study and where exactly the place is located. So you would get better information. You might consider opening a new thread names "Do you know dormitrories close to ..."

Distance is important. I can't help you with other details but I know about the insurance thing. If you are a student of a university the universities health clinic will provide service for you but this will be limited to basic things. You need to contact with the university about your status during your stay.
If your boyfriend is a medical student he will help you on this issue.

You could also open a new thread named as "How much does a university student spend?".

Thread: Part-time jobs in turkey beside your study

960.

erdinc
2151 posts

02 Mar 2006 Thu 10:25 pm

What do you want to know about İzmir dormitories? Maybe there might be people here who live and study in İzmir and could give you information about İzmir dormitories.

About your boyfriend staying at the dormitrory I already gave you information.

Izmir will be fine in many ways but choose a modern dormitrory. There are some religious organisations who are in this bussiness and even the ordinary citizens of İzmir wouldnt send their doughters to such a place. You need to get information before you decide on a place. There are many details to take into account.

(1958 Messages in 196 pages - View all)
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